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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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In a vacuum, either the beard or the caravans would have been kind of a shaky casus belli. But the beard in response for demanding an explanation for the caravans would never have ended in anything but war. If a foreign ambassador arrives with proof that your people are attacking their people, there's not a lot of middle ground to be had. You either disavow or you're at war. Caledor II choosing not to disavow Malekith and the Druchii made war almost inevitable, but humiliating the ambassador made it utterly unavoidable. There's only two interpretations that could be taken from that: either the Asur were attacking Dwarven caravans as a part of Ulthuan's foreign policy and shaving the Ambassador was the cherry on top of Ulthuan's declaration of war, or that Ulthuan believes Dwarven lives have no value and so saw no problem with Elves killing Dwarves for profit and so the Ambassador demanding an explanation for it was an insult to be repaid in kind.
 
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Eliar said:
Welp.

Boy were they wrong or?
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Yeah, the fact that everyone has to kind of pretend that it's not actually possible for the King to be an utter twerp that didn't really think things through, and instead have to take their thoughtless and impulsive words and deeds as sober and ironclad declarations of government policy, is a pretty major flaw in absolute monarchies. There are a lot of really bad parts of history that might not have happened if 'the monarch is being a wanker, let's collectively pretend he didn't say/do that' was an option.
 
Shinji117 said:
Ah, right Caledor I bites it in a naval battle v Dark Elves, and from there you get Caledor II and his...need to be a warrior king.
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Kinda like Snorri Halfhand, the heir of the High King, who's openly plotting to start a war between the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan in basically every scene he gets put in. IIRC, he actually assaults and burns down an elven city/town just before the infamous beard shaving incident.

Edit: Unless you want to basically erase his whole character, while Caledor II was an impulsive wanker the only way he could have plausibly avoided a major war with the Dawi long term would have been to successfully assassinate the High King's heir, and never get caught. Because otherwise he would have had a war about five minutes after the High King died. Which, given that Snorri Halfhand expressed his opinion of elves in hearing range of Caledor II's much wiser brother, was something Caledor II probably knew.
 
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Boney said:
In a vacuum, either the beard or the caravans would have been kind of a shaky casus belli. But the beard in response for demanding an explanation for the caravans would never have ended in anything but war. If a foreign ambassador arrives with proof that your people are attacking their people, there's not a lot of middle ground to be had. You either disavow or you're at war. Caledor II choosing not to disavow Malekith and the Druchii made war almost inevitable, but humiliating the ambassador made it utterly unavoidable. There's only two interpretations that could be taken from that: either the Asur were attacking Dwarven caravans as a part of Ulthuan's foreign policy and shaving the Ambassador was the cherry on top of Ulthuan's declaration of war, or that Ulthuan believes Dwarven lives have no value and so saw no problem with Elves killing Dwarves for profit and so the Ambassador demanding an explanation for it was an insult to be repaid in kind.
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While DL is obviously your playground Boney, AFAIK, the Dwarfs didn't turn up with proof. They turned up demanding recompense, having already decided the Asur were guilty. If you want a more reasonable interpretation, you could say the idea was that the Dwarfs would ask for recompense, Caledor would grant it, by spinning it as Ulthuan being generous with her allies (thereby saving face by not submitting to demands from foreign sovereigns, which would have collapsed his authority) and then the Dwarfs show their proof later, and the wergild could be returned if Ulthuan proved someone else did it. Everyone goes home happy. Unfortunately, the Ambassador came on too strong and Caledor sucked at diplomacy and didn't realise it was a show.
 
I don't have a copy of the Dwarven army book on hand, but is that where proof is mentioned, or a more detailed account of what happened is given? The HE Army Book doesn't bring up any proof at all, and instead has the ambassador jump straight to accusations and then draw his axe on the Phoenix King (an ambassador drawing their weapon on the leader they're visiting has probably lost ambassadorial protection, tbh) while swearing on his beard (wince) that the only way he'll leave is with the wergild.

Swearing by his beard that he would not leave until justice was served, he drew his axe in front of the king, demanding recompense. Since the Sundering, none have ever dared to draw a weapon in anger within the palace of the Phoenix King. Though it was our right to slay him where he stood, we were merciful and, condeming him by his own words, did shave him of his wiry beard and cast him out from Ulthuan.
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High Elf Army Book, 6th Ed, pg 56
 
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Boney said:
Yeah, the fact that everyone has to kind of pretend that it's not actually possible for the King to be an utter twerp that didn't really think things through, and instead have to take their thoughtless and impulsive words and deeds as sober and ironclad declarations of government policy, is a pretty major flaw in absolute monarchies. There are a lot of really bad parts of history that might not have happened if 'the monarch is being a wanker, let's collectively pretend he didn't say/do that' was an option.
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Yea when it is not *Just* King but God-King or Dragon-King or Phoenix King which compounds the authority of the monarch with divine gravitas things can get very bad,
 
Shinji117 said:
I don't have a copy of the Dwarven army book on hand, but is that where proof is mentioned, or a more detailed account of what happened is given? The HE (6th edition) doesn't bring up any proof at all, and instead has the ambassador draw his axe on the Phoenix King (an ambassador drawing their weapon on the leader they're visiting has probably lost ambassadorial protection, tbh) while swearing on his beard (wince) that the only way he'll leave is with the wergild.
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Dwarfs 6th edition just says they sent "envoy and ambassadors". 7th/6th revised and 8th both mention that the Dwarfs had evidence, but doesn't say they presented it to the Elves. Both also say they did a bit of Elf murder (possibly of actual perpetrators, possibly not). Of course, it's also possible that although the Dwarfs had evidence, they didn't have anything they could usefully present (written orders can be faked, and I would be unsurprised to find that the Dwarfs had various bits of Elven armour and such from trade and so on). Actually I suspect the only really useful proof they could have produced would have been a live prisoner, and Dwarfs aren't super into that when they're on a vengeance kick.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
While DL is obviously your playground Boney, AFAIK, the Dwarfs didn't turn up with proof. They turned up demanding recompense, having already decided the Asur were guilty. If you want a more reasonable interpretation, you could say the idea was that the Dwarfs would ask for recompense, Caledor would grant it, by spinning it as Ulthuan being generous with her allies (thereby saving face by not submitting to demands from foreign sovereigns, which would have collapsed his authority) and then the Dwarfs show their proof later, and the wergild could be returned if Ulthuan proved someone else did it. Everyone goes home happy. Unfortunately, the Ambassador came on too strong and Caledor sucked at diplomacy and didn't realise it was a show.
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There's a lot of different versions of that exchange with varying levels of proof or demands, but all of them could have been at least somewhat defused by the Phoenix King just saying something along the lines of "it sucks that happened but I'm pretty sure my citizens didn't do it". Even if you go full idiot ball and have the Ambassador completely flip out and attack the Phoenix King in response and need to be disarmed or even killed, there were other Dwarven witnesses that could have gone home with the body and explained that writer fiat kicked in and it really wants a war. That wouldn't have solved the entire issue but it would have reframed it enough that things could move forward. The only reason not to explain matters is that it would be mildly embarrassing to explain that the King of Ulthuan is no longer the King of all Elves.

Eliar said:
Yea when it is not *Just* King but God-King or Dragon-King or Phoenix King which compounds the authority of the monarch with divine gravitas things can get very bad,
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In most cultures, monarchy inherently has divine gravitas built in. Divine Right of Kings, Dei Gratia, Augustus, Mandate of Heaven, Heavenly Emperor, Son of the Sun, and so forth. It might not be a form of divine gravitas you can walk up to and toast a bagel on, but it was just as firmly believed. That's the root of the problem, it got in the way of being able to recognize the monarch as flawed and fallible.
 
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Eliar said:
Yea when it is not *Just* King but God-King or Dragon-King or Phoenix King which compounds the authority of the monarch with divine gravitas things can get very bad,
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I'm not sure if you just meant that it can get even worse under those circumstances, but if not you might be underestimating "just kings".
 
Boney said:
There's a lot of different versions of that exchange with varying levels of proof or demands, but all of them could have been at least somewhat defused by the Phoenix King just saying "it sucks that happened but I'm pretty sure my citizens didn't do it". Even if you go full idiot ball and have the Ambassador completely flip out and attack the Phoenix King and need to be disarmed or even killed, there were other Dwarven witnesses that could have gone home with the body and explained that writer fiat kicked in and it really wants a war. That wouldn't have solved the entire issue but it would have reframed it enough that things could move forward. The only reason not to explain matters is that it would be mildly embarrassing to explain that the King of Ulthuan is no longer the King of all Elves.
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I mean, I feel there's arguments to be made about how the ambassadors seem to have presented themselves to the Phoenix Court (and also about how sometimes the Dwarfs knew about the existence of the Druchii but the War happened anyway), but in a more Doylistic manner, I feel it undermines the point of the War to release the Dwarfs from all the blame like that. Suddenly the War stops being about how the Elves are arrogant and see others as below them, and about how the Dwarfs jump to conclusions and then don't back down and just becomes an excuse to talk about how terrible the Elves are. And I think that's less interesting, and cheapens the war to a degree.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I mean, I feel there's arguments to be made about how the ambassadors seem to have presented themselves to the Phoenix Court (and also about how sometimes the Dwarfs knew about the existence of the Druchii but the War happened anyway), but in a more Doylistic manner, I feel it undermines the point of the War to release the Dwarfs from all the blame like that. Suddenly the War stops being about how the Elves are arrogant and see others as below them, and about how the Dwarfs jump to conclusions and then don't back down and just becomes an excuse to talk about how terrible the Elves are. And I think that's less interesting, and cheapens the war to a degree.
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I don't think the Dwarves are released from the blame, but their contribution to it is rooted in something that has always been a part of the Dwarven character so it just sort of fades into the background. Caledor II being a twerp is what gets focused on because it's what's new, it's why the Elves were able to get along with the Dwarves for two thousand years but were unable to handle this particular flashpoint. But the flipside of that is that Caledor II is no longer the Phoenix King, but the Karaz Ankor hasn't stopped being proud to the point of near-extinction. A culture-wide character flaw on one side colliding with a single extremely flawed individual with too much power on the other is an interesting scenario to me where the other possibilities aren't: simultaneous fuckwits on both sides is just an unfortunate coincidence, and the two just being culturally incompatible doesn't make sense after two millennia of cooperation.
 
I don't think Caledor II actually had the divine right as the Phoenix King. To get the divine right to rule as the legitimate Phoenix King you need to walk bare into the divine fire of the elves Phoenix god, you don't die and you have his divine approvel to rule. I don't think Caledor II actually did that.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Are there any existing ways of regrowing that hair magically? Casting magic on dwarves is usually a big no-no, but I daresay a non-trivial proportion of dwarves thus injured might roll the dice on partial petrification to fix it.

It'd be an easy way to farm Dwarf Favour for whichever College managed it, and it'd help the dwarves, so it wouldn't be the worst use of our time to make the suggestion.
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It would be hilarious if in a quest a player managed to depose Caledor, gathering support and ending the war via hair/beard tonic and dnd bard levels of diplohax.
I mean sure.The Asrai/Eonir and other mainland elves would definitely bow to the guy who made sure they didn't get dwarfstomped but would it extend towards Ulthulan?
 
I would actually expect a human empire to declare war under those conditions. Of course a human empire would likely be more half hearted about prosecuting it, but there would be something.
 
fictionfan said:
I would actually expect a human empire to declare war under those conditions. Of course a human empire would likely be more half hearted about prosecuting it, but there would be something.
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Still better than the shakiest one IRL that I can think of, the War of Jenkins' Ear where ostensibly the cause of war was a English merchant captain being maimed by having his ear cut off by a Spanish coast guard.
 
Shaper47 said:
I don't think Caledor II actually had the divine right as the Phoenix King. To get the divine right to rule as the legitimate Phoenix King you need to walk bare into the divine fire of the elves Phoenix god, you don't die and you have his divine approvel to rule. I don't think Caledor II actually did that.
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Hehe. Toss him into a bonfire you say? I'll call the witch hunters.
 
Wait, I've been doing some rereading and saw that one of Dragomas' challengers was a former Battle Wizard. You can graduate out of being one? I thought the process of fast tracking battle magic resulted in permanent changes that require constant gilded cages when not blowing things up. I guess that state can be temporary?
 
A_Somebody said:
Wait, I've been doing some rereading and saw that one of Dragomas' challengers was a former Battle Wizard. You can graduate out of being one? I thought the process of fast tracking battle magic resulted in permanent changes that require constant gilded cages when not blowing things up. I guess that state can be temporary?
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You can promote out, but only if you get so good at magic that you don't need the extra-boni to casting Battlemagic anymore, as far as I understand.
You can let your stats catch up to your special traits with enough time and effort?
 
A_Somebody said:
Wait, I've been doing some rereading and saw that one of Dragomas' challengers was a former Battle Wizard. You can graduate out of being one? I thought the process of fast tracking battle magic resulted in permanent changes that require constant gilded cages when not blowing things up. I guess that state can be temporary?
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Dragomas is the reason that's a thing apparently. He made the status of Battle Wizard much more comfortable.

Also, I'm assuming those who graduate to LM have learned not to blow up, like Melkoth who can casually cast his personal spell for pranks. Not every Battle Wizard is waiting to blow up.

Gehenna and Arburg are the ones we know who graduated from that track. Fun fact, Arburg, the challenger for the title of Supreme Patriarch in that update, is the canonical Jade Matriarch before Tochter Grunfeld, the "current" canon one.
 
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A_Somebody said:
Wait, I've been doing some rereading and saw that one of Dragomas' challengers was a former Battle Wizard. You can graduate out of being one? I thought the process of fast tracking battle magic resulted in permanent changes that require constant gilded cages when not blowing things up. I guess that state can be temporary?
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It's a DL thing. Here Battle Wizards can be promoted to Lord Magister rank. There are two career tracks in Colleges:
Apprentice->Journeyman->Magister->Lord Magister
Or
Apprentice->Battle Wizard->Lord Magister

@Boney mentions "Elite Battle Wizards" at some point as Magister equivalent but I think it's not a formal separate rank.
 
Codex said:
Fun fact, Arburg, the challenger for the title of Supreme Patriarch in that update, is the canonical Jade Matriarch before Tochter Grunfeld, the "current" canon one.
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Actually, this reminds me of something. Tochter Grunfeld is an interesting case in canon because of something that's frankly kind of ridiculous.

Mainly, she has eight children, and all of them are Jade Magisters.

Through my research, there are a few colleges that have family units enshrined in the college. Jade and Bright College are obvious, Amber doesn't see a reason for restraining your desires, Celestial and Gold don't see a reason to hold it back. But Golds typically lose their desires and don't end up having children for that reason. Amethysts and Lights have a vow of chastity so they don't typically have children. Greys often don't have children but not necessarily due to pressure from the College, more due to circumstances.

What I'm wondering is if Tochter is one of a kind, because eight Magister children is kind of ridiculous to me. If she's not particularly special, then wouldn't the Jade College have the greatest number of magic adepts? Bright and Amber wouldn't be far behind, but Brights and Ambers seem to me to have a higher turnover rate because of the inherent danger of their duty. Jades can at least afford to do noncombatant roles like Panoramia.
 
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Codex said:
Actually, this reminds me of something. Tochta Grunfeld is an interesting case in canon because of something that's frankly kind of ridiculous.

Mainly, she has eight children, and all of them are Jade Magisters.

Through my research, there are a few colleges that have family units enshrined in the college. Jade and Bright College are obvious, Amber doesn't see a reason for restraining your desires, Celestial and Gold don't see a reason to hold it back. But Golds typically lose their desires and don't end up having children for that reason. Amethysts and Lights have a vow of chastity so they don't typically have children. Greys often don't have children but not necessarily due to pressure from the College, more due to circumstances.

What I'm wondering is if Tochta is one of a kind, because eight Magister children is kind of ridiculous to me. If she's not particularly special, then wouldn't the Jade College have the greatest number of magic adepts? Bright and Amber wouldn't be far behind, but Brights and Ambers seem to me to have a higher turnover rate because of the inherent danger of their duty. Jades can at least afford to do noncombatant roles like Panoramia.
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I think the number is not unusual given the period (see the part where Mathilde thinks about Kelham), but the fact that they are all magisters is exceptional.

I don't think it's impossible that the college dedicated to Life magic has religious/Magical rituals that require conception.


And to explain why they are not the most numerous, perhaps they limit external recruitment.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Dwarfs 6th edition just says they sent "envoy and ambassadors". 7th/6th revised and 8th both mention that the Dwarfs had evidence, but doesn't say they presented it to the Elves. Both also say they did a bit of Elf murder (possibly of actual perpetrators, possibly not). Of course, it's also possible that although the Dwarfs had evidence, they didn't have anything they could usefully present (written orders can be faked, and I would be unsurprised to find that the Dwarfs had various bits of Elven armour and such from trade and so on). Actually I suspect the only really useful proof they could have produced would have been a live prisoner, and Dwarfs aren't super into that when they're on a vengeance kick.
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Ultimately, what SHOULD have been done in that case is presenting of evidence, the evidence being found inconclusive, and then launching an elven investigation to accertain the facts while the ambassador is hosted at the Ulthuan court's (trivial) expense, wholly bearded. The Ambassador's oath puts him in an unfortunate spot, but if he winds up shaving himself for his own oath, its just a personal matter.

This could still lead to war, but with far less fervor and outrage, which is also much easier to wind down.
Except of course, that'd require Calador acknowledging that elves can potentially have renegades that don't listen to him.
 
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