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Regarding the war between Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor, the name for it used by humans is usually the War of the Ancients. Mathilde typically uses the War of Vengeance from her exposure to Dwarven thinking, but I'm sure she's slipped up and referred to it as the War of the Beard at least once in her internal monologue. It's a very memorable name.

What makes you say that? I don't think name translations is something that happens oftens so I don't see why there should be one for Elf-dwarfs?

More to point both sides are too proud to let others butcher their names of all things so I am certain they never translate the names.

It's much less of a thing these days but it used to be extremely common for names within Europe, especially when studying history. Columbus, Magellan, Calvin, Homer, and pretty much every Roman to name a few. I don't think it would be as much of a thing within the Warhammer setting since there's no equivalent of Rome and Latin that everyone's drawing on for inherited authority and shared history. Maybe the Empire and Bretonnia would do it to each other, as might Tilea and Estalia.

Oh yeah dwarfs in the Army Books get painted as insane often, but they still come off more lightly than the wood elves because it is a pitiable form of insane

Above all, Dwarves are predictable. As long as you know where the minefields are, you just have to not go into them and you'll be fine. Trouble starts when humans assume the way they think is the rational way to think and project that onto the Dwarves, like assuming they'd threaten and grumble but wouldn't really go to war over being deliberately shortchanged and told to pound sand when they complained. Like Belegar said to Eike: "Humans may bluff and bluster, but Longbeards don't. Listen when they speak and you won't go far wrong."

According to the Wiki, it's mentioned in the Monstrous Arcanum that they built Runic Collars to control them to use as weapons, which were then imitated by other wizards. Unfortunately I don't have it so I can't check myself, but I do recall this also being mentioned in Rhunrikki Strollar.

The Colleges have a collection of Scrolls of Binding that might descend from that same tradition.

Having a ritual in Ind is fine. Let's all agree to drop the period thing, because that sounds grossly juvenile.

That sort of thing is a component in a lot of very old magical and religious traditions. It's especially a thing in matters concerning the moon since a lot of cultures thought the menses and the moon were linked, which is why the two words share an etymology. But I agree it would take a very deft hand to handle it well for a modern audience.

Personally, I find the idea of killing people over the humiliation of diplomats to be a vast over-reaction. Basically, so what if a beard was shaved? It's a cultural humiliation, but lesser than torture or death. But because war was declared over it a ton of civilian populations got dragged on and wiped out.

I know Warhammer is very much about the anthropomophizing of entire races into the persons of their leaders, but the War of the Beard got a lot of people killed because their leaders chose pride over their citizen's lives.

This is a view I agree with, but it is a very modern one. Dulce et decorum est, and all that jazz. Though I'm not super familiar with it, my understanding of the Greco-Persian Wars especially highlights this: when Persian ambassadors were killed in Sparta (some might recognize this as the famous "THIS IS SPARTA" scene in 300), Sparta sent two of their own noblemen to Persia to be executed to even the scales. Not even to avoid war as the war still happened, but just because fucking with Ambassadors was not the done thing and it needed to be atoned for.

(Athens killed Persian ambassadors at around the same time too, but made no attempt to atone. Athenian philosophy might be seen as foundational to modern morality by some but they weren't huge on practicing what they preached in that regard, just ask Melos.)
 
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Regarding the war between Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor, the name for it used by humans is usually the War of the Ancients. Mathilde typically uses the War of Vengeance from her exposure to Dwarven thinking, but I'm sure she's slipped up and referred to it as the War of the Beard at least once in her internal monologue. It's a very memorable name.
Screw it let's just call it the War of the Vengeful Ancient Beards
 
This is a view I agree with, but it is a very modern one. Dulce et decorum est, and all that jazz. Though I'm not super familiar with it, my understanding of the Greco-Persian Wars especially highlights this: when Persian ambassadors were killed in Sparta (some might recognize this as the famous "THIS IS SPARTA" scene in 300), Sparta sent two of their own noblemen to Persia to be executed to even the scales. Not even to avoid war as the war still happened, but just because fucking with Ambassadors was not the done thing and it needed to be atoned for.

(Athens killed Persian ambassadors at around the same time too, but made no attempt to atone. Athenian philosophy might be seen as foundational to modern morality by some but they weren't huge on practicing what they preached in that regard, just ask Melos.)
Back in the days before telephone ambassadors were a much bigger deal than they are in the modern day. Back then in order to have effective ambassadors they had to be granted fairly board authority. Killing one wasn't just a matter of killing a messager, but a very important member of the government. Also lots of overlap with laws of hospitality which also used to be considered a much bigger deal.
 
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Point though- it wasn't killing an ambassador, and there wasn't even any blood drawn. This is on the level of stripping them and sending them home naked, I think? Idk.

I totally get how entire nations were and are dragged into wars to soothe the leader's pride and honor, I just think it is the mark of a bad ruler when they leverage their positions like that.

...a high bar to set perhaps.

I do think that the elves are ultimately at fault for having a pre-civil war politics that killed dwarves as a gambit, but if things were going to go well that's when an investigation would have happened and Malekith would have been handed over as responsible.

But that it didn't happen is more believable, for once in Warhammer. ;)
 
It wasn't just the beard though. As far as the dwarves knew, the elves had started attacking their caravans for no good reason. There got to be a lot of anger there over that percieved betrayal, as well as a lot of conspiracy theorizing about it on the dwarven end. But there were probably also those that thought it was a rogue group, or malcontents that didn't represent the larger elven nation. And then the beard mess happened, which would probably have confirmed the worst notions in the minds of the dwarves, while making the rogue group faction look like fools. So while the beard incident may have been the spark to set things off, the actual root cause was more likely the caravan attacks. Even without the beard incident war was probably going to happen so long as Caledor II refused to admit that the dark elves were a separate nation now - though it likely wouldn't have been quite so bloody.
 
This is on the level of stripping them and sending them home naked, I think? Idk.

More like castrating them, dawi take their beards very seriously. If fact castrating the dawi would have likely being taken better by the dawi, sure its mutilation but at least there wasn't the shame of having the sanctity of the beard dishonoured.

Edit. ninja'd
 
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Point though- it wasn't killing an ambassador, and there wasn't even any blood drawn. This is on the level of stripping them and sending them home naked, I think? Idk.
Which would be a huge deal IRL as well, if we adjust for the time period. When one insults an ambassador in their official duties, they are basically insulting the entire country they represent. Doing it in a way that's a physical assualt could easily be a declaration of war (see: 3rd Defenestration of Prague as just one example). Also, with the context:
"Hey why are our people being killed by elves?"
"Haha, let's assault an ambassador"

Yeah, that's basically an admission of guilt (even though they weren't guilty of the dwarf killings).
 
Point though- it wasn't killing an ambassador, and there wasn't even any blood drawn. This is on the level of stripping them and sending them home naked, I think? Idk.
Not quite; it's on the level of robbing them of the ability to ever wear clothes again, because beard length for men / hair length for women is a visual marker of your age and thus your social status. You can't be a Longbeard without a long beard, and since time elapsed is linearly proportional to length, this basically resets their visible age (and thus place in society) to zero. It's a lifelong violence, not an embarrassment that can be recovered from.

Yes, it feels weird, from a human perspective, for them to be so invested in it. But the degree to which they are so invested in it, and the cultural rules surrounding when it is appropriate to shave your beard and hair (i.e. going Slayer), makes me feel that the level of intensity of this act is analogous to sexual violence or mutilation. You don't just do this to an enemy, you do this to someone whose dignity you are trying to eradicate.
 
I do think that the elves are ultimately at fault for having a pre-civil war politics that killed dwarves as a gambit, but if things were going to go well that's when an investigation would have happened and Malekith would have been handed over as responsible.

But that it didn't happen is more believable, for once in Warhammer. ;)
I feel it's very unfair to actually blame the Asur for Malekith. Like, it's identical to blaming the Empire for Norsca or the Karaz Ankor for the Chaos Dwarfs.
 
I do think that the elves are ultimately at fault for having a pre-civil war politics that killed dwarves as a gambit, but if things were going to go well that's when an investigation would have happened and Malekith would have been handed over as responsible.

But that it didn't happen is more believable, for once in Warhammer. ;)
IIRC, post civil war. I'm fairly sure Malekith had been driven out and the Sundering was already fairly ancient history by the time of the caravan raiding and nat-1 diplo roll. At no point could Malekith have been handed over, and I don't believe there's any indication that the HEs even knew the DEs were a thing yet: The first interaction the DEs have with the HEs as nation-states seems to be Malekith's first invasion, which happens right after the War of Vengeful Ancient Beards so for all the HEs knew Malekith and his followers had died out somewhere in the 800ish years between Malekith being kicked out of Ulthuan and the ambassador's arrival (which might explain why the HEs were so instantly-dismissive of the matter). The idea that Malektith would be so impossibly mad over being not allowed to be king that he'd start a whole society focused on fucking over the HEs and bide time for nearly a millennia probably wasn't something that occurred to the HEs at the time.
 
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Point though- it wasn't killing an ambassador, and there wasn't even any blood drawn. This is on the level of stripping them and sending them home naked, I think? Idk.

I totally get how entire nations were and are dragged into wars to soothe the leader's pride and honor, I just think it is the mark of a bad ruler when they leverage their positions like that.

...a high bar to set perhaps.

I do think that the elves are ultimately at fault for having a pre-civil war politics that killed dwarves as a gambit, but if things were going to go well that's when an investigation would have happened and Malekith would have been handed over as responsible.

But that it didn't happen is more believable, for once in Warhammer. ;)
Hand over Malekith?

Everything with the War of Vengeance happened after Malekith lost a civil war and fled to Naggaroth.
 
Man Caledor is an idiot. Seriously. Even after all that fighting he still won't admit it?

Ugh. Now I kind of want a farseer to get stranded on Malus, just so he/she can be present during this fiasco. Double points if he slaps Caledor's stupid demands down.

His future alarm horns would be blaring like an air raid.
 
Basically, so what if a beard was shaved? It's a cultural humiliation, but lesser than torture or death. But because war was declared over it a ton of civilian populations got dragged on and wiped out.

The problem with this perspective is that it we're talking about *dwarves*.

1) Dwarves are literally incapable of forgiveness. It is a biological impossibility for them.

2) Dwarves pretty much only improve in all aspects with age until they die. So Age = value and beard/plait = age. Shaving a beard isn't an insult, it's basically invalidating said dwarf as a person. It's deeper than just humiliation - a beardless dwarf is less.

3) As an ambassador for the Karaz Ankor, the dwarf in question represented every dwarf, and when he was shaved, every dwarf was dealt a real psychological wound. The War of Vengeance wasn't something the dwarves could choose to pursue or not - from the second that razor started going, war was inevitable.

Am I saying the dwarves were blameless? No, there was more they could have done in the run-up to the war. But blaming them for going to war in response to the ambassador shaving is like blaming a gunpowder keg for exploding when someone tosses in a road flare.
 
The first interaction the DEs have with the HEs as nation-states seems to be Malekith's first invasion, which happens right after the War of Vengeful Ancient Beards so for all the HEs knew Malekith and his followers had died out somewhere in the 800ish years between Malekith being kicked out of Ulthuan and the ambassador's arrival (which would partially explain why the HEs were so instantly-dismissive of the matter- they know they didn't do it, and they 'know' there's no other elf nation that could be framing them).
Not quite true. While the Sundering predates the War by 727 years, there was fighting between the Asur and the Druchii until, at a minimum, 200 years before Malekith launched his little false flag operation.

Man Caledor is an idiot. Seriously. Even after all that fighting he still won't admit it?

Ugh. Now I kind of want a farseer to get stranded on Malus, just so he/she can be present during this fiasco. Double points if he slaps Caledor's stupid demands down.

His future alarm horns would be blaring like an air raid.
Caledor is dead. Kind of hard for him to admit anything.
 
Well Caledor as a whole are idiots and they still won't admit it, and keep hunting dwarfs to expand their beard-cloak.
Eh. The Beard Cloak isn't actually linked to Caledor specifically. Caledor is probably the heart of such resentment, but they aren't the only ones who are involved in that sort of stuff.

And uh, admit what?
 
Not quite true. While the Sundering predates the War by 727 years, there was fighting between the Asur and the Druchii until, at a minimum, 200 years before Malekith launched his little false flag operation.


Caledor is dead. Kind of hard for him to admit anything.
Ah, right Caledor I bites it in a naval battle v Dark Elves, and from there you get Caledor II and his...need to be a warrior king.
 
Point though- it wasn't killing an ambassador, and there wasn't even any blood drawn. This is on the level of stripping them and sending them home naked, I think? Idk.

Dwarfs aren't humans, beards/hair isn't just some neat aesthetic thing to them. Its a symbol of their family, history, status, and everything they've acheived in their lives in general. Like maybe a human equivalent would be lobotimization. They're alive aren't they?
 
Not quite; it's on the level of robbing them of the ability to ever wear clothes again, because beard length for men / hair length for women is a visual marker of your age and thus your social status. You can't be a Longbeard without a long beard, and since time elapsed is linearly proportional to length, this basically resets their visible age (and thus place in society) to zero. It's a lifelong violence, not an embarrassment that can be recovered from.

Yes, it feels weird, from a human perspective, for them to be so invested in it. But the degree to which they are so invested in it, and the cultural rules surrounding when it is appropriate to shave your beard and hair (i.e. going Slayer), makes me feel that the level of intensity of this act is analogous to sexual violence or mutilation. You don't just do this to an enemy, you do this to someone whose dignity you are trying to eradicate.
Are there any existing ways of regrowing that hair magically? Casting magic on dwarves is usually a big no-no, but I daresay a non-trivial proportion of dwarves thus injured might roll the dice on partial petrification to fix it.

It'd be an easy way to farm Dwarf Favour for whichever College managed it, and it'd help the dwarves, so it wouldn't be the worst use of our time to make the suggestion.
 
Ah. And here that's the timeline I originally had in my head, but figured I must be mistaken since the whole identity thing of dark elves killing the caravans and being mistaken for high elves seemed farfetched. The elves had a civil war, and several cities got stolen not even an elven lifetime ago but no one suspected there were rebel elves still out there somewhere?

Odd.

As far as beards go, I don't think that your can really take the lore around beards and plaits entirely seriously: the idea that you can wear super-long hair while dealing with machinery and hot metal for a hundred years without loosing any of it is a bit farfetched.

I'd say, rather, that it's more a mark of skill to be able to preserve your beard or plaits from accidents as you get older, and there's probably quite a few beards out there that are both short and white. We can't take the top 10% of a society as a rule for the whole thing, after all. But that would reframe the Beard cutting from a castration-equivalent to being branded as a failure.
 
Ah, right Caledor I bites it in a naval battle v Dark Elves, and from there you get Caledor II and his...need to be a warrior king.
Yeah. He definitely comes off as having problems being compared to his father and brother.

That they got their ass kicked. Caledor's thing is extreme pride. Worse than the Dawi really.
Caledor's thing is extreme pride. But the War was sort of a victory by default for the Dwarfs. Like, if Caradryel hadn't called the colonies back I suspect the fighting would have continued until both sides were destroyed.

Ah. And here that's the timeline I originally had in my head, but figured I must be mistaken since the whole identity thing of dark elves killing the caravans and being mistaken for high elves seemed farfetched. The elves had a civil war, and several cities got stolen not even an elven lifetime ago but no one suspected there were rebel elves still out there somewhere?
The Asur almost certainly knew, but didn't want to admit the problem. That's further exacerbated by the fact that the Druchii hadn't fought the Asur head on for a millennium. They likely underestimated the threat. It's the sort of thing that probably would have come up if there'd been a joint investigation but poor diplomacy made that never happen.
 
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