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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Jyn Ryvia said:
Even Malekith doesn't match up to Morathi age wise.

Outside of the Slan and a few dragons she is probably the oldest living 'mortal' in the setting.

(And both of those sleep for most of it, she was around and about studying dark magic.)
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True. There's also the Dragon-Ogres. How old are they? I remember they made a pact with Choas to become immortals.
 
K von Carstein said:
True. There's also the Dragon-Ogres. How old are they? I remember they made a pact with Choas to become immortals.
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Every single Dragon Orge alive was present to see the Coming of Chaos and their pact with the Dark Gods as part of that pact was giving up the ability to have offspring, if they were dragons they would all be Emperors. Let's just say there was a reason why I once proposed half seriously capturing one of them to talk to like we did with Querch.
 
DragonParadox said:
Every single Dragon Orge alive was present to see the Coming of Chaos and their pact with the Dark Gods as part of that pact was giving up the ability to have offspring, if they were dragons they would all be Emperors. Let's just say there was a reason why I once proposed half seriously capturing one of them to talk to like we did with Querch.
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Yes the books say that. The books also say that Dragon Ogres grow larger and more powerful with age, yet there isn't any Dragon Ogre who is as large as Karaknarok and even Kholek Suneater below him. There is also a very low number of Shoggoths even then. How long does it take for them to grow large enough for that process to occur? Because if so, they might have been immortal before their promise with Chaos if 7000 years after their bargain they haven't all turned into Shoggoths.
 
DragonParadox said:
Every single Dragon Orge alive was present to see the Coming of Chaos and their pact with the Dark Gods as part of that pact was giving up the ability to have offspring, if they were dragons they would all be Emperors. Let's just say there was a reason why I once proposed half seriously capturing one of them to talk to like we did with Querch.
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Forgot about them.

Partly because I don't think they have much talking roles In Any of the lore outside of the big guy.

And they aren't really the types you would expect to be doing anything that's not eat, kill, maim.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Forgot about them.

Partly because I don't think they have much talking roles In Any of the lore outside of the big guy.

And they aren't really the types you would expect to be doing anything that's not eat, kill, maim.
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Old World Bestiary PG 17:

"Another age turns and once more, the world is hung in the balance. Once again, my brethren must fight and die for a cause that means little to us. Long ago we made our decision and there is no changing it. But the long years have worn me, as the tide shatters the shore, and sometimes I grow weary of the endless battle. What is more, I now wonder if it truly was our decision. I've seen enough to know how manipulative the Architect of Fate can be. I suppose it matters not. In truth, the only time I truly feel alive is when I face a foe capable of killing me." – Enrinsorga, Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
 
Boney said:
Asarnil went with it as a shortening of 'Malavoi Ithil' to mean 'Silver Savage', which is a good example of the kind of name-punnery that Elves use on those they see as their peers - it has shades of her as a human, as a Wizard, as a swordswoman, and her association with Karak Eight Peaks. It'd be a nightmare to try to do something with 'Weber' because Eltharin doesn't really have W or B.
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How does the phonology of Eltharin look like? Because if Reikspiel is based on German, then I imagine the Reikspiel "W" sounds a lot like the Eltharin "V".
 
Boney said:
As long as she speaks about liminal spaces in general and not the one that Grey College lives in specifically, it doesn't touch on College secrets to fill Thorek in on what they are and how they work if necessary.
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Conveniently, she now has a ready example to describe such spaces with!
Axel Fones said:
I can't believe I've failed to comprehend before this moment that elves are smug assholes not purely because of their sense of superiority, expertise with magic, etc etc, but because their language is built from the ground up to be puns all the way down. That takes a special kind of smug assholery.
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Uh...you know modern English is actually a rarity in that it considers puns a bad thing right?

Many cultures associate puns, especially stacked, multilayered, yet completely accurate puns, to be a sign of culture, intelligence and skill. It takes significant skill and a broad lexicon to assemble a correct pun mid conversation without pause
 
Codex said:
Malekith is around 7000 years old. Even assuming these people were the original Grey Lords, they'd still be somewhere between 2000-3000 years younger than him. That's still a significant gap.

Very few people match Malekith and Morathi's age. The Grey Lords would be in roughly the same age bracket as Khatep I believe (well, he'd be a couple hundred years younger, but closer in age than Malekith).

EDIT: I got my calcs wrong, there is in fact a chance that Khatep is older than the Grey Lords, since he's the first guy who figured out immortality in Nehekhara sometime after -2350 IC. Or maybe just the same age.
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I got confused between Malekith's date of birth and the Sundering.

Still being somewhere around 4500-5000 years old (because they had to train and then go in exile before the War of the Beard) is very impressive even for elves.
 
Codex said:
So I checked out the sources of the wiki, and there are apparently two sources to keep in mind here.

The first is 4th Edition WFRP, which Boney isn't taking verbatim but acquiring informaiton from to build the base of the Eonir and Laurelorn. This is the source that is most reliable for information on the Eonir, but it still shouldn't be taken as canon to DL instantly.

The second source here that mentions that the Grey Lords were banished for making the Fell Fangs, Dragon mind control devices, is from a different source. It's from a novel called "Brunner the Bounty Hunter", focusing on an Old World Dog of War mercenary. I don't know if it's a Black Library book or much about its origins, but considering it's a novel it's generally not assumed to be canon unless Boney says outright that it is. I have no idea whether Boney has read that book or is willing to use the lore from it.

Boney has generally been quite vague about the Grey Lords. The wiki mentions something about "the Grey Lords summoning a Spirit Army" in the wiki, but Boney doesn't specify anything other than the disappearance of the throng. The reason for the Grey Lord's exile is also not given in DL, so there is no guarantee they were exiled for mind controlling dragons here.
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And while the 'Brunner' novel was published a while ago, it was only added to the wiki within the last six months, and before that the premise wasn't exactly screaming out to me "this is the book to read to find out about ancient Elven lore". I might end up using it, I might not.

glyph said:
How does the phonology of Eltharin look like? Because if Reikspiel is based on German, then I imagine the Reikspiel "W" sounds a lot like the Eltharin "V".
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No idea. While there's a lot of canonical information about Khazalid's grammar, Eltharin just has a pretty limited lexicon.
 
I'm on my 29th WHF book, Knights of the Grail at this point. Every time I finish a book I have to reiterate in my head how glad I am Boney's interpretation of WHF's setting and world is so much more tolerable than the horrific state of the lore. Bretonnia in particular is quite awful.

The thing I appreciate most is how Boney doesn't really... do caricatures and exaggerations. Literally everything about DL tones things down from the source material to make it more reasonable.
 
Codex said:
I'm on my 29th WHF book, Knights of the Grail at this point. Every time I finish a book I have to reiterate in my head how glad I am Boney's interpretation of WHF's setting and world is so much more tolerable than the horrific state of the lore. Bretonnia in particular is quite awful.

The thing I appreciate most is how Boney doesn't really... do caricatures and exaggerations. Literally everything about DL tones things down from the source material to make it more reasonable.
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WHF (and WH40K) started life far more parodical than nowadays, yeah. While 40K's rampaging success led to it becoming way more poefaced about things, WHF kept a lot more of the silliness, even as it tried to be more 'mature'.
 
Boney said:
And while the 'Brunner' novel was published a while ago, it was only added to the wiki within the last six months, and before that the premise wasn't exactly screaming out to me "this is the book to read to find out about ancient Elven lore". I might end up using it, I might not.
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its such a gap, that I'm not actually convinced that the 'grey lords' in the novel that made the fell fangs, and the 'Grey Lords' in the RPG that live in Laurelorn are even the same group.

'Grey Lord' might have been a catch-all back in the day for 'powerful mage that went rogue/exiled' for all we know, the same way 'Warlock' can be used by the masses to mean anything from Dark Magisters to Daemonologists to Necromancers.

hell, maybe the people writing the RPG just never read the Brunner' novels, and they just used the same name by chance.
 
Codex said:
I'm on my 29th WHF book, Knights of the Grail at this point. Every time I finish a book I have to reiterate in my head how glad I am Boney's interpretation of WHF's setting and world is so much more tolerable than the horrific state of the lore. Bretonnia in particular is quite awful.

The thing I appreciate most is how Boney doesn't really... do caricatures and exaggerations. Literally everything about DL tones things down from the source material to make it more reasonable.
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It is worth keeping in mind that the source material is not meant to be coherent, indeed it cannot be given how many authors there are. So you get a lot of people who want so emphasize how very unique and/or great and/or grim their chosen piece of the setting is, but there simply is not that one person who brings that together and does as sanity check so that the world as a whole works. That is the task @Boney has taken on and it is one he does well, no no small part by ignoring the parts of canon that do not and cannot fit but also by adding his own spin. WHF makes a really cool sandbox, but it cannot provide any sort of singular vision on well anything.
 
Bretonnia in particular suffered from really inconsistent characterization over the years, see-sawing wildly between noblebright paragons of chivalry and grimdark feudal suffering depending on who was writing them - and that's when they were getting written at all. IIRC their last Army Book was in 6th Edition.
 
Boney said:
Bretonnia in particular suffered from really inconsistent characterization over the years, see-sawing wildly between noblebright paragons of chivalry and grimdark feudal suffering depending on who was writing them - and that's when they were getting written at all. IIRC their last Army Book was in 6th Edition.
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It got so bad they were in-universe negated for End Times.
 
DragonParadox said:
It is worth keeping in mind that the source material is not meant to be coherent, indeed it cannot be given how many authors there are. So you get a lot of people who want so emphasize how very unique and/or great and/or grim their chosen piece of the setting is, but there simply is not that one person who brings that together and does as sanity check so that the world as a whole works. That is the task @Boney has taken on and it is one he does well, no no small part by ignoring the parts of canon that do not and cannot fit but also by adding his own spin. WHF makes a really cool sandbox, but it cannot provide any sort of singular vision on well anything.
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I'm growing more convinced of this particular conclusion actually. Lots of these writers don't coordinate with each other and most likely don't even read each other's works, so sometimes some things just don't make sense and you have to make adjustments to even make them fit.
Boney said:
Bretonnia in particular suffered from really inconsistent characterization over the years, see-sawing wildly between noblebright paragons of chivalry and grimdark feudal suffering depending on who was writing them - and that's when they were getting written at all. IIRC their last Army Book was in 6th Edition.
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Yes, 6th Edition was their last Army Book and I read it. The weird thing about that book is that it spends an absurd amount of pages going over the Chivalric Code and how noble the knights of Bretonnia were but there are occasional mentions of how "peasants aren't people" or something like that peppered in there. It's only when you get to the "Duty of the Peasant" part that they explicitly spell out the frankly ludicrous "only one tenth of your harvest is yours. Rejoice! For the nobles are your shield!".

The book genuinely gave me whiplash.
 
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