Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
I'm on my 29th WHF book, Knights of the Grail at this point. Every time I finish a book I have to reiterate in my head how glad I am Boney's interpretation of WHF's setting and world is so much more tolerable than the horrific state of the lore. Bretonnia in particular is quite awful.

The thing I appreciate most is how Boney doesn't really... do caricatures and exaggerations. Literally everything about DL tones things down from the source material to make it more reasonable.
I have mixed feelings about Knights of the Grail.

on one hand, its one big monty python joke, and I love monty python.

on the other hand, it can be grating to play a serious game when the only substantial book on Bretonnia is a big joke.

the third mutated hand, in games that the group just rolls with the absurdity of the 'Kights of the Grail' setting, I've regularly busted a gut laughing. (and I think its that type of game that the writer of 'knights' was going for.)

the band of dwarf grudge fixers being herded by a 'newbie' damsel (wizard template starting at a higher rank and an extra wind) will always be my fondest RPG campaign.
 
I have mixed feelings about Knights of the Grail.

on one hand, its one big monty python joke, and I love monty python.

on the other hand, it can be grating to play a serious game when the only substantial book on Bretonnia is a big joke.

the third mutated hand, in games that the group just rolls with the absurdity of the 'Kights of the Grail' setting, I've regularly busted a gut laughing. (and I think its that type of game that the writer of 'knights' was going for.)

the band of dwarf grudge fixers being herded by a 'newbie' damsel (wizard template starting at a higher rank and an extra wind) will always be my fondest RPG campaign.
The thing about Warhammer Fantasy is that sometimes I do think they want to make a wacky and funny setting where goofy shit happens and you can have lighthearted fun and parody around with ridiculous french accents or whatever.

The problem is that it isn't consistent at this. Most of the books and the settings and lore they produce seems to give me the feeling that they want to be taken seriously, and while there's a few jokes here and there, they do a decent job most of the time at creating a serious setting and actually following through with the tagline of "A Grim world of Perilous Adventure".

The problem is that they can't settle between the two. Are we supposed to take Bretonnia seriously or consider them a joke? The Skaven are funny sometimes, especially characters like Thanquol, but at least you can actually take them seriously and consider them a serious threat. Bretonnia is just astonishingly bad at balancing those things.
 
Yes, 6th Edition was their last Army Book and I read it. The weird thing about that book is that it spends an absurd amount of pages going over the Chivalric Code and how noble the knights of Bretonnia were but there are occasional mentions of how "peasants aren't people" or something like that peppered in there. It's only when you get to the "Duty of the Peasant" part that they explicitly spell out the frankly ludicrous "only one tenth of your harvest is yours. Rejoice! For the nobles are your shield!".

The book genuinely gave me whiplash.

There is a sort of way to make those 9/10 taxes work, but ironically it is the one that makes Bretonia less feudal. The place could be run like a palace economy of the bronze age only with the nobles and their keeps taking the place of the temple granaries, so the stuff does get taxes at that level and then it is turned right back around for redistribution after it has been accounted for and the noble in charge knows who needs what.
 
There is a sort of way to make those 9/10 taxes work, but ironically it is the one that makes Bretonia less feudal. The place could be run like a palace economy of the bronze age only with the nobles and their keeps taking the place of the temple granaries, so the stuff does get taxes at that level and then it is turned right back around for redistribution after it has been accounted for and the noble in charge knows who needs what.
I know that this is a justification that people have made to justify it, but 6th Edition doesn't say that, and I'm still in the Laws section of Knights of the Grail, but the book doesn't say that it operates that way either. Instead, the book just says that peasant revolts as a result of oppressive taxes are common and they always get crushed. It also mentions that while foreign interests and agitators are blamed for these revolts, they are rarely the cause. The peasants just revolt because they're constantly hungry and starving.
 
I'm growing more convinced of this particular conclusion actually. Lots of these writers don't coordinate with each other and most likely don't even read each other's works, so sometimes some things just don't make sense and you have to make adjustments to even make them fit.

Yes, 6th Edition was their last Army Book and I read it. The weird thing about that book is that it spends an absurd amount of pages going over the Chivalric Code and how noble the knights of Bretonnia were but there are occasional mentions of how "peasants aren't people" or something like that peppered in there. It's only when you get to the "Duty of the Peasant" part that they explicitly spell out the frankly ludicrous "only one tenth of your harvest is yours. Rejoice! For the nobles are your shield!".

The book genuinely gave me whiplash.

The way I make sense of that is to theorize that Bretonnia blows right past the standard Feudal manorialism and into an outright palace economy. A peasant gives up 90% of his harvest, but then the lord redistributes most of what comes in as well as a large amount of meat hunted by the otherwise idle nobility, resulting in a peasant class that actually has a healthier diet than if they just ate whatever grew well on their patch of land. It's a system that would be incredibly vulnerable to abuse, but even those nobles who don't internalize the tenets of chivalry and the commandments of the Lady might think twice about abusing their power, because Bretonnia is absolutely crawling with Knights Errant who would come running at the slightest hint of a rumour of a corrupt lord abusing the peasantry. Especially if the Damsels play a part in keeping the system running as it should because their movements can't be impeded by the nobility and they're trusted implicitly by the peasants, so they'd be very able to hear about any abuses and can get the wheels turning on correcting things.

I know that this is a justification that people have made to justify it, but 6th Edition doesn't say that, and I'm still in the Laws section of Knights of the Grail, but the book doesn't say that it operates that way either. Instead, the book just says that peasant revolts as a result of oppressive taxes are common and they always get crushed. It also mentions that while foreign interests and agitators are blamed for these revolts, they are rarely the cause. The peasants just revolt because they're constantly hungry and starving.

6th Edition describes a society that should fall apart within fifteen years, yet has lasted fifteen centuries. The palace economy thing isn't a justification, it's the way to be as faithful as possible to the canon material without having to suppress your common sense.
 
TIt's a system that would be incredibly vulnerable to abuse, but even those nobles who don't internalize the tenets of chivalry and the commandments of the Lady might think twice about abusing their power, because Bretonnia is absolutely crawling with Knights Errant who would come running at the slightest hint of a rumour of a corrupt lord abusing the peasantry.
even being cynical, the fact that they would have a good chance of becoming the new lord of that land if they can prove that the old one was corrupt would help enforce that style of regulation as much as honest chivalry would.
 
I love Brettonia as a place that tries to shift the world's genre into one where fairytale kingdoms are real, and nobles work for the people, one and all, and they almost succeed. But even with literal divine guidance supporting a system designed entirely to create noble heroes, it just can't quite fit into the world. Grail Knights are faultless champions, but there just aren't enough. Nobles can care about the people, but they just lose perspective at that scale, and there's nothing to truly check that. It's a faction putting their all into making an impossible ideal come true, and come so amazingly close that the fundamental flaws in the idea are made all the starker.
 
Last edited:
even being cynical, the fact that they would have a good chance of becoming the new lord of that land if they can prove that the old one was corrupt would help enforce that style of regulation as much as honest chivalry would.

Yeah, it's a society that has enshrined being a wandering vigilante beholden only to one's conscience as the highest form of service, and requires varying levels of achievement in it as a prerequisite to every landed title, and their religion starts handing out superpowers to those who are best at it. That would probably go some way to curbing the abuses and corruption that usually blossom freely in feudalism.
 
The way I make sense of that is to theorize that Bretonnia blows right past the standard Feudal manorialism and into an outright palace economy. A peasant gives up 90% of his harvest, but then the lord redistributes most of what comes in as well as a large amount of meat hunted by the otherwise idle nobility, resulting in a peasant class that actually has a healthier diet than if they just ate whatever grew well on their patch of land. It's a system that would be incredibly vulnerable to abuse, but even those nobles who don't internalize the tenets of chivalry and the commandments of the Lady might think twice about abusing their power, because Bretonnia is absolutely crawling with Knights Errant who would come running at the slightest hint of a rumour of a corrupt lord abusing the peasantry. Especially if the Damsels play a part in keeping the system running as it should because their movements can't be impeded by the nobility and they're trusted implicitly by the peasants, so they'd be very able to hear about any abuses and can get the wheels turning on correcting things.



6th Edition describes a society that should fall apart within fifteen years, yet has lasted fifteen centuries. The palace economy thing isn't a justification, it's the way to be as faithful as possible to the canon material without having to suppress your common sense.
I considered a few questions and discarded them as I don't feel like getting caught up in a Bretonnian worldbuilding tangent is necessary when there is no reason to flesh out that corner of the world yet. However, there is one question that popped into my mind when reading Knights of the Grail.

Was Soizic tried at a court of law and given a Quest of Valor as an effective exile sentence? I don't think Soizic is the type of person to talk much about her exile, so we probably don't know IC. I'm just curious if she was tried and what her "sentence" was.
 
Was Soizic tried at a court of law and given a Quest of Valor as an effective exile sentence? I don't think Soizic is the type of person to talk much about her exile, so we probably don't know IC. I'm just curious if she was tried and what her "sentence" was.

It could be that, or she could have exiled herself ahead of being tried while saying that her Quest will prove her righteousness. The exact details of what went down would depend on the people involved and Soizic's backstory just hasn't been fleshed out enough to populate and game out that scenario.
 
I do wonder if women can become Grail Knights. The most notable female knight in Bretonnia history that I know of is Repanse de Lyonesse, and I don't think even she drank from the Grail. I don't believe it's ever mentioned that she did. I do hope Soizic can become one eventually though.
 
Yeah, it's a society that has enshrined being a wandering vigilante beholden only to one's conscience as the highest form of service, and requires varying levels of achievement in it as a prerequisite to every landed title, and their religion starts handing out superpowers to those who are best at it. That would probably go some way to curbing the abuses and corruption that usually blossom freely in feudalism.

And this also has the benefit of explaining why the Damned Duchy is well... damned, the enforcement broke down thanks to all the vampires and dark magic, there are no or very few Damsels around and the Knight Errands who do try to walk those paths often as not never return. Once the system breaks it spirals.
 
The way I make sense of that is to theorize that Bretonnia blows right past the standard Feudal manorialism and into an outright palace economy. A peasant gives up 90% of his harvest, but then the lord redistributes most of what comes in as well as a large amount of meat hunted by the otherwise idle nobility, resulting in a peasant class that actually has a healthier diet than if they just ate whatever grew well on their patch of land. It's a system that would be incredibly vulnerable to abuse, but even those nobles who don't internalize the tenets of chivalry and the commandments of the Lady might think twice about abusing their power, because Bretonnia is absolutely crawling with Knights Errant who would come running at the slightest hint of a rumour of a corrupt lord abusing the peasantry. Especially if the Damsels play a part in keeping the system running as it should because their movements can't be impeded by the nobility and they're trusted implicitly by the peasants, so they'd be very able to hear about any abuses and can get the wheels turning on correcting things.

It also likely helps that the Grail is like, self-selecting towards decent human beings? You don't get to take a sip from it if you're going to be a total mook about it. Admittedly, power can corrupt with time, but the Lady seems to be pretty strict about who gets to get to that point in the first place.
 
And this also has the benefit of explaining why the Damned Duchy is well... damned, the enforcement broke down thanks to all the vampires and dark magic, there are no or very few Damsels around and the Knight Errands who do try to walk those paths often as not never return. Once the system breaks it spirals.
I actually like that explanation for why despite so much effect to the ideal, there are so many examples of 'bad' Bretonnia in the lore.

because when the system breaks, it spirals. and the same instructions and norms that create some of the best heroes of the setting also protect the worst offenders of its abuse.
 
Last edited:
This is probably one of the weirdest nice things that I've ever read about:

"Lord Laurent, in Artois, requires all newly married couples to spend their first night in his bedchamber. To the surprise of his peasants, the Lord himself always spends that night sleeping outside the door to the chamber, ensuring that the couple is not disturbed."

So bizarre.
 
This is probably one of the weirdest nice things that I've ever read about:

"Lord Laurent, in Artois, requires all newly married couples to spend their first night in his bedchamber. To the surprise of his peasants, the Lord himself always spends that night sleeping outside the door to the chamber, ensuring that the couple is not disturbed."

So bizarre.
…. Forgot about that one.

Well, I guess that's one way to get around an old law you don't like while giving people a nice honeymoon. (It's like getting a nice hotel… I guess?)
 
The way I make sense of that is to theorize that Bretonnia blows right past the standard Feudal manorialism and into an outright palace economy. A peasant gives up 90% of his harvest, but then the lord redistributes most of what comes in as well as a large amount of meat hunted by the otherwise idle nobility, resulting in a peasant class that actually has a healthier diet than if they just ate whatever grew well on their patch of land. It's a system that would be incredibly vulnerable to abuse, but even those nobles who don't internalize the tenets of chivalry and the commandments of the Lady might think twice about abusing their power, because Bretonnia is absolutely crawling with Knights Errant who would come running at the slightest hint of a rumour of a corrupt lord abusing the peasantry. Especially if the Damsels play a part in keeping the system running as it should because their movements can't be impeded by the nobility and they're trusted implicitly by the peasants, so they'd be very able to hear about any abuses and can get the wheels turning on correcting things.
In this version, what is the source of the apparently frequent peasant uprisings? Oppression not related to food? Or just the perception of abuse during any natural food shortage, where nobles of course don't adjust their diet, but less food comes out of the palace.
This is probably one of the weirdest nice things that I've ever read about:

"Lord Laurent, in Artois, requires all newly married couples to spend their first night in his bedchamber. To the surprise of his peasants, the Lord himself always spends that night sleeping outside the door to the chamber, ensuring that the couple is not disturbed."

So bizarre.
…. Forgot about that one.

Well, I guess that's one way to get around an old law you don't like while giving people a nice honeymoon. (It's like getting a nice hotel… I guess?)
Well, he still sleeps just outside the door. So some kind of listening-based voyeurism might still be involved.
 
In this version, what is the source of the apparently frequent peasant uprisings? Oppression not related to food? Or just the perception of abuse during any natural food shortage, where nobles of course don't adjust their diet, but less food comes out of the palace.

There aren't frequent peasant uprisings, because a society with frequent peasant uprisings doesn't last fifteen centuries.
 
There aren't frequent peasant uprisings, because a society with frequent peasant uprisings doesn't last fifteen centuries.
Especially not one with a system that creates superpowered champions actively encouraged to follow their ironclad personal morals, with a leaning towards empathy and kindness. That is to say, a system that gives you enforcers likely to support said uprisings.
 
I do wonder if women can become Grail Knights. The most notable female knight in Bretonnia history that I know of is Repanse de Lyonesse, and I don't think even she drank from the Grail. I don't believe it's ever mentioned that she did. I do hope Soizic can become one eventually though.
Repanse didn't get a go at the Cosmic Sippy Cup, but the Lady did give her at least one unique blessing, so it's possible that 'Grail Knight' is a dudes-only status but not really because the only difference is the title.
 
Repanse didn't get a go at the Cosmic Sippy Cup, but the Lady did give her at least one unique blessing, so it's possible that 'Grail Knight' is a dudes-only status but not really because the only difference is the title.
I mean, Bretonnian knights get blessings before ever drinking from the Grail. The real key features that set Grail Knights a cut above are being boosted beyond all other knights of the Lady, and for having expanded lifespans. And outside of Total War 2, I don't think it was ever implied that Repanse had any sort of slowed aging.
 
Since we're talking about Bretonnia, I wanna ask since most of my knowledge of WHF comes from wiki, yt videos, and fanfictions. Lady of the lake is the the elven goddess Lileath? Canon or fanon?
 
On the other hand, societies that last fifteen centuries have probably seen a lot of occasional peasants uprisings over that period.

Oh yes, it certainly happens. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad ones.

Since we're talking about Bretonnia, I wanna ask since most of my knowledge of WHF comes from wiki, yt videos, and fanfictions. Lady of the lake is the the elven goddess Lileath? Canon or fanon?

End Times canon.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top