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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
Then what do you want me to do? Paraphrase 1800 words? Not only does that defeat the purpose since it completely elimintates the purpose of transcripts (being unedited so you get the full impression of what was intended), but it means you're basically using me as a filter for all the information you recieve instead of forming your own opinions. If posting a single myth from the source is enough to cause copyright infringement, then I might as well just stop reading Warhammer Fantasy books right here since we can't discuss them anymore.

EDIT: I deleted everything after the fourth paragraph. I hope it doesn't cause confusion now.
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It's more, 'don't copy and paste enough words directly from the books that scan bot programs might take note'.
 
Codex said:
Then what do you want me to do? Paraphrase 1800 words? Not only does that defeat the purpose since it completely elimintates the purpose of transcripts (being unedited so you get the full impression of what was intended), but it means you're basically using me as a filter for all the information you recieve instead of forming your own opinions. If posting a single myth from the source is enough to cause copyright infringement, then I might as well just stop reading Warhammer Fantasy books right here since we can't discuss them anymore.

EDIT: I deleted everything after the fourth paragraph. I hope it doesn't cause confusion now.
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Thank you for editing.

I understand your frustration, but we have had plenty of discussion in here on a wide variety of canon topics in these 10000 pages without having the source directly available. It's less convenient, sure, but by no means is it a ban on discourse. By all means, keep reading the books and pointing out what you found interesting. Just because the source isn't directly in a post here in front of us doesn't mean it can't be summarized, referred to, or otherwise engaged with.

Edit: Also, what @Jyn Ryvia said. For some examples, see page 4514: Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy
 
All the Cults have their own version of that story and they all just so happen to paint their preferred God in a great light. The Taalites say that Taal led the charge, the Verenans say that Verena was the only one that believed Ulric when Ulric was going around saying the demons were coming, the Asur say that Asuryan was the first to fight against the demons and the first to fall, and His eventual rebirth is what won the war. Like with studying IRL historical accounts, despite all the clear biases if you read enough you start to see the common threads between them that give you an idea of the truth of the matter. The growing threat, the widespread disbelief, the few believers talk around those on the fence, the long war, the final stand before a deus ex machina saves the day. All of this can be mapped to the historical timeline given by the Elven and Lizardmen histories with reasonable accuracy - the Gates begin to fail, they fail completely and demons are unleashed, the Lizardmen bear the brunt of the attacks early on, daemons become a worldwide threat and are opposed by the Elves and Dwarves, the Vortex turns on and the Daemons are banished.

Where it gets weird is what isn't converted into the vocabulary of the ones telling the story. A Taalite legend from the Obernarn Stone speaks vaguely and darkly about 'immortals', possibly the Old Ones, but speak of the Chaos Gods as four of them, which, what? It also has oddities among Taalite's allies: Margileo, a very minor God with a weirdly non-Reikspielish name with just a handful of worshippers in Averland, as well as Sotek the Snake (???), and it gives credit for the final victory to what is almost certain to be Asuryan. The Grey Order's myth adopted from the Asur says that King Taal inherited rule of the world from Asuryan after Asuryan was slain by Chaos, which doesn't fit Asur beliefs about Asuryan and Kurnous, nor does it fit Taalite beliefs about Taal, and for some reason it also name-drops Tlanxla, which is the name of a Lustrian Temple-City that's been in ruins since the Coming of Chaos. The Ulrican legend Codex cites has the same sort of oddness: it should date back to a time when he was the primary God of the Teutogens and the other Gods were either that of other pre-Imperial Tribes or of distant Tilea, and this is kind of supported by Ulric being described as 'prince of ice and snow' with no wolf associations (which were believed to have come about after the Cult of Ulric absorbed the Cult of Lupus) - but he is also said to be the younger brother of Taal, which is... odd. Maybe it's from a time when the seasonal trinity worship of Taal/Rhya/Ulric was splitting into three distinct deities, but while that would explain why Ulric is given second billing in an Ulrican legend, that process should have been long complete by the time the Southern Gods became known to the Teutogens.

It all seems like a jumble of syncretism, mistranslations and cultural misunderstandings, but you can't dismiss it entirely as a source because things come through that have no reason to be known by the ones doing the telling. Why does an ancient human Runestone have a cameo from a Skink God whose entire deal is that the Slann keep saying "who the fuck is this guy, he's not in any of our writings?" Why does it have a very clear description of Asuryan? Why does an Ulrican myth include beliefs from points on the evolution of the Cult of Ulric millennia apart? Or more explicitly, how does a supposedly ancient and unsourced Ulrican myth manage to supply a very neat 'just so' story to the evolution of Ulric's depictions by his worshippers, a process that took thousands of years, most of it long before any written records existed and unknown to modern scholars? Why does an Asur myth have Tlanxla, a Lizardman Sky God of some sort obscure enough that even those that have access to the wiki barely know anything about them, as a sword wielded by the Daemon Ulgu? All these mythologies that should have been separated by oceans and millennia keep describing the same events and beings with too much accuracy and too often to be coincidence. The only conclusion that makes sense is that these are the same events being seen through different cultural lenses.
 
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What's the Ranaldian version of the story?
Chaos came and Ranald was smart enough to not fight directly somehow?
Tricked some other bad things to fight chaos?
 
Boney said:
All the Cults have their own version of that story and they all just so happen to paint their preferred God in a great light. The Taalites say that Taal led the charge, the Verenans say that Verena was the only one that believed Ulric when Ulric was going around saying the demons were coming, the Asur say that Asuryan was the first to fight against the demons and the first to fall, and His eventual rebirth is what won the war. Like with studying IRL historical accounts, despite all the clear biases if you read enough you start to see the common threads between them that give you an idea of the truth of the matter. The growing threat, the widespread disbelief, the few believers talk around those on the fence, the long war, the final stand before a deus ex machina saves the day. All of this can be mapped to the historical timeline given by the Elven and Lizardmen histories with reasonable accuracy - the Gates begin to fail, they fail completely and demons are unleashed, the Lizardmen bear the brunt of the attacks early on, daemons become a worldwide threat and are opposed by the Elves and Dwarves, the Vortex turns on and the Daemons are banished.

Where it gets weird is what isn't converted into the vocabulary of the ones telling the story. A Taalite legend from the Obernarn Stone speaks vaguely and darkly about 'immortals', possibly the Old Ones, but speak of the Chaos Gods as four of them, which, what? It also has oddities among Taalite's allies: Margileo, a very minor God with a weirdly non-Reikspielish name with just a handful of worshippers in Averland, as well as Sotek the Snake (???), and it gives credit for the final victory to what is almost certain to be Asuryan. The Grey Order's myth adopted from the Asur says that King Taal inherited rule of the world from Asuryan after Asuryan was slain by Chaos, which doesn't fit Asur beliefs about Asuryan and Kurnous, nor does it fit Taalite beliefs about Taal, and for some reason it also name-drops Tlanxla, which is the name of a Lustrian Temple-City that's been in ruins since the Coming of Chaos. The Ulrican legend Codex cites has the same sort of oddness: it should date back to a time when he was the primary God of the Teutogens and the other Gods were either that of other pre-Imperial Tribes or of distant Tilea, and this is kind of supported by Ulric being described as 'prince of ice and snow' with no wolf associations (which were believed to have come about after the Cult of Ulric absorbed the Cult of Lupus) - but he is also said to be the younger brother of Taal, which is... odd. Maybe it's from a time when the seasonal trinity worship of Taal/Rhya/Ulric was splitting into three distinct deities, but while that would explain why Ulric is given second billing in an Ulrican legend, that process should have been long complete by the time the Southern Gods became known to the Teutogens.

It all seems like a jumble of syncretism, mistranslations and cultural misunderstandings, but you can't dismiss it entirely as a source because things come through that have no reason to be known by the ones doing the telling. Why does an ancient human Runestone have a cameo from a Skink God whose entire deal is that the Slann keep saying "who the fuck is this guy, he's not in any of our writings?" Why does it have a very clear description of Asuryan? Why does an Ulrican myth include beliefs from points on the evolution of the Cult of Ulric millennia apart? Or more explicitly, how does a supposedly ancient and unsourced Ulrican myth manage to supply a very neat 'just so' story to the evolution of Ulric's depictions by his worshippers, a process that took thousands of years, most of it long before any written records existed and unknown to modern scholars? Why does an Asur myth have Tlanxla, who may have been a Lizardman Sky God of some sort but is obscure enough that even those that have access to the wiki only know of the city named after them, as a sword wielded by the Daemon Ulgu? All these mythologies that should have been separated by oceans and millennia keep describing the same events and beings with too much accuracy and too often to be coincidence. The only conclusion that makes sense is that these are the same events being seen through different cultural lenses.
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I agree very much with what you're saying. One thing I would like to note though, is the description of Kroq Gar's weapon:

"Revered Spear of Tlanxla: This weapon was said to have been wielded by the warlike Old One deity Tlanxla as he rode his sky chariot into battle. It hums with ancient energy, and those struck by it are overcome by doom-laden visions that sap their will to fight."

This seems to indicate to me that Tlanxla was most likely one of the Old Ones, and that the Lizardmen often name their temple cities after them.
 
Codex said:
I agree very much with what you're saying. One thing I would like to note though, is the description of Kroq Gar's weapon:

"Revered Spear of Tlanxla: This weapon was said to have been wielded by the warlike Old One deity Tlanxla as he rode his sky chariot into battle. It hums with ancient energy, and those struck by it are overcome by doom-laden visions that sap their will to fight."

This seems to indicate to me that Tlanxla was most likely one of the Old Ones, and that the Lizardmen often name their temple cities after them.
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...maybe the Spear has a Sword counterpart that was taken and used by a Daemon?
 
Boney said:
All the Cults have their own version of that story and they all just so happen to paint their preferred God in a great light. The Taalites say that Taal led the charge, the Verenans say that Verena was the only one that believed Ulric when Ulric was going around saying the demons were coming, the Asur say that Asuryan was the first to fight against the demons and the first to fall, and His eventual rebirth is what won the war. Like with studying IRL historical accounts, despite all the clear biases if you read enough you start to see the common threads between them that give you an idea of the truth of the matter. The growing threat, the widespread disbelief, the few believers talk around those on the fence, the long war, the final stand before a deus ex machina saves the day. All of this can be mapped to the historical timeline given by the Elven and Lizardmen histories with reasonable accuracy - the Gates begin to fail, they fail completely and demons are unleashed, the Lizardmen bear the brunt of the attacks early on, daemons become a worldwide threat and are opposed by the Elves and Dwarves, the Vortex turns on and the Daemons are banished.

Where it gets weird is what isn't converted into the vocabulary of the ones telling the story. A Taalite legend from the Obernarn Stone speaks vaguely and darkly about 'immortals', possibly the Old Ones, but speak of the Chaos Gods as four of them, which, what? It also has oddities among Taalite's allies: Margileo, a very minor God with a weirdly non-Reikspielish name with just a handful of worshippers in Averland, as well as Sotek the Snake (???), and it gives credit for the final victory to what is almost certain to be Asuryan. The Grey Order's myth adopted from the Asur says that King Taal inherited rule of the world from Asuryan after Asuryan was slain by Chaos, which doesn't fit Asur beliefs about Asuryan and Kurnous, nor does it fit Taalite beliefs about Taal, and for some reason it also name-drops Tlanxla, which is the name of a Lustrian Temple-City that's been in ruins since the Coming of Chaos. The Ulrican legend Codex cites has the same sort of oddness: it should date back to a time when he was the primary God of the Teutogens and the other Gods were either that of other pre-Imperial Tribes or of distant Tilea, and this is kind of supported by Ulric being described as 'prince of ice and snow' with no wolf associations (which were believed to have come about after the Cult of Ulric absorbed the Cult of Lupus) - but he is also said to be the younger brother of Taal, which is... odd. Maybe it's from a time when the seasonal trinity worship of Taal/Rhya/Ulric was splitting into three distinct deities, but while that would explain why Ulric is given second billing in an Ulrican legend, that process should have been long complete by the time the Southern Gods became known to the Teutogens.

It all seems like a jumble of syncretism, mistranslations and cultural misunderstandings, but you can't dismiss it entirely as a source because things come through that have no reason to be known by the ones doing the telling. Why does an ancient human Runestone have a cameo from a Skink God whose entire deal is that the Slann keep saying "who the fuck is this guy, he's not in any of our writings?" Why does it have a very clear description of Asuryan? Why does an Ulrican myth include beliefs from points on the evolution of the Cult of Ulric millennia apart? Or more explicitly, how does a supposedly ancient and unsourced Ulrican myth manage to supply a very neat 'just so' story to the evolution of Ulric's depictions by his worshippers, a process that took thousands of years, most of it long before any written records existed and unknown to modern scholars? Why does an Asur myth have Tlanxla, who may have been a Lizardman Sky God of some sort but is obscure enough that even those that have access to the wiki only know of the city named after them, as a sword wielded by the Daemon Ulgu? All these mythologies that should have been separated by oceans and millennia keep describing the same events and beings with too much accuracy and too often to be coincidence. The only conclusion that makes sense is that these are the same events being seen through different cultural lenses.
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the worst part, most of those myths agree that Ranald ran away.
 
Valmond said:
Ah, right, forgot about that.
It's kinda funny that non Ranaldian religions consider Ranald as older than most actual Ranaldites.
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"And I said: Can you tell me the tale of Ranald, and how he achieved Godhood? And the child replied: Yes. The Greatest Trick. A well-known tale. Ranaldans claim that, when mortal, Ranald was a bandit; a gentle soul who robbed from the rich and gave to the poor. This so enchanted Shallya that she fell in love, ensnared by the romance of Ranald's deeds. One night, when distributing supplies to victims of the Fly Lord, Ranald fell dreadfully ill, and was approached by Morr. Shallya could not bear the loss of her love, so she stole Ranald from her father's grasp in the only way she knew how: she let him drink from her holy Chalice, and granted him immortality. Ranald, now a God, laughed at Shallya's naivety. He admitted to the crying Goddess that he had never been sick at all, and that he had manipulated her from the beginning. And I said: So, the tale is true? And the child replied: No. It is false. The greatest trick Ranald ever pulled was convincing Humanity that he had ever been one of them."
 
Codex said:
Of course an Ulrican legend would paint Ranald in the most uncharitable way light possible
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The other interesting thing is that in a way... it doesn't. It certainly doesn't paint him in a GOOD light but "With him in many of these journeys came his cousin, Prince Ranald the Trickster, and many are the tales told of these two friends and their brave deeds" is a very surprising thing to hear when I'm pretty sure approximately 0 tales are told of these two friends and their brave deeds at this point in time. But at least at some point when this legend was getting told, the teller genuinely knew of many tales about Ranald and Ulric's friendship and expected their audience to know them as well.
 
Godwinson said:
When it comes to Ranald's myths, there's a quote that feels very appropriate:
Boney said:
"To hide something from a Grey Wizard, give them enough false clues to reach a wrong answer that makes them feel clever," he says with a smile. "To hide it from many, have enough wrong answers for them to argue over.
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So it is true, Ranald really is shadow dragon Mathilde from the future! :V :V :V
 
On the one hand, it kinda sucks for Ranald to have run like that, if it's true. On the other, it does make him standing with Mathilde, Lily, and the Kislev gods against Khorne meaningful as all heck. Making Amends indeed.
 
Ericwinter said:
On the one hand, it kinda sucks for Ranald to have run like that, if it's true. On the other, it does make him standing with Mathilde, Lily, and the Kislev gods against Khorne meaningful as all heck. Making Amends indeed.
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It's an Ulric myth talking about why Ranald and Ulric aren't friends anymore, it makes sense that ot would denigrate Ranald in that context, I'd guess, if that myth is even slightly true, Ranald probably did try to do something clever... and it just completely failed, whiffed completely, perhaps badly enough that he got knocked out of the fight, fitting his nature as a gambler to do something quite risky even in such desperate times, but it would just make it seem to all the others that he ran and hid while they fought
 
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reignonyrparade said:
The other interesting thing is that in a way... it doesn't. It certainly doesn't paint him in a GOOD light but "With him in many of these journeys came his cousin, Prince Ranald the Trickster, and many are the tales told of these two friends and their brave deeds" is a very surprising thing to hear when I'm pretty sure approximately 0 tales are told of these two friends and their brave deeds at this point in time. But at least at some point when this legend was getting told, the teller genuinely knew of many tales about Ranald and Ulric's friendship and expected their audience to know them as well.
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It feels a lot like Odin and Loki in Norse mythology: a bond of brotherhood between the curious wanderer and the mischievous trickster shattered by a final act of treachery, except that treachery starts not adding up if you stare at it long enough. If Ranald was so terrified of the Daemons, why did he take the course of action that would guarantee they would be unleashed upon the world? If you take Ranald as a Loki figure, it doesn't make sense that his primary characterization in this and the Obernarn Stone version is cowardice. Loki does two things: when times are good, he starts trouble. But when times are bad, he's the off-the-wall solution that solves the problem. And this fits very much with Ranald's position in society, being both rabble-rouser and protector of the innocent. So the question becomes: what was Ranald really doing when everyone else was fighting conventionally against the Daemonic onslaught?
 
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Boney said:
It feels a lot like Odin and Loki in Norse mythology: a bond of brotherhood between the curious wanderer and the mischievous trickster shattered by a final act of treachery, except that treachery starts not adding up if you stare at it long enough. If Ranald was so terrified of the Daemons, why did he take the course of action that would guarantee they would be unleashed upon the world? If you take Ranald as a Loki figure, it doesn't make sense that his primary characterization in this and the Obernarn Stone version is cowardice. Loki does two things: when times are good, he starts trouble. But when times are bad, he's the off-the-wall solution that solves the problem. And this fits very much with Ranald's position in society, being both rabble-rouser and protector of the innocent. So the question becomes: what was Ranald really doing when everyone else was fighting conventionally against the Daemonic onslaught?
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He was not in the final battle but Flaming Phoenix was, so clearly he became Asuryan.
 
Codex said:
There was a time, when the world was young and man had just come forth onto the earth, that there was no taint of Chaos upon the land. Father Taal and Mother Rhya tended the things of the land, and their son Manann was master of the things of the sea. Morr was king of the darkness, and Verena the queen of the light, and so all was in balance. In the high summers, Lord Ulric, brother of Taal and prince of the snow and ice, had no realm to tend to, so he had taken to walking the earth and the sky and the stars to seek adventure. He travelled far beyond the ken of man or God, fought and slew the greater monsters and dragons and gave names to all the wonders that he found. With him in many of these journeys came his cousin, Prince Ranald the Trickster, and many are the tales told of these two friends and their brave deeds. But all journeys must end, and this is the tale of their last journey together.

Ulric and Ranald had journeyed far to the north, farther than any God or man had ever gone before, into the frozen wastes, where the air is so cold it freezes like the water and the earth shatters under your feet like the first film of ice on the lake, and no man nor Dwarf can survive. And here, at the very top of the world, Ulric and Ranald came upon a crack in the sky. Looking through it, they saw a great horror: it led to the Realm of Chaos. There stood all the beasts and Daemons and Gods of Chaos, a great and terrible horde, straining to widen the crack and hungry for conquest of this new world. Ulric knew that should this army breach the gate, all of this world would be forever destroyed. He called to his brother Ranald to immediately run to tell Father Taal and King Morr of what they had seen, so they might make ready their armies to drive back this horde. Ulric said he would stand at the crack and hold it closed as long as he could.
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Hmm. Radical off the wall theory, but could be this a distorted and reattributed version of the legend of Grimnir going north and holding off the daemons at the warp gate? With Ranald taking on some of Mogrim's role of being sent south? Obviously after thousands of years of storyteller embellishment after the initial retelling of the story with more familiar names.
 
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