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Cython's description of the Elves as 'water-folk' is pretty indicative that, like most non-Elves, he's not that familiar with them, and those that he knows anything at all about were either sailors or traders (or possibly Druchii corsairs). It would only really be accurate to describe the population of one of Ulthuan's Kingdoms as 'water-folk': Cothique, the realm of seafarers. You can stretch that to a second if you think Lothern is representative of all of Eataine, a third if you stretch 'water-folk' to include the misty realm of Yvresse, and a fourth if you really want to dunk on the half-drowned realm of Tiranoc, but even then you don't have a majority.
 
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but not qualitatively different.
Sure it is. Cython is a mhorzhuf-flipping Dragon, not a prickly Runelord. A dragon who I remind you was unbothered by a seven figure rampaging Waaagh. Who relentlessly cleared a mountain of Skaven out of displeasure at a bad smell.
They don't gotta put up with aaaaaaaaany water-folk in their life.
 
Is Cython capable of helping with the Waystone Project? Probably; even if they lack any specific knowledge, their general level of experience and skillset means they'd be able to contribute more than Mathilde once they get the base-level introduction to the topic.

Is Cython likely to want to help with the Waystone Project? Almost certainly no. They're currently working on their own private puzzle, and it's a damn knotty and tricky one with twists and turns they hadn't anticipated. It deserves their full attention, so they'd need a really good reason to drop it focus on something else for a while. And that's something we simply don't have; a good reason for Cython to join the project.

Appealing to curiosity? Cython lives in a huge Waystone nexus, was able to detect it waking up, and has shown exactly zero interest in it. Waystones just don't seem to be an interesting topic to Cython.

Bringing up the benefits of fixing the Waystones? If anything, Cython would benefit more from fewer Waystones being online- fewer Waystones means more winds means more Hysh. Sure, there's that little Chaos problem, but until/unless things get far worse than their current state Chaos is not exactly a threat to Cython (and they've already shown a 'deal with it when it happens' approach to threats).

Offering them payment? We have precisely nothing we can pay Cython that doesn't fall into the realm of trinkets and piddling curiosities, and we don't truly know them well enough to make a tempting offer involving anything else.

Asking as a personal favour? Cython doesn't like us anywhere near enough for that. Maybe if we'd chosen to romance them, but that's not really an option anymore.

Using the Gambler? The coin twists probability, and makes favourable outcomes more likely. It doesn't outright create those outcomes from nothing- it needs something to work with, and with Cython there really isn't. The best it could probably do is ensure that Cython is in a good mood when we approach them, which wouldn't be anywhere near enough to let us bring them on board.
 
They don't gotta put up with aaaaaaaaany water-folk in their life.
We are fortunate then that we are based in Laurelorn, where there aren't any water folk then, are we not? As per word of Boney, those elves that Cython is familiar with are Ultuani and Druchii sailors, and during recruitment we can honestly say that the Laurelorn forest-folk are better enough to be bearable.

And with any Ultuani elves, even if we'll recruit them (and that's a big if, I'm not sure Thorek will all be ok with that), we can deal on a case-by-case basis, it's quite easy to argue that this particular individual is not bad enough to be not in conflict with.

Appealing to curiosity? Cython lives in a huge Waystone nexus, was able to detect it waking up, and has shown exactly zero interest in it. Waystones just don't seem to be an interesting topic to Cython.
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Using the Gambler? The coin twists probability, and makes favourable outcomes more likely. It doesn't outright create those outcomes from nothing- it needs something to work with, and with Cython there really isn't. The best it could probably do is ensure that Cython is in a good mood when we approach them, which wouldn't be anywhere near enough to let us bring them on board.
We can use that, with additional influence from interpersonal interaction. Cython likes interacting with Mathilde on its current puzzle enough that it regularly initiates these interactions, and this makes it possible to propose to it considering another puzzle we are currently wracking our brains with, hopefully enticing its curiosity and initiating joint discussion on our puzzle.

Reciprocation to a pleasant neighbour, we listened to its puzzle and jointly thought about it, now we'll listen to Mathilde puzzle and jointly think about it. And that's an opening the Coin can use, and use it to get a favourable outcome, because part of the thinking about puzzles is gathering relevant info, like we did from books on dwarf Ancestor Gods, and some of the relevant info on Mathilde's puzzle can be gotten only from some other people gathering in that other place, and so on. And this is not a proposal to try to dupe Cython, honesty all the way, just showing things in the favourable light.

I'm not saying that it's a certainty, but I honestly don't understand how it can be stated that it's impossible and there is no chance.

@Boney, could you clarify any of the following?

Is using "[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (specify which)" action to attempt recruiting Cython, as you ok'd, has a chance of success and is not an impossibility? I'm assuming that it would, because I don't see a point of giving the quest players an option for an action which can only fail, but maybe I'm missing something?

If the action has a chance of success, is taken and is successful, would it take care of any logistical issues, like accomodating Cython presence with relevant Laurelorn authorities for times when Cython will be present on-site, or would there be a requirement for additional actions for possible additional issues? I'm assuming, like with Thorek, that the successful recruiting action would also take care of anything related like that; am I mistaken? Or is it try it and find out situation?
 
@Boney, could you clarify any of the following?

Is using "[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (specify which)" action to attempt recruiting Cython, as you ok'd, has a chance of success and is not an impossibility? I'm assuming that it would, because I don't see a point of giving the quest players an option for an action which can only fail, but maybe I'm missing something?

To take this to its ultimate conclusion, it would be possible for someone to run through iterations of this same question with people like Morathi or Khatep or Lord Kroak or W'soran to extract majorly useful and completely OOC data. The thread knows all Mathilde does about Cython's habits and interests, it's up to the thread to decide whether it's worth trying to recruit them based on the available information.

If the action has a chance of success, is taken and is successful, would it take care of any logistical issues, like accomodating Cython presence with relevant Laurelorn authorities for times when Cython will be present on-site, or would there be a requirement for additional actions for possible additional issues? I'm assuming, like with Thorek, that the successful recruiting action would also take care of anything related like that; am I mistaken? Or is it try it and find out situation?

All that sort of thing would be either bundled into the action or taken care of automatically without requiring future AP expenditure.
 
We can use that, with additional influence from interpersonal interaction. Cython likes interacting with Mathilde on its current puzzle enough that it regularly initiates these interactions, and this makes it possible to propose to it considering another puzzle we are currently wracking our brains with, hopefully enticing its curiosity and initiating joint discussion on our puzzle.

Reciprocation to a pleasant neighbour, we listened to its puzzle and jointly thought about it, now we'll listen to Mathilde puzzle and jointly think about it. And that's an opening the Coin can use, and use it to get a favourable outcome, because part of the thinking about puzzles is gathering relevant info, like we did from books on dwarf Ancestor Gods, and some of the relevant info on Mathilde's puzzle can be gotten only from some other people gathering in that other place, and so on. And this is not a proposal to try to dupe Cython, honesty all the way, just showing things in the favourable light.

I'm not saying that it's a certainty, but I honestly don't understand how it can be stated that it's impossible and there is no chance.
I don't think it's impossible, just that the chances of it working are too low to really be worth bothering with it. I'm also reasonably sure the Coin can't directly 'nudge' Cython the way you seem to be suggesting- its Gambler effects seem to be little things that compound to larger outcomes, like a tree branch just happening to break, someone just happening to find a particular book, etc. I don't think we've seen the Gambler face directly influence people, just the environment.

As for trying to present this as a mystery to solve in joint cooperation with Cython... imagine you were in the middle of a delightfully challenging crossword, and an acquaintance you get along with but aren't really friends with came up and asked tried to get you interested in teaming up to solve their sudoko puzzle. Because that's pretty much what you're proposing. Chances are, you'd just say no.
 
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I'd like to point out even dragons know they can die to chaos. They have a vested interest in making sure the waystones are working as much as every one else.
 
To take this to its ultimate conclusion, it would be possible for someone to run through iterations of this same question with people like Morathi or Khatep or Lord Kroak or W'soran to extract majorly useful and completely OOC data. The thread knows all Mathilde does about Cython's habits and interests, it's up to the thread to decide whether it's worth trying to recruit them based on the available information.

All that sort of thing would be either bundled into the action or taken care of automatically without requiring future AP expenditure.

Thank you for your answer.

I don't think it's impossible, just that the chances of it working are too low to really bother working with it.
That is reasonable. I disagree with some of details of your reasoning and judge possibility of recruiting and benefits it would give to be high enough to be in favour of trying, but of course everybody makes up their own mind.
 
I'd like to point out even dragons know they can die to chaos. They have a vested interest in making sure the waystones are working as much as every one else.
While this is true, remember that Cython's attitude to a huge Waaagh attacking with likely intent to kill every non-greenskin in the Karak was an unbothered 'you take your shot, if you fail I'll deal with them if they attack me'. I don't think Chaos is an actively pressing enough concern at present for them to really be interested in the Waystones for that reason alone.
 
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While this is true, remember that Cython's attitude to a huge Waaagh attacking with likely intent to kill every non-greenskin in the Karak was an unbothered 'you take your shot, if you fail I'll deal with them if they attack me'. I don't think Chaos is a pressing enough concern at present for them to really be interested in the Waystones for that reason alone.

Then you're not looking at describing the problem in the right way to Cython. There is a unique confluence of circumstances right now that may never again exist in the future to allow the cooperation of Elves, Humans and Dwarves to work on the problem, every year that the situation isn't solved more waystones are destroyed or damaged and left unreplaced. I do think there's enough of a potential hook for it to worthwhile to try, but we absolutely would need the coin involved to have a chance. I think even with the coin we're not going to be better odds than a coin toss.

Also Orcs are well they're not the same category of threat that Chaos is, Galrauch pretty aptly show cases the issue they'd have with daemons.
 
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With Cython, i think the best bet is to try to pick his brain after giving him some new tidbits to his puzzle, and hope he takes interest in the new puzzle.
If he does, he is smart enough to understand that the waystone puzzle is more time sensitive, because waystones are being slowly destroyed.
 
Cython's description of the Elves as 'water-folk' is pretty indicative that, like most non-Elves, he's not that familiar with them, and those that he knows anything at all about were either sailors or traders (or possibly Druchii corsairs). It would only really be accurate to describe the population of one of Ulthuan's Kingdoms as 'water-folk': Cothique, the realm of seafarers. You can stretch that to a second if you think Lothern is representative of all of Eataine,
To be fair, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that Lothern is representative of Eataine. 8th edition Army Book describes Eataine as the "Hinterlands of Lothern", and the only truly notable locations and individuals in the place are all concentrated in Lothern. The only other places of note are the summer homes of Elven nobles from across Ulthuan who want to vacation to a place close to Lothern. They could rename the Kingdom to Lothern and no one would notice the difference.

In fact, before I really got into Elven lore, I always cconfused the two and named the entire kingdom Lothern instead of using Eataine.
 
Then you're not looking at describing the problem in the right way to Cython. There is a unique confluence of circumstances right now that may never again exist in the future to allow the cooperation of Elves, Humans and Dwarves to work on the problem, every year that the situation isn't solved more waystones are destroyed or damaged and left unreplaced. I do think there's enough of a potential hook for it to worthwhile to try, but we absolutely would need the coin involved to have a chance. I think even with the coin we're not going to be better odds than a coin toss.

Also Orcs are well they're not the same category of threat that Chaos is, Galrauch pretty aptly show cases the issue they'd have with daemons.

Yeah but the orcs are a lot closer. Chaos is far away and dragons can fly off and let the mortals hold the line in the Everchosen invasions, it has worked so far right? No need to get involved in their petty affairs.
 
To be fair, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that Lothern is representative of Eataine. 8th edition Army Book describes Eataine as the "Hinterlands of Lothern", and the only truly notable locations and individuals in the place are all concentrated in Lothern. The only other places of note are the summer homes of Elven nobles from across Ulthuan who want to vacation to a place close to Lothern. They could rename the Kingdom to Lothern and no one would notice the difference.

In fact, before I really got into Elven lore, I always cconfused the two and named the entire kingdom Lothern instead of using Eataine.

There's a lot of places where you could apply the following formulation and have a coherent point:
"To be fair, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that [City] is representative of [State] ... the only truly notable locations and individuals in the place are all concentrated in [City]."

For example, two thirds of New South Wales' population lives in Sydney, and three quarters of Victoria's lives in Melbourne. But making that statement with those places inserted would be an extremely effective way to start arguments with the outliers, and be bombarded with candidates for notability outside of those cities. I'm certain the same would be true for Eataine and Lothern, and I'm just as certain there's a lot of Eatainians with a chip on their shoulder over it.
 
If you have the info Mathilde has, and care about your possible future centuries and millenia from now, doubts start to appear about veracity of this conclusion.
Ostrich syndrome is a very real thing, and intelligence and knowledge doesn't really protect you from it. It just means that you ostrich even harder.
 
Does Cython even know anything about Waystones? Because if not, then he's totally useless to us for this purpose. We don't want to bring in people for the sake of bringing in people, or even bringing in everyone who'd have a beef against Chaos. We want people actually useful to the project. We also want people who'll be willing to work with a bunch of mortals to create Waystones, or people we might have connections to politically or ideologically (i.e. allies in the Empire or Karaz Ankor or people who are our fellow countrymen, who're easier to work with and trust and etc) rather than just somebody who seeks after and collects knowledge and is uncaring about sharing that knowledge.

Recruit the best Dwarf Runesmiths, like Kragg somebody we're on decent-ish terms with and who is the best Runesmith there is, recruit wizard Colleges that have a connection to old mystery cults that might know something. Test the waters to see if the Hedgewise, or maybe even Kislevites, might have anything useful. See what you are willing to offer for their knowledge, if it's a price we're willing to pay. Assess whether we can trust these people to work together with everybody else and so on.

But don't just try to get Cython just because you want Cython and think an Emperor Dragon can solve any problem you apply them to. :V
 
Ostrich syndrome is a very real thing, and intelligence and knowledge doesn't really protect you from it. It just means that you ostrich even harder.
Still worth it to make an honest attempt at communication, even if the outcome is uncertain. Even if the recipient is not convinced, it's possible their position would adjust a little, which can be beneficial in case of future interactions.
 
There's a lot of places where you could apply the following formulation and have a coherent point:
"To be fair, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that [City] is representative of [State] ... the only truly notable locations and individuals in the place are all concentrated in [City]."

For example, two thirds of New South Wales' population lives in Sydney, and three quarters of Victoria's lives in Melbourne. But making that statement with those places inserted would be an extremely effective way to start arguments with the outliers, and be bombarded with candidates for notability outside of those cities. I'm certain the same would be true for Eataine and Lothern, and I'm just as certain there's a lot of Eatainians with a chip on their shoulder over it.
Wait, Boney is Australian? Neat!
 
Does Cython even know anything about Waystones? Because if not, then he's totally useless to us for this purpose. We don't want to bring in people for the sake of bringing in people, or even bringing in everyone who'd have a beef against Chaos. We want people actually useful to the project. We also want people who'll be willing to work with a bunch of mortals to create Waystones, or people we might have connections to politically or ideologically (i.e. allies in the Empire or Karaz Ankor or people who are our fellow countrymen, who're easier to work with and trust and etc) rather than just somebody who seeks after and collects knowledge and is uncaring about sharing that knowledge.

Recruit the best Dwarf Runesmiths, like Kragg somebody we're on decent-ish terms with and who is the best Runesmith there is, recruit wizard Colleges that have a connection to old mystery cults that might know something. Test the waters to see if the Hedgewise, or maybe even Kislevites, might have anything useful. See what you are willing to offer for their knowledge, if it's a price we're willing to pay. Assess whether we can trust these people to work together with everybody else and so on.

But don't just try to get Cython just because you want Cython and think an Emperor Dragon can solve any problem you apply them to. :V
Even if Cython doesn't know anything about Waystones, he's probably the best mono-wind caster we know of and he learns new info ridiculously quickly. It wouldn't take long to get him up to speed on Waystones, and from there he'd basically be like a college magister only better (smarter, more generally experienced, etc). The problem with Cython isn't that he'd be unable to contribute, it's getting him to want to.
Still worth it to make an honest attempt at communication, even if the outcome is uncertain. Even if the recipient is not convinced, it's possible their position would adjust a little, which can be beneficial in case of future interactions.
True enough, but my point was basically just that having intelligence and knowledge doesn't necessarily mean you'll act on them, as opposed to going 'not my problem' and doing something more personally rewarding.
 
Even if Cython doesn't know anything about Waystones, he's probably the best mono-wind caster we know of and he learns new info ridiculously quickly. It wouldn't take long to get him up to speed on Waystones, and from there he'd basically be like a college magister only better (smarter, more generally experienced, etc). The problem with Cython isn't that he'd be unable to contribute, it's getting him to want to.
Yes, but is he invested or interested in making a product that will help safeguard the Empire/Laurelorn/Karaz Ankor via Waystones? Or is he only going to be interested in absorbing as much secret knowledge as possible rather than giving anything back? At least the Dwarfs and Human wizards are going to have a give-and-take approach to things -- and also presumably a history of having worked on Waystones, whether through the High Elf-Dwarf collaboration or ancient human mystery cults -- whereas Cython is all "I'm a motherfucking dragon."

Also, at least Dwarfs/Elfs/Humans care at least a little bit about the fact that there's a nation or two in between Norsca and the rest of the world, and so can see the value of Waystones for the human Empire and the Elves. And for that matter, at least the Dwarfs are allied with the humans of the Empire.

What's Cython's reason to care about any of this? "Because Chaos will destroy everyone!" That's not actually a very believable argument for most people. :V A lot of people can be skeptical about how much Waystones are needed, or how integral currently-extant nations are to things, or etc. Or an individual person can think that they're badass enough to handle it anyway, like if they're an Emperor Dragon. Or, hell, that could be a reason for somebody to raise their price; "Oh, you need me so badly for something as important as this? Hmm, okay, I guess I can charge a lot then." "Wait, I can't pay that." "Then I guess it wasn't that important in the end." (Or alternatively, you do pay the price. And then your other co-workers are annoyed that somebody is getting paid a lot, compared to them.) (Or something else. Like maybe having to promise knowledge that belonged to the Elves, in order to get Cython on board. Would the Eonir be happy with that? With their knowledge being used to pay an Emperor Dragon and who knows how committed they'd be to the project, as opposed to just getting as much knowledge and understanding as they can from the opportunity?)


I'd way way way rather focus on getting Kragg the Grim on board next/sometime soon instead. That's a guy that we know would have relevant knowledge -- Dwarf runesmithing -- and which we know would care about the Karaz Ankor (and the Empire too sorta) and would care about rediscovering Dwarf secrets or a Dwarf art. Also, we've got 2 great works from him on us, in the form of our belt and sword, so he's been tremendously helpful already. And are on decent enough terms with him.
 
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Does Cython even know anything about Waystones?
It's the same with all this other colleges and traditions, they might know something useful, or they might not. Cython has millenia of experience and likes solving puzzles by seeking relevant info and thinking out answers, and interacted at least with many other Wind-aligned dragons and probably a multitude of other beings. It could has acquired relevant bits of knowledge just by cultural osmosis, even if in all of its long long life it wasn't interested in anything Waystone-ajacent. Recruiting Cython is like recruiting magical tradition of Wind-aligned dragons.
Because if not, then he's totally useless to us for this purpose.
Even if it has no relevant knowledge, which I think is less likely than the opposite, if Cython would be in the project, it would be interested in its success and would bend its significant magical and learning abilities to achieving it. Its contribution would be at least as big as Mathilde, and quite possibly bigger, as she would have to use her time on non-research activities like management, both inside the project and outside of it, and her own personal businesses; it can even reduce the strain on Mathilde associated with her sharing her time between the project's research and everything else. And it could be quite useful to have an independent capable member of the project not aligned with any organized species and any nearby polity, whose only stake is moving the project forward.
Yes, but is he invested or interested in making a product that will help safeguard the Empire/Laurelorn/Karaz Ankor via Waystones?
That's the point of recruiting, to have Cython interested in this, or at least in participating in activities that would lead to getting knowledge useful for this in the framework of the Waystone project. And I believe it's possible.

Edit: missing word.
 
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Yes, but is he invested or interested in making a product that will help safeguard the Empire/Laurelorn/Karaz Ankor via Waystones? Or is he only going to be interested in absorbing as much secret knowledge as possible rather than giving anything back? At least the Dwarfs and Human wizards are going to have a give-and-take approach to things -- and also presumably a history of having worked on Waystones, whether through the High Elf-Dwarf collaboration or ancient human mystery cults -- whereas Cython is all "I'm a motherfucking dragon."
Well... yeah. That's why I said the problem is getting Cython to want to contribute. Something my earlier posts should have made clear I don't believe we have any realistic chance of accomplishing.
 
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