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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
The Karak Vlag ones were the only Mountains of Mourn Dwarfholds established by the Karaz Ankor. If the Chaos Dwarves have made any, they're not telling.

This was before they had maps of the continent to work off. Most of the Eastern Dwarves turned back and rejoined the Karaz Ankor after realizing the Zorn Uzkul was a barren wasteland. If they were going to spread from Uzkulak, they probably would have searched north into what would have seemed from there to be a substantial mountain range instead of trying their luck with the chain of low hills to the southeast along the edge of the Steppes plateau, because they'd have no way to know that one of the biggest mountain ranges on the planet was on the other side of that range of hills.
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That makes a lot of sense and helped me contextualize it, thanks.

Just for clarity, I meant to specifically ask if there were any records of Dwarf settlements in the Mountains of Mourn, prior to the Eastern Dwarves getting cut-off and corrupted.
But that seems unlikely based on the current details?
 
Resonant said:
That makes a lot of sense and helped me contextualize it, thanks.

Just for clarity, I meant to specifically ask if there were any records of Dwarf settlements in the Mountains of Mourn, prior to the Eastern Dwarves getting cut-off and corrupted.
But that seems unlikely based on the current details?
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None. Dwarven expansion is simple: they want to live in mountains, and mountains come in ranges. Follow the mountains and you get more mountains. Easy. They started out in the Great Mountains of the Southlands and came north, establishing the Old Holds along the World's Edge Mountains as they went. When they hit the edge of that mountain range, they started exploring rivers and coastlines with the help of their new Elven friends, and found the Dragonback Mountains and the Middle Mountains to found Ekrund and Karaz Ghumzul in. They were just started to establish the Young Holds in the much smaller Grey and Black Mountains before the Time of Woes hit. When the Norse Dwarves split off, they went north to the Norscan moutains, which turned out to be huge. When they Eastern Dwarves split off, they went east to the Zorn Uzkul, which turned out - to a Dwarven view, which sees mountains as highways and flatlands as death - to be a complete dead end. To reach the Mountains of Mourn via Dwarven expansion, you need a mountain range, a river, or a coastline to connect the World's Edge Mountains to the Mountains of Mourn. To do this the Dwarves would have to round the entire continent of the Southlands or build a port in the Sour Sea, which is a massive crater lake where the crater was formed by a massive chunk of pure warpstone so the entire area is massively deadly to anything living. They only ever reached the Mountains of Mourn very late in Dwarven history, when international trade between human nations had begun and the Dwarves had solid information that there were mountains out there worth the trip.

Yes, by this logic Karag Dum shouldn't exist. There's a lot strange about Karag Dum.
 
Boney said:
The Karak Vlag ones were the only Mountains of Mourn Dwarfholds established by the Karaz Ankor. If the Chaos Dwarves have made any, they're not telling.



This was before they had maps of the continent to work off. Most of the Eastern Dwarves turned back and rejoined the Karaz Ankor after realizing the Zorn Uzkul was a barren wasteland. If they were going to spread from Uzkulak, they probably would have searched north into what would have seemed from there to be a substantial mountain range instead of trying their luck with the chain of low hills to the southeast along the edge of the Steppes plateau, because they'd have no way to know that one of the biggest mountain ranges on the planet was on the other side of that range of hills.
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Resonant said:
That makes a lot of sense and helped me contextualize it, thanks.

Just for clarity, I meant to specifically ask if there were any records of Dwarf settlements in the Mountains of Mourn, prior to the Eastern Dwarves getting cut-off and corrupted.
But that seems unlikely based on the current details?
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Checking the 8E Ogre Army Book and they show three Holds: Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, and Karak Krakaten. Not that I'm opposed to ignoring random army book maps, and they are all abandoned, just thought I'd mention them.
 
Boney said:
Yes, by this logic Karag Dum shouldn't exist. There's a lot strange about Karag Dum.
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Yeah. Yeah there is. Why was a hold so far away from everything and so near the bad things settled in the first place? How was it still considered part of Karaz Ankor up until the Great War Against Chaos, to the point of sending back diplomatic representatives, when the Norse Dwarf holds (relatively closer) had lost contact long ago? What were they ever doing there?

(I know you're not going to answer any of these questions, but damn that place is weird.)

I guess the dwarves could at least determine an approximate settlement date for Karag Dum by consulting the grudge records and seeing how far back grudges by Karag Dum were registered. That might tell us something.
 
Briefvoice said:
I guess the dwarves could at least determine an approximate settlement date for Karag Dum by consulting the grudge records and seeing how far back grudges by Karag Dum were registered.
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At least according to the Dwarfs, it was settled before the Vortex went up.

It's the last place anyone saw Grimnir when he marched north.
 
Rafin said:
Let's please not dedicate a library to the anthropomorphic representation of deception. What's next? A hospital dedicated to the Gambler and a bank dedicated to the Night Prowler?
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Oh hello didn't expect to see my favorite Psychonauts 2 level referenced here.

Also wow. Did not even realize there was Yet Another Weird Thing regarding Dum.

It looks like we have Thorek 100% on baord. Maybe him poking at a Waystone's rune with some AV help could result in some thing nice? What, me just trying to shill for an AV action? Perish the thought.
 
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.

[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.

[X] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.

[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.

[X] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
 
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Games Workshop had a license to make Lord of the Rings figures in the mid-eighties. It's probably not a coincidence that a lot of 'inspiration' found its way into their totally original IP when they lost the license but still had the molds.
 
Boney said:
Games Workshop had a license to make Lord of the Rings figures in the mid-eighties. It's probably not a coincidence that a lot of 'inspiration' found its way into their totally original IP when they lost the license but still had the molds.
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I actually used to have one of those box sets. Was the one for running a 'Mines of Moria' scenario that I got as a gift. No idea where it's gotten to since then.
 
Maybe Karag Dum was originally founded as a Warplore research facility that then grew into a Hold around the attached dormitories. Like the Antarctic research stations in the middle of nowhere IRL, except the Dwarfs don't do shoddy things like partial settlements.

It'd explain why Karag Dum is considered so odd by other Dwarfs. They're the weird antisocial/nerdy outcasts who volunteered to journey to the edge of the sane world out of curiosity and then decided to hold the ground against all sense.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
I actually used to have one of those box sets. Was the one for running a 'Mines of Moria' scenario that I got as a gift. No idea where it's gotten to since then.
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That might be from the more modern one, when the movies started coming out GW got the license back and made a real go at pushing Lord of the Rings as a third flagship line alongside 40k and Fantasy.

(did I say Lord of the Rings? I meant Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game, previously marketed as The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Strategy Battle Game, The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Strategy Battle Game, The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies Strategy Battle Game and The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game)

Catpetter1981 said:
Also her assassination card, right? It'd be a shame to leave her assassination skills untouched and let them get rusty, since it comes in so useful in so many varied situations.
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Local customs seem to frown on that sort of thing, but the possibility is there.
 
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[X] Pay a visit to your fief, to see if anything has changed. It probably hasn't.
[X] Stirland, to see for yourself how the war against Sylvania is progressing.
[X] Julia, to see what she has gotten up to as Stirland's most experienced spy master.
[X] The Gold College, to see what's become of their research into Skaven technology.
[X] Follow up on your donation of the Skaven organ-vat, and see what has been made of it.
 
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[X] Follow up on your donation of the Skaven organ-vat, and see what has been made of it.
 
Boney said:
I just want Egrimm to try to hit the Light Order like a pinata until books come out?"
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This frustrates me somewhat.

Now for the next few days or more, my brain is going to try and come up with reasons/ways we can use to get Egrimm to go to his college, with a literal bat, or any form of stick for said book pinaita.

Freakin'. Fantastic.

.... :p.

Edit: Feck. Now I want to find a way of getting him to use a bat as opposed to a bat.
 
Boney said:
Games Workshop had a license to make Lord of the Rings figures in the mid-eighties. It's probably not a coincidence that a lot of 'inspiration' found its way into their totally original IP when they lost the license but still had the molds.
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Also the origin of Beastmen, though with Broo from their Glorantha/Runequest license instead of lord of the rings.

Heck by my understanding the empire basically was also the same thing except for licenses for miniatures for historical wargames, which is why Warhammer has basically the only early modern fantasy, the big historical wargames were mostly napoleonic war.
 
reignonyrparade said:
Also the origin of Beastmen, though with Broo from their Glorantha/Runequest license instead of lord of the rings.

Heck by my understanding the empire basically was also the same thing except for licenses for miniatures for historical wargames, which is why Warhammer has basically the only early modern fantasy, the big historical wargames were mostly napoleonic war.
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Yeah, that's why some material exists for Araby, Cathay, Ind, and Nippon - they were at a crossroads between going hard into historical or hard into fantasy, and even got into the first few drafts of a Nippon Army Book before they decided to go the fantasy route instead. And why Bretonnia is such an odd blend of England and France at times, they were trying to use it to cover both bases early on. Similarly, Warriors of Chaos have a lot of Conan going on because that was a big early influence, even though the population bases they draw on are either vikings or steppe nomads.
 
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
 
Boney said:
Yeah, that's why some material exists for Araby, Cathay, Ind, and Nippon - they were at a crossroads between going hard into historical or hard into fantasy, and even got into the first few drafts of a Nippon Army Book before they decided to go the fantasy route instead. And why Bretonnia is such an odd blend of England and France at times, they were trying to use it to cover both bases early on. Similarly, Warriors of Chaos have a lot of Conan going on because that was a big early influence, even though the population bases they draw on are either vikings or steppe nomads.
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Well, for what I was mentioning it's less about "influence" and more about "well we have these models for early modern pike and shot troops, and we have these models for glorantha broo, and we have these models for lord of the rings elves and dwarves... so create a setting with early modern pike and shot trooops, knockoff broo, and tolkien elves/dwarves."
 
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
 
reignonyrparade said:
Well, for what I was mentioning it's less about "influence" and more about "well we have these models for early modern pike and shot troops, and we have these models for glorantha broo, and we have these models for lord of the rings elves and dwarves... so create a setting with early modern pike and shot trooops, knockoff broo, and tolkien elves/dwarves."
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From what can be told this far down the line it doesn't seem like it was that directly Frankensteinian - the '0th Edition', a game called Reaper, came out in 78 and the actual 1st Edition in 83, while GW made the Glorantha models in 82 and the LotR ones in 85. It seems like the Warhammer setting just sort of picked up whatever else the company was working on along the way, rather than being a deliberate blend of everything they had at hand from the start. 1st Edition was written as a roleplaying game with a wargaming element, and they only leaned into the wargaming in later editions after they realized there was a lot of competition for tabletop RPGs (and theirs was apparently not great compared to the others) but there weren't any other large-scale fantasy wargames out there.
 
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