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That's just a sign the american system is superior though. Of course you don't hear about competent spooks killing incompetent ones - being good at quietly murdering people is a key job qualification in their field :p

Even granting that, the notion that you should not flaunt murder in public, that murder is wrong and you should not be caught doing it, that is a prosocial value, one every society on earth has and which the Druchi lack. It is fine when the orcs take it, they are a fungus that grows back, it is fine when the Skaven lack it, they have a god keeping the peace and the balance, but the Druchi do not have those excuses. They are biologically the same as the Asur whose whole shtick is that they are dying out, Khaine is not going to save them from killing each other off over the scraps of power, so what is it keeping them afloat?

Hint: It is the dread god Gamus Workshopus. :V
 
Even granting that, the notion that you should not flaunt murder in public, that murder is wrong and you should not be caught doing it, that is a prosocial value, one every society on earth has and which the Druchi lack. It is fine when the orcs take it, they are a fungus that grows back, it is fine when the Skaven lack it, they have a god keeping the peace and the balance, but the Druchi do not have those excuses. They are biologically the same as the Asur whose whole shtick is that they are dying out, Khaine is not going to save them from killing each other off over the scraps of power, so what is it keeping them afloat?

Hint: It is the dread god Gamus Workshopus. :V
Nah, it's the bonus 'evil' faction ability: offscreen mitosis. All factions that choose the evil alignment get it for free.
 
Or they just have more unprotected sex and, well, frankly having read a few of the dark elf novels there are topics not really fit for public discussion that also speak to the dark elves not having the population issues tthe high elves do. Its a cultural issue that has the Asur onn the decline is what I'm saying rather then a biological one.
 
Because the witch king is immortal and actively social engineering, it means that whenever the backstabbing and treachery gets TOO dysfunctional even for him he can come down and ride herd, rather than being led by someone who has truly absorbed the values in question. Given that a lot of the time the big problems for these dictatorial states happen on succession, it is truly not that unbelievable that an immortal monarch might manage to make things functional... ENOUGH with such a society.

The contrast with the Asur dying out is fair enough, but you know who ALSO isn't dying out the way the Asur are, despite living somewhere that's only occasionally not actively trying to kill them? The Asrai. In a very real sense, the Asur are the odd ones out, not the Druuchii. Perhaps the question should not be "how are the Druuchii not dying out" but instead "why ARE the Asur dying out?"
 
Or they just have more unprotected sex and, well, frankly having read a few of the dark elf novels there are topics not really fit for public discussion that also speak to the dark elves not having the population issues tthe high elves do. Its a cultural issue that has the Asur onn the decline is what I'm saying rather then a biological one.

Having more children is not going to save you when we are talking about a society this dysfunctional. You still need to train them up and that takes time and resources that are hard to come by if everyone is one scented opportunity away from drawing daggers. You can't just toss baby elves on the front to fight for the glory of the Witch King, the same way a Waaagh uses greenskins and the Underempire uses Skavenslaves. As elves they need decades of training to be any good and centuries to come into their full potential.

The other way you could make the Druchi work is massive use of slave legions enslaved by magic
 
Eh... I think that is more the daemon binding. Using slave labor is something many factions do. I mean think of the ogres and their greenskin slaves. If ogres are clever enough to do it to get chaff troops the dark elves should as well.
Labor yes, slavery in general yes, but massive slave-armies to send ahead of your own elite troops and artillery is very much the Chaos Dwarf shtick.
Closest come the Skaven, but they use their own kind, so it's not really the same.
 
I mean think of the ogres and their greenskin slaves.
...the Gnoblars? I don't know that I'd quite describe them as slaves, my understanding is that the Gnoblars sort of just stick around Ogres because that tends to have a slightly higher survival rate, there's not much effort on the part of the Ogres.

They keep giants as slaves, but that's as much trophies as anything.


But in terms of factions using slaves on the battlefield, my understanding is that examples from tabletop are Skavenslaves, Greenskin slaves for the Chaos Dwarfs, and slave-giants for the Ogres.
 
...the Gnoblars? I don't know that I'd quite describe them as slaves, my understanding is that the Gnoblars sort of just stick around Ogres because that tends to have a slightly higher survival rate, there's not much effort on the part of the Ogres.

They keep giants as slaves, but that's as much trophies as anything.


But in terms of factions using slaves on the battlefield, my understanding is that examples from tabletop are Skavenslaves, Greenskin slaves for the Chaos Dwarfs, and slave-giants for the Ogres.
Gnoblars are objectively people who the Ogres keep as property so yeah they are slave. As for Druchii slave armies. They only use their (vast) slave force for labour and as religious sacrifices. They opperate more like Sparta in that they use a citizen army of nobles and freeborn to both wage an eternal internal war on their slaves and conduct war abroad.
 
Gnoblars are objectively people who the Ogres keep as property so yeah they are slave. As for Druchii slave armies. They only use their (vast) slave force for labour and as religious sacrifices. They opperate more like Sparta in that they use a citizen army of nobles and freeborn to both wage an eternal internal war on their slaves and conduct war abroad.

That actually makes it worse though, Sparta was terrible at waging wars abroad because they lived in fear of slave rebellion, yet the dark elves are supposed to be a threat to the global thesalocracy of Ulthuan.
 
That actually makes it worse though, Sparta was terrible at waging wars abroad because they lived in fear of slave rebellion, yet the dark elves are supposed to be a threat to the global thesalocracy of Ulthuan.
Concerning Sparta and it's military capabilities, there's a series of blogs articles about that. Apparently, they weren't that good and their reputation was mostly overblown.

collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school

If you don't want to read all the series, here's the conclusion.

collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vii-spartan-ends
 
That actually makes it worse though, Sparta was terrible at waging wars abroad because they lived in fear of slave rebellion, yet the dark elves are supposed to be a threat to the global thesalocracy of Ulthuan.
Most of the time they aren't a real threat ot Ultuan at all. They just raid everyone else. When they are a "threat" to Ulthuan its almost always Melakith coming up with "one weird trick" to out flank them, and notice how He's Never Beaten Ulthuan.

Economies of scale also work in Naggaroth's favour there. Sparta was a tiny city state and even the Laceadaminon League (I know I'm spelling that wrong) was tiny. Like, ojectively tiny in both population and geography. Naggaroth is geographiclly huge and each individual city state is larger then all of the Laceadaminon and peloponisian Leagues put together. Scale means they can afford larger armies abroad without risking devistating revolt at home.

But swinging back around to the skill of the Druchii at war. Notice how each invation of Ulthuan is seperated by *literal millannia* and how they *still never win* or even come close to true political victory (the closest Melakith ever got was trying to blow up the vortex and take the whole world down with him, ignoring endtimes)? The Druchii, like the Spartans, *aren't* good at war. The best they manage to do is a roman or chinese frontier holding action against the chaos tribes to the north. Which involves as much trade, negotiation and outright alliences as it does military might.

All of the day to day threat they pose to the rest of the world is from their privateer fleets. Which are formed around literal floating islands better thought of as their own small traveling city states allied to Naggaroth then real military forces loyal to the witch king.

Edit: Thanks for sharing Carstein. I have read those blogs before (and agree with them based on my own study) and I'm pretty sure DP has as well based on his arguments but its good to see Bret getting more views! :)
 
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Concerning Sparta and it's military capabilities, there's a series of blogs articles about that. Apparently, they weren't that good and their reputation was mostly overblown.

collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school

If you don't want to read all the series, here's the conclusion.

collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vii-spartan-ends
I should note that the series has issues in ignoring more recent research on Sparta, and taking the written sources to much at their word, as most were written well after Spartas heyday, and those from the Roman era were from a time when the city became a for real tourist trap.
 
Most of the time they aren't a real threat ot Ultuan at all. They just raid everyone else. When they are a "threat" to Ulthuan its almost always Melakith coming up with "one weird trick" to out flank them, and notice how He's Never Beaten Ulthuan.

Economies of scale also work in Naggaroth's favour there. Sparta was a tiny city state and even the Laceadaminon League (I know I'm spelling that wrong) was tiny. Like, ojectively tiny in both population and geography. Naggaroth is geographiclly huge and each individual city state is larger then all of the Laceadaminon and peloponisian Leagues put together. Scale means they can afford larger armies abroad without risking devistating revolt at home.

But swinging back around to the skill of the Druchii at war. Notice how each invation of Ulthuan is seperated by *literal millannia* and how they *still never win* or even come close to true political victory (the closest Melakith ever got was trying to blow up the vortex and take the whole world down with him, ignoring endtimes)? The Druchii, like the Spartans, *aren't* good at war. The best they manage to do is a roman or chinese frontier holding action against the chaos tribes to the north. Which involves as much trade, negotiation and outright alliences as it does military might.

All of the day to day threat they pose to the rest of the world is from their privateer fleets. Which are formed around literal floating islands better thought of as their own small traveling city states allied to Naggaroth then real military forces loyal to the witch king.

Edit: Thanks for sharing Carstein. I have read those blogs before (and agree with them based on my own study) and I'm pretty sure DP has as well based on his arguments but its good to see Bret getting more views! :)

All this is very insightful, thanks. I just wish GW would mention stuff like this in canon so the limitations on the bad guys actually feel like they exist beyond Heroes Save the Day. I mean the whole Druchi invasion of Ulthuan and the twins involvement in it would read differently if we knew from the start that the invaders are on a time limit.
 
All of the day to day threat they pose to the rest of the world is from their privateer fleets. Which are formed around literal floating islands better thought of as their own small traveling city states allied to Naggaroth then real military forces loyal to the witch king.

You know there's a thought, what would happen if one of the Black Arks captains decided do just sail away and tell the Once and Future Asshole to fuck off? You know go do their own thing corner some other corner of the world. There are probably parts of Norsca that would welcome them with open arms for one. Would an ark have enough elf population to sustain a splinter state I wonder?
 
All this is very insightful, thanks. I just wish GW would mention stuff like this in canon so the limitations on the bad guys actually feel like they exist beyond Heroes Save the Day. I mean the whole Druchi invasion of Ulthuan and the twins involvement in it would read differently if we knew from the start that the invaders are on a time limit.
Time limit? What time limit? When Malekith's invasion culminated in the Battle of Finuval Plain he wasn't on a time limit. If he'd won that battle it was practically a certainty he'd have won the war and taken Ulthuan.

You know there's a thought, what would happen if one of the Black Arks captains decided do just sail away and tell the Once and Future Asshole to fuck off? You know go do their own thing corner some other corner of the world. There are probably parts of Norsca that would welcome them with open arms for one. Would an ark have enough elf population to sustain a splinter state I wonder?
It probably wouldn't survive Malekith's retribution. Black Arks are hardly invulnerable. They also probably don't sustain any population. They can't grow food after all.

I personally also disagree with the idea that the Balck Arks are somehow separate from Malekith's own control. Unless you're portraying him as an idiot, he wouldn't let such valuable resources go. More likely, they're manned with loyalists and even then usually kept close.
 
Time limit? What time limit? When Malekith's invasion culminated in the Battle of Finuval Plain he wasn't on a time limit. If he'd won that battle it was practically a certainty he'd have won the war and taken Ulthuan.

The time limit here being 'before all the slaves rebel and burn all your crops so even if you win you get to eat ash and dirt'. If they really are like the Spartans that would be a serious threat, with all those soldiers away made all the worse by how cold and unforgiving the land is.
 
You know there's a thought, what would happen if one of the Black Arks captains decided do just sail away and tell the Once and Future Asshole to fuck off? You know go do their own thing corner some other corner of the world. There are probably parts of Norsca that would welcome them with open arms for one. Would an ark have enough elf population to sustain a splinter state I wonder?
Possibly. Their main weakness (other then the possiblity of retalitory attack from either Naggaroth or being marked as fair game for the other Black Arcs by Melakith) would be that their economy relies on selling their captives and hunts to Naggaroth for food, repairs and fresh recruits. If they could make the transition to not beign turboassholes they could maybe settle down. There probably are a few who hang around Sartosa and other pirate havens who are only nominally under Malekith's control and never actually directly trade with Naggaroth or support his invasions of Ulthuan but also don't actively break from him for the reasons I listed above. Also its a dangerous world out there for a Druchii not supported by Naggaroth, Asur want to kill you, Dawi want to kill you, Humans want to kill you, Skaven want to kill you, its 50/50 if Asrai or Eonir want to kill you, nehekharans want to kill you, lizardmen want to kill you etc.

Time limit? What time limit? When Malekith's invasion culminated in the Battle of Finuval Plain he wasn't on a time limit. If he'd won that battle it was practically a certainty he'd have won the war and taken Ulthuan.


It probably wouldn't survive Malekith's retribution. Black Arks are hardly invulnerable. They also probably don't sustain any population. They can't grow food after all.

I personally also disagree with the idea that the Balck Arks are somehow separate from Malekith's own control. Unless you're portraying him as an idiot, he wouldn't let such valuable resources go. More likely, they're manned with loyalists and even then usually kept close.
Have you read the army books or novels? Cause they are all very explicit that Black Arcs are the propety of their noble family and no one else.
 
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The ultimate problem is that were don't see the population boom needed anywhere. There aren't huge military academies, there aren't creches that the cities are oriented around, and ask of the values that are needed to raise competent, effective children are deprecated. Again, skaven have ratmothers, orcs have fungus, humans have short lifecycles and large families. Where is the dark elf population coming from? Large nuclear families where the parents fund and teach their children? Communal creches where the results of rampant hedonism are delivered and raised and taught by the softer, gentler slave castes? If the second, who funds them, and who manages the indoctrination?

Like, the creation and raising of children is fundementally what every society has to be oriented around, else it disappears in a generation. How the dark elves work should be possible, but I don't think you can thread the needle of all three of 'plausible logistics', 'reflects the fluff', and 'plausible evolution from high elf society'.
 
The time limit here being 'before all the slaves rebel and burn all your crops so even if you win you get to eat ash and dirt'.
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure there's any slave revolt in Naggaroth on record.

I mean, you look at the Chaos Dwarfs and a decent chunk of their history and story is about slave revolts and the steps they take to avoid them, but I'm not sure there's anything similar for the Dark Elves.
 
The ultimate problem is that were don't see the population boom needed anywhere. There aren't huge military academies, there aren't creches that the cities are oriented around, and ask of the values that are needed to raise competent, effective children are deprecated. Again, skaven have ratmothers, orcs have fungus, humans have short lifecycles and large families. Where is the dark elf population coming from? Large nuclear families where the parents fund and teach their children? Communal creches where the results of rampant hedonism are delivered and raised and taught by the softer, gentler slave castes? If the second, who funds them, and who manages the indoctrination?

Like, the creation and raising of children is fundementally what every society has to be oriented around, else it disappears in a generation. How the dark elves work should be possible, but I don't think you can thread the needle of all three of 'plausible logistics', 'reflects the fluff', and 'plausible evolution from high elf society'.
I'm not sure how the freeborn do it but the nobles have massive families and are extremely sexually profligate. While only the children of the monogamous pair stand to inherit bastards are open and accepted and freeborn. The system, again like the spartans, wouldn't survive a large die off but they've never had one. When they go to war, true war, they always use summoned daemons, allied chaos tribes, black arc elves, shades and just plain mercinaries as auxilliaries to absorb casualties.

They also don't have the issue of a expanding freeborn population and a shrinking noble population like sparta did since Malekith reserves the right to enoblement and exercises it often. Indeed his personal guard is built around the promise of a title and land on retirement. Its also important that unlike sparta their slaves are not just a heriditary caste but part of an ongoing international slave trade and freeborn dark elves cannot fall into it heriditary poverty with no way out in the same was as freeborn spartans. So they don't have the kind of issues that the spartans or CSA had with the helots and more like what the roman empire had to deal with in terms of slave revolts. To be clear both systems are horrible they just have different material conditions.
 
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I could be wrong, but I'm not sure there's any slave revolt in Naggaroth on record.

I mean, you look at the Chaos Dwarfs and a decent chunk of their history and story is about slave revolts and the steps they take to avoid them, but I'm not sure there's anything similar for the Dark Elves.

Then we are back to the dread god Gamethullu Workshotep giving them advantages they should not have since it is one of the universal truths of societies that base their economies on slave labor that they are going to have large slave rebellions.

Of course that is one of the cases where the 'everything is written IC' actually works because who but the Druchi will have enough access to Nagoroth to record its history, and they are certainly not going to record mass slave revolts, it would make them look weak.
 
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