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It's a bit of both. There are Jade spells for things like improving the fertility of cattle, and Amber spells for things like taming animals.



If they thought of the crystals as living things that were being cared for by them, it's possible.
...hmm.

This implies single-wind users might be capable of some stuff that's really far outside of the usually expected capabilities of their wind if they have an unusual enough mindset. Or just, y'know, take a ton of drugs.
 
...hmm.

This implies single-wind users might be capable of some stuff that's really far outside of the usually expected capabilities of their wind if they have an unusual enough mindset. Or just, y'know, take a ton of drugs.
I mean, yeah. Shadowsteed would like a word.
 
If they thought of the crystals as living things that were being cared for by them, it's possible.
Put like that, you might have someone who applies ghyran to fire. It would take really rare circumstances (maybe someone tasked with keeping embers alive so they can be later used to start new fires?). I guess it shows the difference between the human and elven approaches to magic.
I mean, yeah. Shadowsteed would like a word.
I think that's an elven spell?
 
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On the topic of Shadowsteed:

Most spells are only recorded as a set of instructions that will create a specific effect, without any record of the logic behind those instructions. Some were never recorded out of selfish pride or paranoia on the part of the inventor, others were invented by the Elves or by civilizations lost to history so the College only has access to the spell itself, still others are so steeped in a specific Wizard's unique viewpoint that they could only be understood by themselves. Consider Shadowsteed: to your mindset, Ulgu is not a swift wind, nor one especially attuned to horses. If you'd never heard of the spell, you'd think it better suited to Hysh or perhaps Ghur. But you tend to think first in terms of Elemental Ulgu, the fog and the shadow, where the inventor of the spell was much more Mystical and drew inspiration from the inexorable march of dawn and dusk that loop the world every day. Most Grey Wizards can cast the spell, but few could recreate the underlying logic unless they dedicated themselves to the study of the moments on the cusp between day and night.

Humans have been doing Wind magic for the entirety of recorded history. Teclis did not start anywhere near from scratch with the founding members of the Colleges, a great deal of the spellbook comes from non-Elven sources, and some of the spells Teclis gave the Colleges were not originally made by humans.

Hypothetically, could someone raised to worship Gazul create a "Shadowflame" or "Deathflame" spell, due to the associations between Shadow, Death and Fire within Gazul's domain?

Hypothetically, raising someone to believe a completely invented association could let you perform any arbitrary task with any given Wind. But in practice the discovery this usually leads to is that deliberately raising people in ways completely incompatible with reality for the sake of One Weird Trick almost always leads to the violent and unmourned death of the person doing it. So Mystical associations tend to be restricted to things that actually reflect reality.
 
Hypothetically, raising someone to believe a completely invented association could let you perform any arbitrary task with any given Wind. But in practice the discovery this usually leads to is that deliberately raising people in ways completely incompatible with reality for the sake of One Weird Trick almost always leads to the violent and unmourned death of the person doing it. So Mystical associations tend to be restricted to things that actually reflect reality

Ah, so there's only so far you can push reality before reality pushes back.
 
@Boney Rereading the Okral bits, I see that pre-Okral Belegar wanted to restore the Barrows and Flamestone first, then Ghuzur and Diamondhelm. But the Okral and the Karak only ended up clearing out and setting up mines in the Barrows and Flamestone before they left. Is that due to a reordering of priorities thanks to the difficulty of working with the Okral? Some sort of complication that popped up? I noticed the Karak is only mining Silver mines at the moment, so the Iron mines are probably the other ones like Ghuzur, Diamondhelm, Red Axe and Ironfront.

And on that note, did they collapse the Trench, filling it in with rubble? Or did they leave it and only fortify it with watchmen looking over it?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm getting closer and closer to having a full image of the Karak. Looking forward to be able to show the thread what I've been working on.

EDIT: I made a mistake, Belegar wanted Ghuzur, Uzkul, Diamondhelm and Flamestone all open. His demands were very ambitious in the beginning. Shame they didn't play out.
 
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@Boney Rereading the Okral bits, I see that pre-Okral Belegar wanted to restore the Barrows and Flamestone first, then Ghuzur and Diamondhelm. But the Okral and the Karak only ended up clearing out and setting up mines in the Barrows and Flamestone before they left. Is that due to a reordering of priorities thanks to the difficulty of working with the Okral? Some sort of complication that popped up? I noticed the Karak is only mining Silver mines at the moment, so the Iron mines are probably the other ones like Ghuzur, Diamondhelm, Red Axe and Ironfront.

EDIT: I made a mistake, Belegar wanted Ghuzur, Uzkul, Diamondhelm and Flamestone all open. His demands were very ambitious in the beginning. Shame they didn't play out.

Belegar's ambitions and the very finite Dwarven population of the Karak often disagree on things, and without checking a map, the mining population concentrating in Karagril means the northern mines got focused on over the southern ones, and Karak Azul sitting on a stockpile of approximately all the iron, ever, means that there's more demand for silver.

And on that note, did they collapse the Trench, filling it in with rubble? Or did they leave it and only fortify it with watchmen looking over it?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm getting closer and closer to having a full image of the Karak. Looking forward to be able to show the thread what I've been working on.

It's outside the defended perimeter, it's below the original Karak and was entirely dug by Skaven. The parts of it that led to what seemed like external access tunnels were filled in, but it'd be the work of generations to completely fill them all and it would literally undermine the Karak to collapse it.
 
I have to remind myself that just because Belegar says to get something done doesn't mean it's gonna get done like he wants it to. I'm used to Mathilde's overachieving, but then again Belegar never gives her specific instructions. He just tells her to run wild.

It also helps that the things he tells her to do don't necessarily need dwarfpower, which is in drastically short supply.
 
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Humans have been doing Wind magic for the entirety of recorded history. Teclis did not start anywhere near from scratch with the founding members of the Colleges, a great deal of the spellbook comes from non-Elven sources, and some of the spells Teclis gave the Colleges were not originally made by humans.
Galenstra knew how to cast a textbook version of Shadowsteed, though. Would elves ever use spells designed by humans? Or any non-elven mages except for long-forgotten Lizardmen, who I don't see riding horses.
 
The Bitch King and his mother are some of the most powerful magic users in the world, I wouldn't count them as typical Golden Age elves.
Far as I'm aware, Morathi's immortality is explicitly from some ritual she devised, given that she gave Hellebron an imperfect version of it that wears off quickly and takes more and more sacrifices with every use.

The Elf that I wonder about is Alith Anar- he's of a similar age to Hellebron but doesn't seem... aged.

Skaven have very low lifespans, couple decades if they lucky, but grey seers can survive much longer thanks to magic, alchemy and "favour" of their god.
Not even just Grey Seers, Ikit Claw has been alive for at least 800 years.
 
Far as I'm aware, Morathi's immortality is explicitly from some ritual she devised, given that she gave Hellebron an imperfect version of it that wears off quickly and takes more and more sacrifices with every use.

The Elf that I wonder about is Alith Anar- he's of a similar age to Hellebron but doesn't seem... aged.


Not even just Grey Seers, Ikit Claw has been alive for at least 800 years.
Doesn't Alith Anar have a Crown that can temporarily stop time according to his 8th Edition kit? When you have an artifact of that level of power, I would no longer question how you lived thousands of years.
 
I'm not sure if the timeline really works out, but is it possible that the Old Ones saw the gestation of the Gods the Elves managed, and then decided to follow up on that via humans? Humans excel at feeding warp entities via worship, and growing relatively... energetic(?) souls in short periods of time?

According to the elven version of history at least, their gods came into existence sometime after the fall of the warp gates, making what had previously just being myth real, but that doesn't preclude them existing in some latent form within the Aethyr previously, just unable to think or act because of the strength of the boundary between the real and unreal.

Far as I'm aware, Morathi's immortality is explicitly from some ritual she devised, given that she gave Hellebron an imperfect version of it that wears off quickly and takes more and more sacrifices with every use.

Morathi's eternal youth is thanks to her being the original Bride of Khaine.

Hellabron's issue isn't that her immortality wears off, it's that her appearance of youth takes more sacrifices to maintain, and her vanity means she can't stand looking like a crone while her rival still looks like she's in the first flush of youth.

Older elves do look older, they just don't necessarily die from it, they just look old for a very long time, like dwarves, is the implication.
 
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So I'm starting to think the way it works is that the Winds of Magic objectively exist and the Elves are right (shock, awe). But. If you can convince enough people, especially those with the touch of Magic, to buy into a Big Lie the more and more it comes closer to being reality, allowing you to bend the rules. And if you manage to get enough people to buy into it, you might actually straight up break them without exploding. But it takes a whole bunch of effort, so it genuinely isn't worth it if you can just manipulate the Winds at all.

(I should probably not theorize on three hours of sleep)
 
The Elemental stops before it reaches you and raises a hand, and stone spreads out from its fingers until it is holding out a stone depiction of a tablet, and the surface of it ripples as Khazalid appears upon it. Visitor to Vala-Azril-Ungol; there exists danger within the Karak. Please proceed to safety at: Bok. None found. Please inform Runelord: Bok. None found. Please inform Archmage: Bok. None found. Please inform Runelord... And the writing repeats itself over and over until it reaches the end of the tablet. Underneath that, Eltharin runes, Classical characters, Nehekharan hieroglyphics, and another language you don't recognize perform what you assume to be the same repetition.
you know, I half-forgotten, but the Liberty of dusk might be the only chance of finding out the name of the Archmage of K8Ps during the golden age was... not his full collection of notes, obviously, but maybe a name and clan on some registry or mention as a contributor or something.

and that might be a clue to actual information.
 
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So I'm starting to think the way it works is that the Winds of Magic objectively exist and the Elves are right (shock, awe). But. If you can convince enough people, especially those with the touch of Magic, to buy into a Big Lie the more and more it comes closer to being reality, allowing you to bend the rules. And if you manage to get enough people to buy into it, you might actually straight up break them without exploding. But it takes a whole bunch of effort, so it genuinely isn't worth it if you can just manipulate the Winds at all.

(I should probably not theorize on three hours of sleep)
so what your saying is... if we can become seen as the* authority on a magic topic: waystones, mists, windherding etc

and we use the coin to tell a lie (that's believable enough that they don't just assume we are crazy) about it to say it works 'such and such' way.

it might become retroactively true!
 
You don't built a world-spanning thalassocracy if you aren't in the business of extracting value from other cultures.
Yep yep, makes sense, good point well made and all, but if the Elves did get Shadowsteed from humans, I don't understand this reaction:
(Mathilde might not either, so we don't necessarily need an explanation.)
He runs his eyes over you, and he cannot conceal his surprise as his gaze meets your Shadowsteed. After a moment he tears his gaze away and goes still as he focuses, and over a few seconds he draws in and shapes Ulgu into a textbook-perfect example of Shadowsteed, bearing none of the tweaks, shortcuts, adaptations or personalizations that every human Wizard develops
Still, when I first read it, I thought it might have been surprise that the uncultured barbarian human could cast the very useful spell, one that's not about killing things. It could be our unique customizations, but they're neat, not show-stoppingly awesome, right(?)

But now, either what, this spell is 4,500 years old and the Eonir inherited from Ulthuan pre-War, or they grabbed it from humans themselves sometime since then, particularly as it's a Platonic Shadowhorse.
I guess maybe Galenstra didn't know it came from humans, hence the surprise?
Or, is he completely thrown by a Mastered chiselhands version of the spell?
 
I was born shortly before Thorgrim's hundredth year on the Throne of Power
If we're talking about what Thorgrim's age is, Belegar here gives a little bit of a hint. We don't know how old Thorgrim was when he took the throne, but Belegar is in his 90's right now. So it's been around 190-200 years since he became High King.
You nod solemnly, having seen that attitude yourself, from Thorgrim himself and from Kragg and from so many others. A sense of doomed fatalism, that doing all in their power isn't enough to turn back the tide, and all it will accomplish is being able to meet their Ancestors without too much shame. "So the assumption is that Karag Dum is doomed," you say. "Zhufbar and Karak Kadrin will do their duty and invest expertise and resources, but not many Dwarves, because that is the one loss they can least afford."

"If all I had at my disposal were Dwarves, I'd do the same," Belegar says frankly. "But for all the bravery and artifice of the Dwarves, it was men that held the line at the Battle of Karag Nar and the Battle of the Citadel, it is men that hold Death Pass and keep us connected to the Karaz Ankor, and it was a joint project between the Runesmiths and the Colleges that shattered Waaagh Birdmuncha. If the Karaz Ankor has a future, it is alongside the men of the Empire, as High King Kurgan Ironbeard decreed so long ago. So I sent you."
This line was already amazing the first time I read it, but it feels even better reading it after knowing the results of the Dum expedition. Sometimes a line that already hit hard hits even harder in hindsight.
 
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