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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Fission Battery said:
I'm personally glad the Waystone Project won out. It's much more important than becoming some Border Princess. We can put all our magical knowledge to good use in a way nobody else besides us could. that's more valuable to the world than another warlord.
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Different paradigms. One is the in universe question "where could we do the most good" and the other is the meta question "what is most interesting to read as an apathetic practically deific entity".

Not that the answers cannot align, but for many people there will be disparate replies.
 
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BeepSmile said:
Whelp, if a communication method to very quickly relay information from the observatoon room back to local forces wasn't made at the time, then it probably can't be via runic methods, and I wouln't trust a magic method to be safe from eventual Changer interferance, never mind expect a dwarf to rely on it.
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Well, hold on here - when Boney says the way they sent messages was through Dwarven War Yodeling, that's not quite the same thing as not having a way to quickly relay messages via runic methods. Remember the first Thorgim interlude, when the message that the K8P gyrocopter was coming in was announced aloud by the sentry and Thorgrim read the message off his alerts feed before the runner made it to him?

I'll bet you anything that proper Dwarven War Yodeling has some traditions about the right locations it should be used in, and there may or may not be transcribing runes at those locations. They're useless unless someone in on the secret knows where to read the transcription, but we know for a fact that it is possible to quickly relay spoken information via runes.

/missing the point
 
Fission Battery said:
I'm personally glad the Waystone Project won out. It's much more important than becoming some Border Princess. We can put all our magical knowledge to good use in a way nobody else besides us could. that's more valuable to the world than another warlord.
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And it'll be funny when word finally filters out to Thorgrim about what Mathilde up to.

Thorgrim: "A shame your former Loremaster is no longer available. But it seems Dwarven might and ingenuity will need suffice in Mount Silverspear's reclamation."
Belegar: "Yes, a shame. But she is a Loremaster, and you know how they get in search of knowledge. Moved on to some sort of project about connecting lost Waystones to the network, apparently."
Thorgrim: (makes a face like he's just sipped hot ale)
 
And even as I speak great canals are being dug to link the waters of Zhufbar and Barak Varr with the rivers of the Empire.
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Easy to miss with everything else going on in that speech, but look at how Thorgrim is talking about the canal project as the third example of great deeds by the dawi alongside the reclamation of K8P and the rescue of Karak Vlag. This is quite a change of tune! Remember how the Chamberlain of the Seal told us that Karaz-a-Karak had nothing to say about the canal project and seemingly no interest in it? Now Thorgrim has just told all the monarchs of Karaz Ankor that he considers the Canal to be a Great Deed worthy of inclusion in recounting things that are going right for the dawi.

That was quite a statement.
 
Fission Battery said:
I'm personally glad the Waystone Project won out. It's much more important than becoming some Border Princess. We can put all our magical knowledge to good use in a way nobody else besides us could. that's more valuable to the world than another warlord.
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Being Border Princess isn't just some "warlord", it's about stabilising a historically turbulent area for the benefit of multiple polities and increasing the standard of life for the tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of people living in that area.

Additionally, I don't see it as our job to fix the Warhammer setting. Frankly, I'm not even sure that's possible. The magical dreamland scenario of pushing the Wastes back is such an extreme that I doubt it'll actually happen. The most likely scenario is we learn how to protect and maintain the existing waystones, and learn how to siphon of a small amount of energy to power nearby magical structures, similar to the Sword of Gazul.

Weighing one as "more valuable" than the other is a false judgement, especially when there are people in the thread who would be excited to read about a border princess arc.
 
I really think relitigating old votes that have long since been closed is causing pain for no purpose. Sometimes it can be useful if you think there was a mistake made that should inform future votes, but the job choice vote is what it is. (Yes, feel free to bookmark this to use against me next time I fall into that trap myself.)
 
Briefvoice said:
Easy to miss with everything else going on in that speech, but look at how Thorgrim is talking about the canal project as the third example of great deeds by the dawi alongside the reclamation of K8P and the rescue of Karak Vlag. This is quite a change of tune! Remember how the Chamberlain of the Seal told us that Karaz-a-Karak had nothing to say about the canal project and seemingly no interest in it? Now Thorgrim has just told all the monarchs of Karaz Ankor that he considers the Canal to be a Great Deed worthy of inclusion in recounting things that are going right for the dawi.

That was quite a statement.
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The political implications are staggering. It's pretty much an explicit show of support for the canal project, tying it into the new age Thorgrim is trying to usher. For better or worse, it's become a source of dawi pride.

It's no longer a project managed by individual kings, but backed by the might of the Karaz Ankor. If Marienburg declares war over the canal, I believe Thorgrim will defend the project to the hilt for the sake of his kingship and the revival of the dawi. That shifts the balance of power heavily to the Empire, unless Ulthuan is willing to commit the same support to Marienburg as well.
 
Unlucky Bibliophile said:
The political implications are staggering. It's pretty much an explicit show of support for the canal project, tying it into the new age Thorgrim is trying to usher. For better or worse, it's become a source of dawi pride.
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I do hope that means Thorgrim will be able to mediate if the project backers still can't agree on the method of changing elevation.
 
Briefvoice said:
Easy to miss with everything else going on in that speech, but look at how Thorgrim is talking about the canal project as the third example of great deeds by the dawi alongside the reclamation of K8P and the rescue of Karak Vlag. This is quite a change of tune! Remember how the Chamberlain of the Seal told us that Karaz-a-Karak had nothing to say about the canal project and seemingly no interest in it? Now Thorgrim has just told all the monarchs of Karaz Ankor that he considers the Canal to be a Great Deed worthy of inclusion in recounting things that are going right for the dawi.

That was quite a statement.
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To be fair, the Chamberlain found no interest in matters of trade specifically, whereas Thorgrim is looking at the Canal and seeing an incredible boost to the interconnectedness of the Karaz Ankor, which isn't just a matter of trade.

I don't know if K8P was reclaimed at that point though, and Thorgrim's priorities have certainly dramatically shifted since then.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
To be fair, the Chamberlain found no interest in matters of trade specifically, whereas Thorgrim is looking at the Canal and seeing an incredible boost to the interconnectedness of the Karaz Ankor, which isn't just a matter of trade.

I don't know if K8P was reclaimed at that point though, and Thorgrim's priorities have certainly dramatically shifted since then.
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K8P wasn't fully reclaimed at the point when the canal was proposed. I'm not sure when breaking ground actually happened though.
 
MooseHowl said:
Thorgrim: (makes a face like he's just sipped hot ale)
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Next time Thorgrim does something that annoys or in any way upsets our secondary cinnamon-bun (Belegar), I advocate that we get Thorgrim a kitty-cat. We let him fall in love with that kitty-cat.

Then: some dark dark night, we steal away into Thorgrim's home and punch him in the mouth.

No. That's too kind.

We steal away into Thorgrim's home, and then apply some method that results in Thorgrim drinking warm ale.

Fuck Thorgrim.
All my homies hate Thorgrim.

---
(I jest for the sake of memery, I don't hate Thorgrim. The-QM-formerly-known-as-BoneyM has written posts from his perspective that resulted in me not being angry, just disappointed.)
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I think he'd still be angry at Thorgrim for hiding this—if the waystones were so important, why didn't KaK commit more resources to K8P? Why did Thorgrim chose decay and decline when he had the knowledge needed to reclaim and rebuild? Why did he sit on his throne spending lives on trivialities instead of reaching for the glory and honour of the ancestors?

And yes, that's exactly what Thorgrim is apologising for in this update—but is it, in Belegar's mind, enough?
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A_Somebody said:
I'm not sure he knew. As far as he was concerned, reclaiming was just gonna add mroe Grudges and potentially more of a drain on Valaya's runes.
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DragonParadox said:
Indeed, as critical as I have been about Thorgrim it seems unreasonable to assume that he would not have done much more to get the Old Hods back if he knew they were the key to saving his people. Indeed the shock in his interlude when the crown reconnects the K8P to the network makes this very likely.
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I agree.
It should be remembered that the Throne is old.
The secrets to its construction or how it actually works were likely never known by anyone that wasn't the Ancestor Gods.
The secrets to its operation were likely fully known only during the Golden Age and even then to the High King and his immediate successor/closest family only.

Over the millennia as Dwarves kept being hammered, the knowledge of the functions it had were likely lost, never shared forward because there was just so many other pressing issues to deal with and who cares what subfunction 25a activation method c for whatever protocol is, when you're worried about loosing holds or the Great Works powered by the Throne in the first place. I mean, do you care about the information that it automatically reconnects to lost Old holds back to the network if the designated key-artefact is brought into range, when the very thought implies that most Old Holds have been lost for an extended period of time and dwarf civilization is already otherwise on its last legs and the knowledge likely utterly useless?

When the alarm klaxons began to sound for the first time, I doubt anyone even knew it had alarm functions.
And when Thorgim inherited it, I doubt he knew the alarm could even be shut off by any method except running completely out of power. Reconnecting old power sources by just taking back an Old hold and then the Throne automatically re-calibrates and bob's your uncle? Please, as if anything could be that easy - nothing has been that easy for the Dawi ever since their downfall started all those centuries ago - and most likely the method to reconnect an Old hold back to the network would require skills and knowledge long lost to the ages even if one could be retaken.
Just another piece of crucial information from the better times, lost forever and forever diminishing the dwarves. Thus it has been, thus it would continue to be.

And then against all expectations, a miracle happened.
 
You know, people are probably going to wonder why Thorgrim is obsessed with making sure the crowns of whatever Hold he recaptures is found. Assuming all the key items for reconnecting are crowns which he probably will because it's the sort of thing that makes sense.

I don't know, just a funny thought.
 
Speaking of Durin, Ulthar mentions this after the Karag Lhune battle:
Boney said:
"Well, before the Time of Woes was the War of Vengeance, and before the War of Vengeance we actually somehow got along with the pointy-eared buggers. If you believe the stories - and maybe you shouldn't, because there's many a Longbeard that considers history to be the ore one smelts and shapes - we were stupid enough to teach the bastards the secrets of torsion and tension so their sailors could defend their trade ships. What Kragg found in that armoury, and somehow prevented himself from smashing to pieces, appears to be a proof of concept. A bolt thrower that fires six lesser bolts between reloads." He shrugs, and drinks. "O'course, that could all be krut. Maybe some cheeky Engineer decided to tweak some noses by proving whatever Elgi could do, Dawi could do better. Maybe the stupid thing doesn't even work, which is why it was sealed up in the Armoury instead of fighting and dying with the rest of the Hold. Whatever it is, it's Durin's problem now."
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I wonder if Durin is still wrestling with this thing? Against the right kind of enemy (for which a standard ballista is overkill), it unleashes sextuple the rate of fire of a traditional bolt-thrower. While also being just as good as a regular bolt-thrower against hardened enemies.

Durin is from Karak Norn, which loves them a good wooden siege weapon. I kinda want to find an excuse to visit.
 
Garlak said:
For the Media threadmark, looking at the the page numbers of where posts are...

College Rolodex
Book Accessibility

Those two are still in the wrong place. They're in the older parts when they should be in the more recent area.

Also, I actually found a Threadmark entry that got placed a little bit too far ahead instead:
Loremaster Weber in diplomatic negotiations with the We, 2482 (Colourized)

This one should be placed a couple entries back. It's in between "An Objective Analysis" and "Waaaghltzing Mathilde", but it should be back between "College-Approved Manuel of Queekish" and "The We's Stealth School" instead.
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Yeah, threadmark ordering gets wonky sometimes. Thanks, fixed.

Codex said:
@Boney I've gone through the quest for every mention of Karag Rhyn being the Smelting mountain and Mhonar being the civilian mountain and recorded it. It's under the spoiler:
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This is a big help, thanks. I must have had it the wrong way around in my notes, back when they were a few folders full of inconsistently-named text files instead of a personal wiki.

TalonofAnathrax said:
Will we at least get the opportunity to join the reclamation proper when the Dawi march to war ?
If they're getting Imperial reinforcements, that would be a perfect opportunity for Mathilde to join in!
I know that I'd vote for it, at least.
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Hard to say what Mathilde will be doing that far in the future, but most likely yes.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
And considering that one of the kings standing before him is an actual slayer as well, that's not a statement to be made lightly.
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Doubly so, as the central dichotomy of the Slayer Kings is they recognize that acting as a Slayer is the complete opposite of acting as a King. And Ungrim was almost High King before Thorgrim stole the show, and Ungrim's demonstration of worth was an avenged Grudge in the form of the head of a giant while Thorgrim's was a collection of recovered golden-age artefacts.
 
Ah, I guess I'll need to up my estimation of Thorgrim's intrigue ability.

He got annoyed enough by Mathilde slipping by him in Vlag that he takes her seriously now.

An old reclamation is the first strike, especially with the appeal to dredging the Karaz Ankor out of it's spiritual pit, to catch her interest.
A fight against greenskin, which is an area which Mathy excel and can again prove her waaagh theories, and is scheduled for a long period of time after her many years of itchy feet in a research position.
And finally, an ancestor gods-damned wonder which is purpose meant to monitor all passage over a huge area and is likely magical and might spot her through ulgu shenanigans.

Truly, Thorgrim is determined to finally catch the elusive Loremaster for a chat before she could disappear on him again.
Will our brave heroine live up to the challenge of eluding the best the Karaz Ankor can offer?
 
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On the subject of Thorgrim's character, honestly in this scene I feel like he looks at himself the same way Belegar does: He's a dwarf seeing what he promised and swore to do, the Dawi he once was, and what he has fallen to. How low he feels he had to stoop given what he was left with.

And then, with the reclamation of Eight Peaks and Vlag thereafter in quick succession he then sees that his despair was a lie. With the new wonders of the Canal Project to compliment old recovery he sees that there is still more than can be done, Progress that can be made, even with as far as the Karaz Ankor have fallen.

But where Belegar is near declaring a grudge over the fall of the Dwarf he once admired, that Dwarf himself is able to be more direct about matters, and swears to redeem himself of his failures to his oaths.
 
It feels like all of our efforts for the Dawi has lead up to this moment. This is everything I was hoping for from Thorgrim, that he himself would regain enough hope to fight for the future instead of the past.

Boney said:
In doing so I claimed a crown that would otherwise have gone to King Ungrim or to King Belegar's grandfather.
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I did think it odd that the former High King Candidate is now just "King Belegar's grandfather". I assume since he was focused on the naming and crediting of the people in front of him.
 
Boney said:
Yeah, threadmark ordering gets wonky sometimes. Thanks, fixed.
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Still needs a bit of shuffling around.

Book Accessibility got moved up, but it's not quite in the right place; it should be a few places up, in between "Grungit Grungit Ungorit" and "Rules to Surviving Warhammer Fantasy"

Grey College Org Chart is still in the old place, and needs to be moved up to... in between "Dämmerlichtreiter" and "Mathilde's Dwarf Diplomacy Class".

Also, I just noticed another entry just a few bits above Grey College Org Chat that is out of place. Approved Spells should be moved up a few places, fortunately not too far, to in between "An Eclectic Publication History" and "Sword Speculation"

... Oh, huh, I just realized what might have caused another problem. You mentioned that merging Sidestory and Apocrypha might have made a mess, right? Well, moving some of the former-Informational threadmarks (which were player-made) might have done the same.

Let me take a look at the links on the Player-Created Informational Posts and see if any of them are oddly located... Ah, okay, found stuff. At least they're from the same rough threadmark area as the Approved Spells/Grey College to boot though, which made it fast to locate.

Okay, so, this area actually had 2 more mistakes that I just now noticed, though at least they only need to be moved only a few spots over:

Player-Created Multi-Action Plans should be placed after "Excerpt from Mathilde's notes on Aethyric Vitae". Notes on Ranald's Coin should be placed after that. Fortunately, these things are right next to each other.
 
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