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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
One does not preclude the other. You know how a lot of religions have the concept of original sin, of living in a fallen world? Kragg is like that he thinks all the world is fallen and he still thinks he is the best at what he does and is beyond questioning by anyone alive.
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Can it really be called out as Kragg's arrogance if by the codes, tenets and values of the society he is a part of and was raised by, he literally is beyond questioning? As both a Runelord and a Living Ancestor, only a dwarf who was older than him could claim any greater authority over his knowledge than him, because in a dwarf's view, Living Ancestors are effectively minor gods-to-be in their own right, just ones that are not likely to be a part of any pantheon but their Clan's.
 
So what I'm getting is that both Arsanil and Kragg really are *that good*, have very similar attitudes towards those who are not, and the main difference between them that makes Arsanil come off as more abrasively arrogant than Kragg is there's less of an element of 'but he's suffering, we can fix him!' with the Dragonrider?
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Can it really be called out as Kragg's arrogance if by the codes, tenets and values of the society he is a part of and was raised by, he literally is beyond questioning? As both a Runelord and a Living Ancestor, only a dwarf who was older than him could claim any greater authority over his knowledge than him, because in a dwarf's view, Living Ancestors are effectively minor gods-to-be in their own right, just ones that are not likely to be a part of any pantheon but their Clan's.
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His arrogance shows in the fact he won't even consider teaching another Runelord anything, because he is so superior to them that they are unworthy to even be his apprentice. A runelord is barely worthy to stoke his forge because they might see some of his brilliance.

He doesn't just believe he's better than other runesmiths, he believes he's so much better than them that they don't deserve the opportunity to follow in his footsteps.

It may be that this kind of arrogance is natural to old dwarves, but that doesn't stop it being arrogance.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Can it really be called out as Kragg's arrogance if by the codes, tenets and values of the society he is a part of and was raised by, he literally is beyond questioning? As both a Runelord and a Living Ancestor, only a dwarf who was older than him could claim any greater authority over his knowledge than him, because in a dwarf's view, Living Ancestors are effectively minor gods-to-be in their own right, just ones that are not likely to be a part of any pantheon but their Clan's.
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Yes. I mean a character flaw that is enforced by the society you live in is no less character flaw. I am sure there are plenty of people who do not accept common wisdom who see it that way, they are just quite about it because criticizing Kragg would be social suicide.
 
Glau said:
Just gonna point out that we've got almost nothing to judge what a "usual" elf is like, and so going with a blanket 'they are all arrogant pricks' is really not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

@Codex , I loved your read of the king and his general, and I am here for that headcannon.
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As some peeps have already said, its more judging him by what's known of other Asur and specifically Caledonians.

They certainly don't think they're being arrogant, just stating the facts they know to be the case and I'm very confident most elves don't think about humans at all during the day to day.

From that perspective Asarnil is certainly not that bad, he's arrogant for certain, but he's far from seeing humans as unable to do anything.

I'd argue he's got a more developed view of peeps that's a lot more paternalistic/patronising than most, but he's a long way from contemptuous of humans or others races.
 
Glau said:
So what I'm getting is that both Arsanil and Kragg really are *that good*, have very similar attitudes towards those who are not, and the main difference between them that makes Arsanil come off as more abrasively arrogant than Kragg is there's less of an element of 'but he's suffering, we can fix him!' with the Dragonrider?
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I'd say it's more that Arsanil is happy to talk down to people and remind them that he's just better than them, while Kragg simply doesn't talk to people who haven't earned it and is gruffly cordial to those who have.
 
Glau said:
So what I'm getting is that both Arsanil and Kragg really are *that good*, have very similar attitudes towards those who are not, and the main difference between them that makes Arsanil come off as more abrasively arrogant than Kragg is there's less of an element of 'but he's suffering, we can fix him!' with the Dragonrider?
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Essentially they've very different views of their own self worth and how that impacts their characters and interactions.

I have to admit I didn't find Arsanil too abrasive (a lot less than I was expecting to be honest).

The ironic thing being that there's arguably a lot more we could do to "help" Asarnil than Kragg. His problem is mostly self created and his solution is the kinda thing we can aid with by sending big missions with pay outs too. By contrast Kragg's trying to single handily roll a boulder up a mountain Sisyphus style.

Near as I can tell recruiting Kragg for the project could be a big thing in how this goes down for him. He is the best, but also filled with self loathing, so if he can actually get a "win" in the sense of understanding the work of his predecessors, he'd be...well reinvigorated is probably the word since he won't magically become a better runesmith, nor necessarily become more willing to try new things. If it fails then its a reminder of how bad everything is to him.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Near as I can tell recruiting Kragg for the project could be a big thing in how this goes down for him. He is the best, but also filled with self loathing, so if he can actually get a "win" in the sense of understanding the work of his predecessors, he'd be...well reinvigorated is probably the word since he won't magically become a better runesmith, nor necessarily become more willing to try new things. If it fails then its a reminder of how bad everything is to him.
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The problem is that you don't get to be a millenia old dwarf without being deeply traditionalist, and helping a bunch of elves poke at the works of your ancestors as about anti-traditionalist as you can get.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The problem is that you don't get to be a millenia old dwarf without being deeply traditionalist, and helping a bunch of elves poke at the works of your ancestors as about anti-traditionalist as you can get.
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Point of order: rebuilding the work of your ancestors, the same way your ancestors did it, alongside the same people who originally helped them, and who you don't have a Grudge against (the elf Grudge is against Ulthuan as political entity), is the most traditional thing there is.

The real reason Runesmiths will be unhappy to participate is there is no trust that they won't be cheated or have suffer attempts of theft, because no in-depth relation has been built in the way Dwarves normally would before attempting this kind of cooperation. But this is not strictly a traditionalism issue.
 
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065tdsa said:
Point of order: rebuilding the work of your ancestors, the same way your ancestors did it, alongside the same people who originally helped them, and who you don't have a Grudge against (the elf Grudge is against Ulthuan as political entity), is the most traditional thing there is.
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I mean, playing with words is not gonna change the way Dwarfs feel about Elves.

Elves bad. Period. There is just about nothing except literal millenia of actually trying to mend the rift will do due to nature of both species.
 
pucflek said:
I mean, playing with words is not gonna change the way Dwarfs feel about Elves.

Elves bad. Period. There is just about nothing except literal millenia of actually trying to mend the rift will do due to nature of both species.
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Boney has mentioned multiple times that while Dwarfs and Elfs dislike each other, they're not sworn enemies. The Grudge has been avenged, and the Eonir have not touched the Karaz Ankor. They're capable of reason, a big part of Boney's writing of the Dwarfs has been focused on that.
BoneyM said:
Sworn enemies is overstating things. Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor have been at peace for four thousand years. They don't like each other, but apart from a handful of revanchist twits on each side both consider the War of the Beard to be ancient history, and save their enmity for the Druchii or for the greenskins and Skaven. Similar applies to the Eonir: they were rather angry that after the Old World colonies claimed the status of Ulthuan's eleventh kingdom during the Sundering, Caledor II reasserted Ulthuan's dominance by threat of force. But, again, four thousand years. They've been independent for twenty times longer than they were discontented subjects of Ulthuan.
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I very much doubt we are going to get Kragg or Thorek: we should try if they are an option but both are busy with their own projects and fairly conservative.

We are going to need to judge who is possible, with how radical they are and how good they are.

they need to be good enough to get results, be radical enough to be willing to go with along with things that would make more conservative dwarfs claim up or even quit, and be recruitable.

I firmly believe getting the right runesmith(s) will be the hardest part of 'stage 1'.
 
pucflek said:
I mean, playing with words is not gonna change the way Dwarfs feel about Elves.

Elves bad. Period. There is just about nothing except literal millenia of actually trying to mend the rift will do due to nature of both species.
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Dwarves also hate dragons, they have since before they met the Elves. But Asarnil is an Elf on a Dragon and he can get dwarven contracts, because he put the work in and as an Elf who isn't affiliated with the Kingdom of Ulthuan he isn't actually subjected to the relevant grudges.

Getting a Runesmith to do anything is always going to be harder, and getting Kragg to do anything is always going to be the hardest, but there are no actual hard walls standing here.

The way I figure it we'll get a Runesmith, certainly some manner of radical. Later, if we have meaningful progress that has stalled due to lack of rune knowledge, and nothing that could be considered an Incident, we can tempt Kragg with the idea of actually finishing an ancient project.
 
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Codex said:
Boney has mentioned multiple times that while Dwarfs and Elfs dislike each other, they're not sworn enemies. The Grudge has been avenged, and the Eonir have not touched the Karaz Ankor. They're capable of reason, a big part of Boney's writing of the Dwarfs has been focused on that.
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Dwarves and Elves are not enemies in the same way that Soviets and Americans weren't. Last time Ulthuan forces got even remotely close to Old World (To chase down Morghur Shadowgave), large parts of Karaz Ankor were getting ready for war because they thought it was pretext for invastion. This is Quest canon.

You might also remember that BoneyM mentioned that there are still Ulthuani revanchists that hunt down Dwarves for beard scalps.

Just because they don't pursue open hostilities anymore the way Dwarfs do when they declared grave grudge doesn't mean they aren't what i would call "enemies".
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I very much doubt we are going to get Kragg or Thorek: we should try if they are an option but both are busy with their own projects and fairly conservative.
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On the flip side if there's anyone capable of getting them to cooperate that person is going to be Mathilde at least if we're talking about mere mortals. They've got to be interested in the whole saved a Karak thing and in the possibility for a Karak to be affected by the Waystone network.
 
pucflek said:
Dwarves and Elves are not enemies in the same way that Soviets and Americans weren't. Last time Ulthuan forces got even remotely close to Old World (To chase down Morghur Shadowgave), large parts of Karaz Ankor were getting ready for war because they thought it was pretext for invastion. This is Quest canon.

You might also remember that BoneyM mentioned that there are still Ulthuani revanchists that hunt down Dwarves for beard scalps.

Just because they don't pursue open hostilities anymore the way Dwarfs do when they declared grave grudge doesn't mean they aren't what i would call "enemies".
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And the Eonir are not Ulthuan. The Dwarfs are capable of understanding that considering they hire a former Ulthuani as a mercenary.
 
Codex said:
And the Eonir are not Ulthuan. The Dwarfs are capable of understanding that considering they hire a former Ulthuani as a mercenary.
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The dwarfs are so capable of understanding that that as a polity they still consider Druuchi to be of Ulthuan.

Like, i get what you are trying to say, i really do, but we were talking about Kragg the Grim's involvement in the Waystone project. While the general antipathy against elves isn't "BURN THE ELVES" level, it still exists and in none more strongly than in old coots like him.
 
People talking as if Asarnil is arrogant for no good reason should remember that one does not become the old world's most expensive mercenary without earning it.

He cut out the eyes of a presumably skilled norscan in the middle of a duel in the blink of an eye.

That gets you bragging rights
 
There's a big difference between a dwarven commander hiring the most famous mercenary on the continent, and a dwarven priest helping an elven mage unravel sacred secrets.

Can dwarves work with elves? Yes, generally.

Will Kragg work with elves in this specific situation? Probably not.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There's a big difference between a dwarven commander hiring the most famous mercenary on the continent, and a dwarven priest helping an elven mage unravel sacred secrets.

Can dwarves work with elves? Yes, generally.

Will Kragg work with elves in this specific situation? Probably not.
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Sacred secrets imply that the Dwarves consider their works of cooperation with the Elves to be sacred. But when they came across a Bolt Thrower that was a combined project between Elves and Dwarves in Karak Lhune's vaults, they sealed it away and tried to forget about it, despite it being an artifact of their Golden Age.

Kragg wouldn't reveal rune secrets if he would be working, reverse engineering runesmithing from Kragg's work is probably impossible considering how confused Mathilde was when she looked at him doing his work (which he didn't hide from her eyes btw).
 
kingreaper said:
His arrogance shows in the fact he won't even consider teaching another Runelord anything, because he is so superior to them that they are unworthy to even be his apprentice. A runelord is barely worthy to stoke his forge because they might see some of his brilliance.

He doesn't just believe he's better than other runesmiths, he believes he's so much better than them that they don't deserve the opportunity to follow in his footsteps.

It may be that this kind of arrogance is natural to old dwarves, but that doesn't stop it being arrogance.
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Being allowed to see Kragg work was functionally a religious experience for that Runelord. It's hardly Kragg's fault that no one ever takes the invitation to spend the next three hundred years getting gud enough to submit an application, and instead chooses to go and die.

Breaking that arrogance would take us back around to breaking dawi society until it fits a mold that we find acceptable.
 
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