10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Read the full sentence, maybe?
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
When the QM gives warnings, heeding them is hardly nitpicking. It's just reading the text as it is written.
Advanced stealth missiles have combat advantages, allowing us to use a lower ratio of missiles to kill a platform, and are less likely to be spotted. They're not a guaranteed success, with zero chance of complications.
That is just the reasonable take, just as hacking is not a guaranteed take-over of the entire WMD system.
Advanced stealth missiles have combat advantages, allowing us to use a lower ratio of missiles to kill a platform, and are less likely to be spotted. They're not a guaranteed success, with zero chance of complications.
That is just the reasonable take, just as hacking is not a guaranteed take-over of the entire WMD system.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
So, I have three thoughts at the moment.
First is... I think the Anexa chaos vote should maybe be done separate from the plan? As a single line item, I mean, so those can be tallied separately from the overall turn plan.
Second, there seems to be some consensus towards positioning ourselves to win a messy exchange with the mechanicus ASAP, without actually trying to start it yet. If so - @Neablis , will we have the opportunity to switch from [] educate to [] subvert next turn for handling the mechanicus breadcrumb study groups? I think gearing up our subversion after we're satisfied we can win when we're discovered would be an agreeable course of action based on the current discussion. First secure the minimum acceptable outcome (we survive and so does the planet), then start taking more risks to work towards being able to win more cleanly (we convert or capture more mechanicus enclave inhabitants and assets instead of destroying all of it). That kind of thing.
Third... I think neablis was implying that we can put Victan to work this turn when he responded to my question about that? But unless I missed something, I don't see anyone actually tasking him with anything. He can add a bonus to the mechanicus breadcrumb roll if we're willing to trust out the gate.
First is... I think the Anexa chaos vote should maybe be done separate from the plan? As a single line item, I mean, so those can be tallied separately from the overall turn plan.
Second, there seems to be some consensus towards positioning ourselves to win a messy exchange with the mechanicus ASAP, without actually trying to start it yet. If so - @Neablis , will we have the opportunity to switch from [] educate to [] subvert next turn for handling the mechanicus breadcrumb study groups? I think gearing up our subversion after we're satisfied we can win when we're discovered would be an agreeable course of action based on the current discussion. First secure the minimum acceptable outcome (we survive and so does the planet), then start taking more risks to work towards being able to win more cleanly (we convert or capture more mechanicus enclave inhabitants and assets instead of destroying all of it). That kind of thing.
Third... I think neablis was implying that we can put Victan to work this turn when he responded to my question about that? But unless I missed something, I don't see anyone actually tasking him with anything. He can add a bonus to the mechanicus breadcrumb roll if we're willing to trust out the gate.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
I think the math on that is faulty, because it's not just the orbitals that we need to survive. It's the orbitals + the ballistic missiles + any possible ground invasion.
More importantly, our allies are nowhere near prepared for an actual exchange, and heck, they've succesfully managed to divert attention so that we do not, in fact, need to fear one.
So, monofocusing on anti-orbital defenses just seems misguided?
There's no grand urgency, and all you're doing is delaying and leaving us vulnerable for more turns.
If we build factories this turn, then next turn we can put up void shields, and missiles, and anti ground defenses, having a defense against the entire Mechanicus trifecta.
If we build defenses this turn, and the next, then we will have holes remaining.
Insult Everyone!
Master of Evil but bad at it.
- Location
- Right behind you~
Right so. The way I see it we have roughly three trains of thought going.
1. GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!
Argument: Shit's about to go down. Focus on getting ready to rumble. Immediately.
Pros: we can get started next turn. We won't be in top shape, but we'll be strong.
Cons: missed out potential.
2. Factorio mode
Argument: Shit's about to go down, but we have some time still. Let's rapidly max out our manufactories while we still can!
Pros: We'll have the industrial power to achieve just about anything we'll want to.
Cons: We'll be exposed for a turn.
3. Hybridise
Argument: We don't want to fight immediately, but neither do we wanna risk the exposure of going all-in on manufactories. Let's split the difference.
Pros: We'll be ready, but we'll still be scaling up.
Cons: Both prep and growth will be worse.
Besides that we have Mechanicus and Victan up in the air. But the consensus seems to drive towards educate-subvert.
Victan hasn't been discussed much, but people seem to agree with letting him on board and prob help with nabbing the Tech-apprentices.
Personally, my vote leans towards factorio-hybrid. With educate now, subvert in a few turns. Or maybe educate for now, but layer the puzzles so that they'll trend towards subvert as they breach through?
1. GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!
Argument: Shit's about to go down. Focus on getting ready to rumble. Immediately.
Pros: we can get started next turn. We won't be in top shape, but we'll be strong.
Cons: missed out potential.
2. Factorio mode
Argument: Shit's about to go down, but we have some time still. Let's rapidly max out our manufactories while we still can!
Pros: We'll have the industrial power to achieve just about anything we'll want to.
Cons: We'll be exposed for a turn.
3. Hybridise
Argument: We don't want to fight immediately, but neither do we wanna risk the exposure of going all-in on manufactories. Let's split the difference.
Pros: We'll be ready, but we'll still be scaling up.
Cons: Both prep and growth will be worse.
Besides that we have Mechanicus and Victan up in the air. But the consensus seems to drive towards educate-subvert.
Victan hasn't been discussed much, but people seem to agree with letting him on board and prob help with nabbing the Tech-apprentices.
Personally, my vote leans towards factorio-hybrid. With educate now, subvert in a few turns. Or maybe educate for now, but layer the puzzles so that they'll trend towards subvert as they breach through?
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
I am utterly in love with Anexa's futurist art deco look. I wish I could find pictures of a similar look, but a few minutes of Google searching sadly didn't bring up anything immediately obvious.
I understand we're all talking about stealth fighters and missiles to deal with the satellites, but I would also make a smaller request that if possible we should also develop some kind of powered armor that our companions can wear. Anexa is protected while inside our ship, but that may not always be the case, and with this spy guy potentially being a new companion introduced, we're going to have to ensure the survival of our organic crew components.
Also I imagine establishing some kind of basic powered armor that while not Space Marine quality is still at least as good as say StarCraft marines, would be a very valuable trade commodity once we do get off world. Any number of planets would love to have the ability to make those at a somewhat reasonable pace.
I understand we're all talking about stealth fighters and missiles to deal with the satellites, but I would also make a smaller request that if possible we should also develop some kind of powered armor that our companions can wear. Anexa is protected while inside our ship, but that may not always be the case, and with this spy guy potentially being a new companion introduced, we're going to have to ensure the survival of our organic crew components.
Also I imagine establishing some kind of basic powered armor that while not Space Marine quality is still at least as good as say StarCraft marines, would be a very valuable trade commodity once we do get off world. Any number of planets would love to have the ability to make those at a somewhat reasonable pace.
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meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Every single one of the additional votes is literally told by Neablis in the update to be counted as part of existing plans themselves.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, we really ought to get ready for things to go hot in about 3 turns.
Honestly, I think we're good with the Spaceports and Shuttles. Mag rail is too expensive and we're running out of time.
Huh, I would have thought they would be able to take on more than that at once, but perhaps I'm just underestimating how big these satellites are and how powerful whatever lascannons are on the fighter.
Anyways, I think for this coming fight we should just go with basic stealth Fighters, they're significantly more versatile with a higher success rate and can help fight against both the killsats and the nukes.
We also need to start making preparations next turn to make a force that can storm the Enclaves so we can take them, and if things go hot we WILL need to assault them. Though before we do that, it would be appreciated if @Neablis could say about how much Heavy or Medium Infantry we would need to assault each Enclave.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
[] Plan : Functional Infrastructure
-[] Build 1 : 13 Manufactories (1300 BP
-[] Build 2 : 14 manufactories + Underground Medium void shield (550 BP)
-[] Build 3 : Underground Medium void shield (2450 BP) + Underground Antiorbital defense (200/300 BP) (2650 BP)
-[] Research : Improved Passive Stealth (100 RP) , Machine spirit jamming (100/150 RP)
-[] Additional Votes
--[] Educate
--[] Chaos : Yes; the basics, do and don't, and in very vague detail the nature of the threat, as well as your own inexperience with it, and your suspicion of it's involvement with the downfall of galactic civilization.
--[] Victan : Trial period as a liason, for now. Give him access to some military projections, a small budget list of equipment, and a list of known mechanicus assets. See what wargames he comes up with. Is he prioritizing Aevon over other nations, willing to sacrifice you, or does he do something clever? Who knows, maybe he suprises you. For now however, not entrance to the ship, no AI revelation.
Don't have time to flavor everything up properly, I do think that expanding manufacturing is important. With these factories, next turn we can both prep missiles, as well as finish laser defenses and anti orbit defenses.
-[] Build 1 : 13 Manufactories (1300 BP
-[] Build 2 : 14 manufactories + Underground Medium void shield (550 BP)
-[] Build 3 : Underground Medium void shield (2450 BP) + Underground Antiorbital defense (200/300 BP) (2650 BP)
-[] Research : Improved Passive Stealth (100 RP) , Machine spirit jamming (100/150 RP)
-[] Additional Votes
--[] Educate
--[] Chaos : Yes; the basics, do and don't, and in very vague detail the nature of the threat, as well as your own inexperience with it, and your suspicion of it's involvement with the downfall of galactic civilization.
--[] Victan : Trial period as a liason, for now. Give him access to some military projections, a small budget list of equipment, and a list of known mechanicus assets. See what wargames he comes up with. Is he prioritizing Aevon over other nations, willing to sacrifice you, or does he do something clever? Who knows, maybe he suprises you. For now however, not entrance to the ship, no AI revelation.
Don't have time to flavor everything up properly, I do think that expanding manufacturing is important. With these factories, next turn we can both prep missiles, as well as finish laser defenses and anti orbit defenses.
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You're still launching stuff to space, so there's a risk, mostly in the part where fifty shuttles get launched to space. That doesn't mean there's not a reason to do it! Your spacelift capacity with your current spaceports caps out at 1000 with two spaceports, which is 100 missiles per turn. For a good margin of safety you want 150 missiles in space, so 50 this turn and 100 next turn is not a bad strategy. It does come with the risk of the mechanicus noticing.
Yeah, these are accurate. 5% is about right - though they wouldn't necessarily know exactly where they came from unless you got a very low number on a second roll. Just that there are launches being made from somewhere, carrying something up to space. At that point they'd probably send their own shuttles up to track down just where your missiles are and investigate one, then get extraordinarily paranoid when they figure out what they are.
The critical part here is the "Somewhat higher." Basic missiles are probably a 10% chance or something, while the advanced stealth gets you a 5% chance of detection each turn.
Also - the Aevon/Mechanicus rolls are going to continue each turn, and on a crit fail they'll start investigating you regardless.
I dunno, is 5% realistic?
This is deciding how you go about handling them going forward. It'll be going on in the background automatically. You can change it in the future, but only as part of an action.
Yeah, you can. If you accept him/he accepts you, you could put him to work on a subversion action immediately.
If this is underground, say so.
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Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
Hmm. I'm not sold on going in so hard on manufacturing and hoping for the best... But we might have to, I'm not actually sure we can prep enough to be able to take them after this turn. If so, I'd recommend switching out the jamming for the improved stealth fighter schematic, cause it'll be useful much sooner.
- Location
- Don't know
- Pronouns
- Whats/That
We'll decide on what the plan is when it's vote time. Everyone that has a plan ready, double check to be sure it's the direction you want to take with it.
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
If you write up a draft now, you can probably get someone else to repost it when the vote goes live.
Edit: Here's a version of mine that ditches the jamming in favor of more aggressive buildup.
[ ] Plan Draft: Hoping for the Best, Preparing for the Worst.
-[ ] Research (200 RP)
--[ ] Improved Passive Stealth (100 RP)
--[ ] Improved Stealth Fighters (100 RP)
-[ ] Construction Act 1 (1300 BP)
--[ ] Manufactory x13 (1300 BP, 650 CP)
-[ ] Construction Act 2 (1950 BP)
--[ ] Manufactory x8 (800 BP, 400 CP)
--[ ] Anti-Orbital Defenses, concealed x2 (400 BP, 10 CP)
--[ ] Medium Void-shield Installation, concealed (750/2000 BP)
-[ ] Construction Act 3 (2350 BP)
--[ ] Medium Void-shield Installation, concealed (750 +1250/2000 BP, 50 CP)
--[ ] Anti-Orbital Defenses, concealed x3 (600 BP, 15 CP)
--[ ] Improved Stealth Fighter x?? (500 BP, ?? CP)
-[] Anexa passive action: Education - Roll to level, difficulty is 10+5xLevel
-[] Promote acolytes
-[ ] Anexa Explanation: We tell her how dangerous Chaos is, but also that we have countermeasures that seem to be sufficient for now. We think we understand how the men of iron were subverted and are confident that we can avoid the same fate, and that she's not in too much danger - but, never the less, we urge caution on this matter, and would like to keep her inside our shielding as much as possible and urge her to avoid the subject until we have better countermeasures.
-[ ] Victan Yes: We bring him on board and tell him his job is to help us coordinate with the Aevon government and deceive the mechanicus, and not to pry into our secrets. If he does well at this, we can consider recruiting him to our crew more permanently.
Edit: Huh, I didn't realize how close to the line this many manufactories was skirting. I might need to cut those numbers down? Which frees up build capacity in this turn overall... Not sure what to spend it on though. Another defense lance? More stealth fighters? :/
Edit x2: Yeah fuck it, some of both. Lets go.
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- Pronouns
- Zack
Could Vita build a factory ship in the future?
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Hmmm. I might go for the opportunity of immediately throwing everything in to even more manufactories in that case. Shocking, I know. Better stealth missiles is nice, but if we can just flood the orbit with numbers and use them on the same turn to minimize the window of detection? It will be almost as good.
Also, perfect is the enemy of good enough and all that. I don't think it is a good idea to to spend more time researching for the perfect counter to the Mechanicus, when other threats might be closing in and Mechanicus and ACI are playing cat and counter-intelligence mouse about what Aevon is hiding under the nose of Mechanicus. Instead, I plan to go with multiple approaches when the time comes.
Magnetic catapult launcher for throwing basic SSMs (Space Stealth Missile) to the orbit (after we complete their blueprints on the next turn) should allow us to alpha strike hard. Hacking is currently good enough if we keep to reasonable goals, like distracting their detection and disabling the kill-sats and nuke launch capabilities temporarily. Combine with jamming, even sub-par jamming if we have a bad roll, and we should get our window of opportunity. And with even "basic" stealth fighters, we will have the capability of taking out ICBMs mid-flight. And one Medium Void-shield to top it all off.
With all taken together... We should be able to take on the Mechanicus on the turn after this if it looks like we really need to. But with two turns, it will be considerably safer if we can afford it. Anyway, my plan allows flexibility, so that if bad things happen we will have at least a chance of salvaging things.
Also, changed free poke to databases to learning about the internal political/philosophical/theological divisions inside the AdMech, and the details on how Hereteks are found. And what kind of arguments are used to brand people as such, and what is needed for it to be done successfully. Besides that, opening up a bit more about Chaos for Anexa than in my previous write-in. Some wording changes for Victan's action, as well as applying him to educate-action for helping to conceal it, if mechanically-legal.
[] Plan: Mag-Rail To Heavens
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[] You believe its yet again time for diving into the distinctly non-wonderful world of the faith of the Priesthood of Mars. This time, you are looking into its various internal sects. What are their goals and means, basically always being some form of technology they specialize in. Their philosophical and theological outlooks into technology as well as knowledge. The amount of political (and so almost always also military) power they wield. Maybe most importantly, what and who can be declared Heretek, and for what reason. Because if you are going to be sneaking in education to the acolytes of the Enclaves, you need to understand how to conceal them better in to the byzantine labyrinth that is the Mechanicus. Should also help maybe in finding fault-lines in hindering their cooperation.
-[] Construction x3 (5950 GBP = 1300 GBP + 1950 GBP + 2700 GBP)
--[] Construction slot, 1st (1300 GBP)
---[] 13x Manufactories (100 BP, 50 CP)
--[] Construction slot, 2nd (1950 GBP)
---[] 14x Manufactories (100 BP, 50 CP)
---[] Underground Magnetic Catapult launch system (550/3000 BP, 50 CP)
--[] Construction slot, 3rd (2700 GBP) (50/50 of non-noticable surface installations)
---[] Underground Magnetic Catapult launch system (3000/3000 BP, 50 CP)
---[] 10x Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP) (10/25 for global anti-ICBM coverage when needed, currently stored in spaceports)
-[] Research x1 (200 RP)
--[] Research slot, 1st
---[] Blueprint: 50 RP - Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP)
---[] Machine spirit jamming (150 RP)
-[] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 45 -> 20)
-[] Anexa passive action: Education - Roll to level, difficulty is 10+5xLevel
-[] Additional Votes
--[] Educate (if Victan becomes available, apply here in helping to conceal this if mechanics-legal)
--[] Now (Write-in): Tell Anexa that you've found a warp-based cognitohazard. Limit the information to the basics of the nature of the Chaos, and the rough warning signs. Also tell her about your plans for the miniaturized shielding, as well as potentially a modification to her brain augmentation implant, mimicking the general function of what you've done to yourself. One might be enough, but both would likely be safer. Though if she doesn't want the implant-modification (if it works at all), you understand. It would likely be pretty invasive. You are planning to tell the specifics later, hopefully after figuring out how to shield her from the worst of the danger in some way. But even if those mitigation measures don't pan out perfectly, tell that you are still committing to revealing the full truth of what you know later anyway. Because you trust that she can navigate the dangers involved, and also because you might end up needing help if your shielding fails.
--[] Yes (Write-in): Let Victan first know about your slow efforts at subverting small numbers of acolytes in the Enclaves, and introduce Anexa. Then tell him what you have managed to put together what happened since your accident. Touch on the topic of Chaos very lightly, even less than you did with Anexa. Just that something has had an observable effect on the a type of shielding on your ship which had gone out of general use, and is a cognitohazard... Especially dangerous to you. And then reveal why that matters in this context, and why you need Aevon as allies. Admit that your mere existence endangers their world. Tell him the truth about you being an AI, and how you would very much like to have a safe port in a galaxy that is very hostile to beings like you. Then tell him why you want the people of Aevon as your allies. Because way back then, when Victan was first assigned as your contact? You weren't lying about his people reminding you of those from your past, those who are nowdays called the Ancients. Finally, show him what you are building and designing to take out the kill-sats and nukes. And promise that if it is in your power, his people will be free to chart their own destiny by the time you leave.
EDIT: changes to where to apply Victan.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Huh?
Whether or not they're ready for a strategic exchange on their own, they're clearly preparing for it, doing well at preparing for it, and pretty damn ambitiously if helping us on the sats is only "likely" to be off the table.
If it's not clear, even having to specify the orbital fight is very telling about their preparations for the nukes they already knew about before.
Like, these guys are actively interfering in mechanicus operations. They're taking more risks than we are! And the outcome should give you an idea of what detection means here, because what they're doing is being detected - but not attributed, just like what would happen if they rolled that 5% to find a stealth missile.
The result? The lesson about what happens if some of our prep is discovered after it's already been staged?
It's that some of the mechanicus will get paranoid. Whether they're paranoid of the right thing as opposed to, say, blaming a rival enclave is a separate question. Whether or not they succeed in convincing anyone else that there is something to be paranoid of is another. And if both things happen whether or not they succeed in convincing others to be paranoid about the thing they say deserves paranoia is another! Whether that paranoia then escalates to the point of launching all the nukes and thereby writing off most if not all of their plans for the future...
Yeah, no. The risk of all that coming to pass from the choices of any plan on the table right now is so negligable as to be outweighed by the risk they discover us turtling in our existing manufacturing base - something that can happen, right now, just from background rolls.
There is no such thing as absolute safety. Only degrees of risk, and being slow comes with its own slate of it.
Hence - I advocate for rushing the ability to survive an exchange, and thereafter build up the means to pre-empt or win it cleanly. Secure our minimum objective, then run up the score with things like hacking and subverting the bread crumb crowd.
...
Also, Victan should help with the mechanicus subversion/education. Extra layers of safety are nice, even if circumstances say we can't turtle.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
For all those making plans, I'd like to suggest:
-[ ] Diplomacy; ensure Victan integrates into the crew smoothly
While Aevon and it's intelligence agency has been your greatest ally on this planet, there are still many secrets that you keep from them. Your true nature chief among them, but far from the only one. Introducing those secrets will take a delicate hand if you want Victan as a proper crew member. Spend time to talk with him personally, and get a feeling for him as a person, and allow him to do the same to us. Introduce him to Anexa and see how he reacts to us having multiple identities, see if he applies that back to the face he knows. Perhaps, if you show Victan your secrets, he might be willing to keep one for you in return.
Basically, spend an action to make sure Victan reacts well to the whole AI thing and doesn't freak out and tell everyone on us. Plus, it was his sister that offered him as a crew member, rather than him asking himself, and that strikes me as odd.
-[ ] Diplomacy; ensure Victan integrates into the crew smoothly
While Aevon and it's intelligence agency has been your greatest ally on this planet, there are still many secrets that you keep from them. Your true nature chief among them, but far from the only one. Introducing those secrets will take a delicate hand if you want Victan as a proper crew member. Spend time to talk with him personally, and get a feeling for him as a person, and allow him to do the same to us. Introduce him to Anexa and see how he reacts to us having multiple identities, see if he applies that back to the face he knows. Perhaps, if you show Victan your secrets, he might be willing to keep one for you in return.
Basically, spend an action to make sure Victan reacts well to the whole AI thing and doesn't freak out and tell everyone on us. Plus, it was his sister that offered him as a crew member, rather than him asking himself, and that strikes me as odd.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
...She was also, um. Worried about the planet getting wiped out in that call. Does she have a bad feeling about the nuclear risk here that her superiors don't share or something?
We still don't know what Aevon's plans are, but... yeah, that's a good catch.
- Location
- Sydney
I never said I only wanted to build 10 on the surface, don't lie about my posts.
I want to build 20 surface and 1 underground, almost doubling what we have now.
I disagree with your assessment of the risk, Educate is a long term investment (students will slowly learn to question doctrine). The most likely hostilities (if it goes wrong) is they decide to capture/kill Vita next time she visits any of their enclaves. There is a risk of triggering a full scale hunt, but even building a void shield runs the same risk.
EDIT:
And now I want to build 25 Manufactories this turn
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Sorry for calling you in particular out, but I've noticed people in general getting a little bit harsh with each other over the course of the discussion and these were the two examples I could find quickly. None of this is a serious problem yet, but it's something I want to address before it becomes a problem.
Try to give people a little grace, and rein in the snark. It's far more likely that what's going on is a misunderstanding instead of maliciousness. The process of questing is a collaborative effort, and attacking other people will primarily result in less engagement, less collaboration and worse overall outcomes for the story.
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
I saw your post, it only called for 10 on the surface.
...Oh, okay, you have them in two separate actions with other stuff between. Well, alright, but that's because you wrote it in a confusing way, you should have just said. :/