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See my thoughts on my last post on top of this page on trading with the space marines. That would be an excellent selling point, especially if we could implement something similar with all of the stuff we sell to them. Maybe not all of it, but it would be very useful to apply to multiple things they use frequently.
In all fairness, we could get most bang for our buck in setting down a factory on their monastery world. It'd continuously build relationship and good will to them while giving us a lineto influence them.
 
In all fairness, we could get most bang for our buck in setting down a factory on their monastery world. It'd continuously build relationship and good will to them while giving us a lineto influence them.
We're one tech away from being able to put down an installation that just pops out new plasma guns in bulk basically forever, no user serviceable parts inside.

The adMech would schism between wanting to worship it and wanting to tear it apart and delete all record that it was even possible (while keeping their personal samples obviously) .
 
The adMech would schism between wanting to worship it and wanting to tear it apart and delete all record that it was even possible (while keeping their personal samples obviously) .
The AdMech may complain as much as they please as long as His Angels are publically endorsing us.
 
I'd rather be communicating while speaking about trade and more While making sure things aren't about to go nasty on us.
In character we've spoken and been on good terms with the Elder in the past.
I agree with surprising using their language and proper titles/knowledge.
 
We're one tech away from being able to put down an installation that just pops out new plasma guns in bulk basically forever, no user serviceable parts inside.

Tech Marine: What does it run on?
Vita: Rocks.
Tech Marine: What minerals does the holy machine need?
Vita: Just dig up some normal rocks and shove them in the intake shoot until the little green light turns on, it will extract the needed elements on its own.
Tech Marine:...
:V
 
I'm pro-eldar in general, I tend to trust them and their intentions more than imperials and definitely more than the rest of the rogues gallery.
 
Based on this, I think a Foundry ship would be the best investment (assuming we can afford it). After I did this math I started thinking about the comparison between the cargo ships we were talking about, so I decided to compare a foundry against 6,000 BP of cargo. The cargo wins easily for single turn building or if we are setting up a base on a planet. However, there are some situations where it falls short that boil down to time if we want to keep moving. Say we want to build 6,000 BP of something and then continue our travels with the cargo refilled.

Foundry vs 6000 BP Cargo (assumes we have lift capacity already)
BP / Turn (Foundry)Project BPProject BPBP/Turn (Cargo)Notes
1,5001,500Action 106,000Build 60 Ground Factories (3,000 BP/Turn)
1,5003,000Action 23,0003,000All to project
1,5004,500Action 36,0003,000All to project
1,5006,000Action 46,0003,000Fill Cargoship (50%)
1,5007,500Action 56,0003,000Fill Cargoship (100%)

So in this case even though the cargo ship finishes earlier the foundry takes less total actions before we can move on. The cargoship also assumes we have a planet we can use as a manufacturing hub and that we are staying there until the project is done. A factory ship works anywhere and can build on the move.

So I think in the end a balance between cargo and mobile factories will be our best bet.

That's enough off topic for me, back to work

I don't get how this "cargo of build points" works? Is it supposed to be a cargo of prefab building stuff? BP represent industrial capacity, how can cargo represent a finite amount that is exhaustible?

Edit: very interesting regardless, glad people are thinking about expanding the fleet. As an aside, this eldar encounter shows that we could really use some escorts/scouts.
 
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I don't get how this "cargo of build points" works? Is it supposed to be a cargo of prefab building stuff? BP represent industrial capacity, how can cargo represent a finite amount that is exhaustible?
How could it not? You use up the prefab materials and then they're used up.

You can use them to build new manufacturing installations, of course.
 
How could it not? You use up the prefab materials and then they're used up.

You can use them to build new manufacturing installations, of course.

How would you know ahead of time what exact prefab you need? Prefab isn't perfectly exchangeable. Unless it's a colony mission, but even then, assuming there is going to be nothing requiring active manufacturing is optimistic.
As a general solution, cargo doesn't feel like it should work the same way as manufacturing capacity. AFAIK, our manufacturing is blessedly universal, but I'm fairly sure that's more gamification rather than true universality like smart nanite construction or supreme commander style building is.

(As an aside, I've only followed the thread marks so far, if Neablis has weighed in before I have forgotten or missed it)
 
"Correct, you will adjust to the blood of Sanguinius in time." Solloc replied, already moving to the firing range and intoning a rite of amendment to apologise to the rifle's machine spirit, affirming that it was exactly the weight it was supposed to be.

The rifle chirped again. It's choler having not once been provoked by the comment Moro made.
Great, now I'm emotionally invested in a plasma rifle. I want nothing less than the best for these 50 hyper lethal plasma firing puppies.
 
Best I can tell, things are generally on a rough "Tiering" system, it doesn't map 1-1, but it seems to generally fit.

Tier 1 is "Modern Imperium", which is mostly full of scuffed workarounds to handle the lost knowledge that made them work. Ours is better because we have the whole baseline and can deduce whatever we don't know without an action, but nothing we do is beyond the common production ability of the Imperium--we're just a bit more efficient for every given point of material.

Tier 2 is "High Imperium", the stuff that was used in heights of the Great Crusade, and is often found locked up in vaults or in the most ancient and influential Forge Worlds. Volkite Weapons and the Good Automata are mostly found here, along with all kinds of other things.

Tier 3 is "Low Dark Age", where we start getting into the Archaeotech shenanigans that are just beyond modern 'Comprehension', the stuff that even the best forge worlds can only throw up their hands about gleaning the slightest insight from them. Vita was in a society in this level before getting punted back, and she still has the core understandings, so getting back here is 'Merely' difficult, rather than actually fucking impossible like it would be for someone trying to climb the ladder anywhere else. The Space Elfs are here now, which sounds amazing but the reality is that they were on the next level up before the Fall, and the gap here is... Stark.

Tier 4 is "Lore of the Ancients", the kind of nonsense that uses reality as a pretzel in one way or another, it's basically all fucking magic as far as any of us in reality are concerned, even if you can reach this point through sheer material science--as the Necrons did. The late Dark Age was starting to touch on this level (Which is presumably why they were made to collapse by the entrenched powers), and the Dominion and the Necrons were at this point.

And finally, Tier 5 is "Functional Divinity", the level of the Old Ones and the C'Tan, where you not being an omnipotent god is more a polite fiction than any real backing. This is the level the War in Heaven was fought in. It's mostly listed here for bookkeeping purposes, since I doubt we'll ever reach this level--except maybe in one or two fields at the bleeding edge of the story.

Right now, Vita has a comprehensive understanding of Tier 1, and a lot of relatively easy avenues into Tier 2. Tier 3 for here is "Merely' difficult, instead of outright impossible. Tier 4 might as well be fucking magic as far as she's concerned.

That being said, there's one key advantage here. The conditions now are different than the conditions of the past. So Vita's Tier 2 and 3 are unlikely to bear much resemblance to the Dark Age's, simply because she has different samples and different conditions to focus on. It's exciting!
 
Tier 1 is "Modern Imperium", which is mostly full of scuffed workarounds to handle the lost knowledge that made them work. Ours is better because we have the whole baseline and can deduce whatever we don't know without an action, but nothing we do is beyond the common production ability of the Imperium--we're just a bit more efficient for every given point of material.

I mostly agree, but just going off how long it took us to make a Grand Cruiser I think we are at least ten times more efficient.

It might be more exact to say that when Vita herself is engaged with something she acts like Tier2-3 because that is what she (Vita the AI) is. Her core is 'merely' low Dark Age, but stuff like the Reality Simulation and the Fundamental Physics Module as well as her sheer skill as an explorer make up the gap to tier 3 in this analogy. I do not think being able to reverse engineer necron tech was within the grasp of even the Crusade Era Imperium of Man for instance.
 
Best I can tell, things are generally on a rough "Tiering" system, it doesn't map 1-1, but it seems to generally fit.
I mostly agree, but just going off how long it took us to make a Grand Cruiser I think we are at least ten times more efficient.

It might be more exact to say that when Vita herself is engaged with something she acts like Tier2-3 because that is what she (Vita the AI) is. Her core is 'merely' low Dark Age, but stuff like the Reality Simulation and the Fundamental Physics Module as well as her sheer skill as an explorer make up the gap to tier 3 in this analogy. I do not think being able to reverse engineer necron tech was within the grasp of even the Crusade Era Imperium of Man for instance.
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again: Vita's greatest strength in the current time is not in her ability to understand how theoretically something works. Though it is amazingly powerful and shouldn't be dismissed even next to what I do think is her best advantage.

Its the combination of her resource-gathering magic that can turn rock and dirt through what is partly basically alchemy into the common elements she needs (meaning basically anything non-adamantium or other made-up scifi elements)... And the manufacturing-precision magic that lets her to get to the quality needed for her technology base to actually mass-produce technology, instead of trying to handcraft a single plasma gun that doesn't turn its user into ash if handled even a bit carelessly.

And as we can see with some of our currently opened up research projects, it can still be improved greatly.

Meanwhile, almost 100% of the tech-priests are stuck trying to produce the good stuff that some of them do actually understand how to make (even if by rote), like Ryza with plasma guns... But lacking the tools to do in in any other way than what is almost handcrafting a prototype every single time.

Or that is my take on the matter, at least.
 
I would actually suggest Vita doesn't have tier 1 except by reverse engineering. And that's important.

Her fragmentary tier 3 tech base is wildly better than tier 1 and sometimes probably even than tier 2 where it applies. Those really sweet plasma guns IIRC she could build to begin with except they would have lacked machine spirits entirely. But it has gaps, both where she doesn't have full details on her own era's tech (like Intelligence Coding, for pointed example) and where developments came after her day (like machine spirits).
 
Marks of Omission - [Canon]
It is the 42th Millenium. For more than a hundred years, the Cicatrix Maledictum has sat unmoving in the skies of Thrace. It is the Doom of the Imperium by the will of the Gods, and end of humanity by hordes that flow from it. It is a weeping wound writhing eternally with power from deepest of the Warp. It is the great Trial, against which a thousand battlebrothers fight eternal, so that the light might never truly die.

Battlebrother Joseah was a modest sort, a man of eternal conviction and simple, straightforward beliefs. He was not a dull man, or a stupid one, as some would prefer to belief. Among his fellow marines, he was a not mean, or cruel, or vicious. On his days of rest, he would aid the orphans among the chapter serfs, regaling them with tales of his battles and adventures, the eternal war against traitors, rebels, wreckers, saboteurs and heretics, against the foul influence of the Xeno, and the insidious corruption of the mind that was slowly eroding away at Thrace. For it was the Emperor that Joseah truly believed, and so the great rift, which had cut them from his word, had filled him with despair.

And so it came to be that when Marines returned with princely gifts and news of a potential new ally, Joseah looked up on it with suspicion and doubt, not relief. Where the others saw a might price of 50 pristine rifles, Josiah consulted the archives and the Tech Marines, finding none who had ever seen trace of this rifle. Oh, how they cheered and where in awe, to witness such a rare artefact of the dark age of technology. But Josiah worried, for he knew that the Long Night had brought man down, and that without the light of the Emperor, it was impossible see whether wonder or monster was hiding in the shadows.

When the others examined the rifles, they noticed they were not unblemished. These were weapons that had been used and modified, adapted from other purposes. Again, the techmarines rejoiced, for these modifications showed an amenable tech spirit, opening the possibility for the weapons to be mounted of the Chapter's Land Raiders or mounted in fortresses. And again, Joseah worried, for he wondered what use these weapons had been put too. What warriors supported this Vita, to need weapons like this. What weaponry did she possess, that relics as holy as these would go without ointments of protection, allowed to suffer with scratches and scuffmarks?

At last then, the time came in which he was allowed to examine one of the rifles for himself. With concern, he noticed the lack of Imperial Acquila, it's absence worrisome in the extreme. Sure, so his brothers had noted, Vita claimed to predate the Empire, but she had already shown herself willing to adapt the weaponry for other purposes. What madness would cause one to modify the grip, yet neglect to save the soul? What fool would value fingers over eternal damnation? But that was but the least of his worries, for Joseah's eyes had fallen upon another sign. On the stock of each weapon, small engravings had been made. A maker's mark, a tradition as ancient as the Imperium, and clearly some time before.

But these marks were different. They were austere, stripped of all humanity, all acknowledgement of the Emperor, and the mortal hands through which he had wrought his craft. They did not list the forge in which the weapon had been build, the trials and wars which had mandated it's construction. They listed only a number, yet one edged in the metal with impeccable care, each cipher identical to the same cipher upon the other weapons. A tracking number to count the items so produced. A beloathed and lamented tradition, utilized only for the most simple weapons, the equipment least valued yet needed in greatest quantity.

What folly could have possesed her so, what danger could she fear so much, that she would abandon that practice. And if there were danger so feared, why would she give weapons away without a request for protection?
It was then that his analytical mind started to see patterns, for the tracking numbers were not random. They were grouped, ten groups of 5 consecutive numbers each, the weapons clearly made and numbered in sequence. And if such disregard for the machine spirits was tantamount to treason, then the greatest fear came not from the numbers he could see, but the ones he did not. For the first rifles where labelled 40 to 45, and the last were numbered 12995 to 13000.




People are, by and large, writing the Space Marines as being incredibly reasonable about Vita. Therefore, I have provided Joseah Alexandrius to provide a fair and balanced voice to the market place of ideas.

Note : Originally this was going to be a more overt comedy piece, but that wasn't working, so, you know.
 
I would actually suggest Vita doesn't have tier 1 except by reverse engineering. And that's important.

Her fragmentary tier 3 tech base is wildly better than tier 1 and sometimes probably even than tier 2 where it applies. Those really sweet plasma guns IIRC she could build to begin with except they would have lacked machine spirits entirely. But it has gaps, both where she doesn't have full details on her own era's tech (like Intelligence Coding, for pointed example) and where developments came after her day (like machine spirits).
Most importantly we have those two:
-[] Reality-simulations (-4 shinies) You can simulate reality well enough to not need as many experiments. +100% base research capacity, +20 bonus to research rolls, reduced sample requirements. For some options you won't need samples to unlock research.
-[] A Fundamental Physics Module (-1 shiny) You have a deep understanding of the fundamental physics of the universe. Grants significant bonuses to understanding and replicating technology based on different principles than you're familiar with. If you want to reverse-engineer Necron tech, you'll need this. It will also help a lot with understanding & reverse engineering other weird shit you find.
They are both tier 3 tech and allow us to reverse engineer.. pretty much everything.
This is what allows us to reach tier 4 tech. Eventually.
 
I would actually suggest Vita doesn't have tier 1 except by reverse engineering. And that's important.

Her fragmentary tier 3 tech base is wildly better than tier 1 and sometimes probably even than tier 2 where it applies. Those really sweet plasma guns IIRC she could build to begin with except they would have lacked machine spirits entirely. But it has gaps, both where she doesn't have full details on her own era's tech (like Intelligence Coding, for pointed example) and where developments came after her day (like machine spirits).

Machine spirits themselves are a kludge, a stopgap. One's toaster should not behave like a pet hamster, both because it is distracting and because it is ultimately cruel to build something like that into all machines including those with very short and violent lives. But we are a lone AI, that CP bonus is a godsend when we can't just make more of ourselves and while a purely shields based anti-Chaos protection would be better the marginal gains from just having machine spirits is better than nothing.
 
Machine spirits themselves are a kludge, a stopgap. One's toaster should not behave like a pet hamster, both because it is distracting and because it is ultimately cruel to build something like that into all machines including those with very short and violent lives. But we are a lone AI, that CP bonus is a godsend when we can't just make more of ourselves and while a purely shields based anti-Chaos protection would be better the marginal gains from just having machine spirits is better than nothing.
400 RP to have both :p
 
Machine spirits themselves are a kludge, a stopgap. One's toaster should not behave like a pet hamster, both because it is distracting and because it is ultimately cruel to build something like that into all machines including those with very short and violent lives. But we are a lone AI, that CP bonus is a godsend when we can't just make more of ourselves and while a purely shields based anti-Chaos protection would be better the marginal gains from just having machine spirits is better than nothing.

I'm not convinced that pure shields are better - sooner or later, someone is going to show up with a way to bypass them. And machine spirits give us avenues for increasing the effectiveness of the things we put them in, as well. Biological life has something every similar built into it on every level, that's how biology does a lot of the amazing things it does:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUto7zvCXqc&list=PL6SlweOjqYXzKV6C63v17Y_hm8EXKW7wv&index=1

Edit: You might want to jump to 17:30 to see the specific point I'm after, the video is a little long, sorry. XD
 
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How would you know ahead of time what exact prefab you need? Prefab isn't perfectly exchangeable. Unless it's a colony mission, but even then, assuming there is going to be nothing requiring active manufacturing is optimistic.
As a general solution, cargo doesn't feel like it should work the same way as manufacturing capacity. AFAIK, our manufacturing is blessedly universal, but I'm fairly sure that's more gamification rather than true universality like smart nanite construction or supreme commander style building is.

(As an aside, I've only followed the thread marks so far, if Neablis has weighed in before I have forgotten or missed it)
Mainly the miracle of abstraction, I think. Realistically you probably at least need some amount of assembly capacity per volume cargo feed supplies but unless we're using it in an upsetting way that isn't necessarily worth hashing out.
 
I wonder, could we make an automated factory whose main purpose is making more factories? Drop that off in a system with some defenses (maybe have it produce/maintain a certain number of defensive ships/installations) And then come back to a fully automated forgeworld in a few centuries.
 
I wonder, could we make an automated factory whose main purpose is making more factories? Drop that off in a system with some defenses (maybe have it produce/maintain a certain number of defensive ships/installations) And then come back to a fully automated forgeworld in a few centuries.

Not with that first tech. It explicitly says no installations. But with one of the more advanced techs, or a few of the more advanced techs, yeah, I think so.
 
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