I think I said it above - you'd need 4 to keep shooting them down as they came over the horizon, though equal chances they'd be able to get a shot off at you before you nailed them. Then you'd need 10 to be able to alpha-strike every satellite at once. Each lance can only fire every 10ish min, so building 5 would mean that the 5 remaining would have 10 min to unload on you.


Oh, so with a void shield, it seems like a single lance would lower the killsat load to about 7.5? So, in theory a void shield and a single defense lance could carry us through. The addition of hacking, stealth fighters, and maybe jamming should put us quite thoroughly in the green. We'll still probably want to hold off another turn or two to try and arrange for a solution that doesn't risk collateral damage, but best to prepare for the worst.
 
[ ] Plan Prepping the fall V1.5

-[ ] Research X2 (200+200=400 RP)
--[ ] Improved Passive Stealth (100 RP)
--[ ] Machine spirit jamming (150 RP)
--[ ] Advanced Stealth Fighters (100 RP)
--[ ] Basic space stealth missile (50 RP, 5 BP, 1 CP)

-[ ] ConstructionX2 (1300+1300=2600 BP)
--[ ] Medium Void-shield Installation, concealed (2000 BP, 50 CP)
--[ ] Advanced stealth fightersX? (600 BP, ?? CP)

Anexa Ifina, Tech-priest Errant.
Level 3
-[] Anexa passive action: Education - Roll to level, difficulty is 10+5xLevel

Mecanicus acolytes
-[] Educate: Riskier than Promote but this will make them more loyal to us.

Anexa about Chaos
-[ ] We tell her how dangerous Chaos is, really emphasize the danger of studying it. Heck, even just talking about is setting the shielding off. That knowledge was locked away with several hard encryptions to ensure we didn't become corrupted and even then, we still have several alarms set in case anything happens. That was why the Men of Iron attacked humanity, they had no emotions and were obsessed with studying what is effectively magic. This gave Chaos unfettered access to intelligent beings with no protection. We are working on ways to lock that information away and give Anexa her own protection but for now, We'll have to recommend meditation or other, distracting things to keep her mind occupied until it's ready.

Victan
-[ ] Yes: We bring him on board and take it slow with him over the five years, encouraging a friendship with Anexa before eventually revealing ourselves. If he doesn't want to stay with us after this, he is welcome to leave but we ask he keep what he found secret. We want to explore the stars and avoid conflict if possible.

Redid my plan with the advanced Stealth fighters in mind and to have a safety net in case of a poor success. I wanted to use the first construction action for just manufactories but we'd be 50 short of completing it.

EDIT: I've replaced the basics of Psytech sacrifice with the stealth missile. If we can get those into orbit and the advance fighters, we might be able to wipe out all the satellites before too much damage is done. We might get a poor success but odd are low we'll get a poor on all the options.
 
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I think we should maximize manufacturies before starting to mass produce fighters and missiles. If we do that (and risk it a little with the "Educate" option) we may be able to strike the mechanicus in 2 turns and have BP in abundance to build the best ship we can get.
 
How do concealed facilities play into that?
It doesn't. If a concealed facility is discovered then they know you're hiding something and will pay closer attention. The risk is pretty low now, but will go up the more concealed facilities you build. 50 aboveground structures is when they'll start going "hey what is that it's larger than it should be.

Because advanced missiles feels redundant honestly, if we're firing the missiles, chances are we've already gone loud, and a little extra passive stealth is redundant. Fire and forget weapons don't need to be super stealthy.
Counterpoint - these aren't fast to launch to orbit and advanced stealth will help you stockpile them in orbit and make the final attack roles more permissive. Only needed a 1.5:1 safety margin instead of 2:1, for instance.

Basic stealth will work just fine for the purpose you intend, but the risk is somewhat higher and you'll need to build more missles. Tradeoffs, as as with all things. Reiterating, basic stealth is mostly only useful for setting up an ambush, advanced stealth is useful in an actual combat environment.

Oh, so with a void shield, it seems like a single lance would lower the killsat load to about 7.5? So, in theory a void shield and a single defense lance could carry us through. The addition of hacking, stealth fighters, and maybe jamming should put us quite thoroughly in the green. We'll still probably want to hold off another turn or two to try and arrange for a solution that doesn't risk collateral damage, but best to prepare for the worst.
I'm not sure where you're getting this. One lance blows up one satellite in view every ten minutes, assuming perfect targeting that will be generally but not always true. If there are 10 satellites overhead at any given time, each with 6 shots, then you'd need 2 lances to be able to survive them unloading everything on you with a medium shield. But then more satellites would come over the horizon and unload faster than even two lances could shoot them down. Your void shield does recharge, but you'd only have about a 20-30% chance of surviving if all you had was 2 lances and a medium void shield. The chances go up pretty dramatically with every additional lance, with near 100% survival at like 6 or so, and at 12 or so they'd need to get lucky to land a single hit on you.

But yeah, that doesn't do anything to protect the rest of the planet.
 
Hrm, fair enough. How much would the advanced stealth missiles cost to both design and build?
I edited it into a previous post, which was probably not the best place for that info.
Edit: If you research advanced stealth then you'll be able to build advanced stealth missiles too. Same cost increase as for shuttles - 75/100 RP depending on if you've researched basic stealth missiles already. They'll probably cost 10 BP 1 CP apiece, but be much harder to spot and more likely to hit their targets.
 
I edited it into a previous post, which was probably not the best place for that info.

Alright, I'll adjust, thank you.

EDIT:

[ ] Plan: Soon Things Will Get Noisy
-[ ] Subversion: You need more intel, and you need some tools that can help buy you time when it all hits the fan. Fortunately, if you're lucky, you can potentially do both due to them not knowing you're here. The simple fact of the matter is that if just about anyone could trigger the apocalypse, eventually it would have likely happened by now. This likely suggests some kind of centralized authorization credential that needs to be declared in order to trigger the start of things, which will likely have to involve relays if it's going to send a signal around the entire planet. If we can find and infiltrate those relays, we can likely shut off any command signal long enough to Do Something About It, before the Mechanicus can figure out any overrides they might have. That we might also manage to get a chance to listen in on the communications between the void base and here is just a bonus. (Attempt to identify and subvert whatever communication channel is used to transmit the activation signal for the killsats. If we can also get eyes and ears in the mail going back and forth from the space installation to the ground, that's just a bonus. A Man-in-the-Middle attack is likely a lost art by now after all, and our skills at this point should be at the level where this is no longer a forlorn hope.)
-[ ] Construction (1,300 BP)
--[ ] Up to 10x Advanced Stealth Shuttles (-300-500 BP, ??? CP)
--[ ] 50x Advanced Space Stealth Missiles (-500 BP)
---[ ] Place the missiles in orbit where they can work at taking out the killsats on our command
--[ ] Remaining BP on Manufactories
-[ ] Research x2 (400 RP)
--[ ] Improved Passive Stealth (-100 RP)
--[ ] Advanced Stealth Fighters (-100 RP)
--[ ] Advanced Stealth Shuttles (-100 RP)
--[ ] Advanced Space Stealth Missile (-100 RP)
-[][ANEXA] Education - Roll to level, difficulty is 10+5xLevel
-[][ACOLYTE] Educate
-[][KAYOS] Now
--[ ] Right, the cognitohazard we were looking into--apparently something changed between the time when I got stuck in a space rock and now, because there is now a potent, Warp derived force that seems to delight in driving things to the ground for some reason. While it's not responsible for everything that's ever gone wrong, the study was quite informative about how the existence of such forces could be particularly effective against synthetic intelligences that aren't properly shielded or experienced enough to discard bad data that looks too good to be true. If I'm speaking in generalities here instead of getting down to brass tacks, it's because I have confirmed that thinking too hard about the details can, in fact, invite probes from the immaterial end. My shielding's been sufficient to deflect those probes and that was with me taking extensive measures to minimize how much thinking about the topic I've actually been doing, but I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to be patient about the fine details beyond that until I've figured out how to shrink those shields down to a level people can wear. Especially since there's a lot of other projects right now that are a bit more pressing.
-[][VICTAN] Yes
--[ ] You've been a bit antsy about the topic, but you've been working together for a while now, and W is right in how you need to coordinate properly on the matter. Victan having a ticket off world should the worst happen is not a problem whatsoever, and is unconditional, but... Okay, fine! You'll trust them! Give the option of coming to meet you at your ship, with the understanding that while your secrets aren't really bad, they are... Awkward to deal with, you'd like to hope you've built up enough cachet by now that they'll be willing to hear you out and understand why you play these cards close to your chest. Victan especially, but W's entitled to know as well if she wants to, with the understanding that you would very much prefer that she keeps this under her hat for a while. Our caution on this topic boils down to the fact that--as far as we know--we're the last living being who remembers what Humanity was back in the glory days, where there was freedom to command our own fate, and none of this hiding or nonsense. I believe in you all--especially since you've started sharing what I gave to you with the other nations here. That's the echo of what humans were that I love so much, and hope to see happen again. Hand in hand, against the black, pushing it away bit by bit. (It's a bit flowery, but basically, they've got the option of accepting a Full Disclosure, with the understanding that it's somewhat awkward to deal with rather than bad or anything. Whether they take the option or not is up to them, but choice is important.)
 
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I'm going to make another push for subversion for our admech acolytes rather than education- we seen to be planning on going loud sooner rather than later, minimizing the issues of greater risk, and the payoff of having loyal people is much higher with subversion.
 
I'm going to make another push for subversion for our admech acolytes rather than education- we seen to be planning on going loud sooner rather than later, minimizing the issues of greater risk, and the payoff of having loyal people is much higher with subversion.
Not like we can´t do education now and subversion later. But fair.
Let's keep up the explorator puzzles. Let them piece it together themselves if we go that path. It's more or less our signature at this point.
 
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I'm not sure where you're getting this. One lance blows up one satellite in view every ten minutes, assuming perfect targeting that will be generally but not always true. If there are 10 satellites overhead at any given time, each with 6 shots, then you'd need 2 lances to be able to survive them unloading everything on you with a medium shield. But then more satellites would come over the horizon and unload faster than even two lances could shoot them down. Your void shield does recharge, but you'd only have about a 20-30% chance of surviving if all you had was 2 lances and a medium void shield. The chances go up pretty dramatically with every additional lance, with near 100% survival at like 6 or so, and at 12 or so they'd need to get lucky to land a single hit on you.

But yeah, that doesn't do anything to protect the rest of the planet.

Right, okay, that makes sense. So, one lance + void shield means we'd need to lean real hard on our stealth fighters, 2 lances + shield means we'd still be leaning on the fighters but not quite so much, and at 3 lances up we only need to lean on the fighters a little bit. And if we stockpile missiles for an alpha strike, then all of that gets that much easier. That about right?
 
-[ ] Construction (1,300 BP)
--[ ] Up to 10x Advanced Stealth Shuttles (-300-500 BP, ??? CP)
--[ ] All remaining BP on Advanced Space Stealth Missiles (to counter the killsats)
If I have it right then with 10 shuttles we can only send up 500 BP worth of stuff per construction action, which means I think you'd be better off building the 10 shuttles, building and sending up 50 missiles, then spending the rest on manufactories?
 
--[ ] All remaining BP on Advanced Space Stealth Missiles (to counter the killsats)
Right, okay, that makes sense. So, one lance + void shield means we'd need to lean real hard on our stealth fighters, 2 lances + shield means we'd still be leaning on the fighters but not quite so much, and at 3 lances up we only need to lean on the fighters a little bit. And if we stockpile missiles for an alpha strike, then all of that gets that much easier. That about right?
Space Stealth Missiles don't use Void BP, we just have to have shuttles to move them up, I think it's fine?
About that, I'd like you to be explicit with where the missiles end up. Each shuttle can transfer 50 bp from ground to space per turn (yes that's only 5 missiles, you need to wait for good launch windows or something or you need to detach them really slowly to stay stealthy, whatever).

Theoretically I'd like to keep it simpler and have you transfer all of your missiles to space as you build them, but I'll allow you to leave them on the ground. So for Alectai's plan do you want to end up with 50 advanced stealth missiles in space and then another 30-50 on the ground, ready to carry up next turn? They don't do anything on the ground, they're built for space.
 
.... Alright, nevermind, I'll adjust.

EDIT: Done, we build 50 of those space stealth missiles and put them in position if we need them.
 
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With the QM explicitedly saying that we can build up to 50 factories without arousing major suspicion, it baffles me why people are chosing not to do that? Are you really planning to open fire next turn?
Because if no, built the factories first.

EDIT: Done, we build 50 of those space stealth missiles and put them in position if we need them.
This is the worst of both worlds. It's enough of them to risk detection, but not enough to actually let us survive if we're detected.
 
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With the QM explicitedly saying that we can build up to 50 factories without arousing major suspicion, it baffles me why people are chosing not to do that? Are you really planning to open fire next turn?
Because if no, built the factories first.

We need to be ready to open fire next turn, if worst comes to worst. Doesn't matter how many factories we have if they get destroyed.
 
With the QM explicitedly saying that we can build up to 50 factories without arousing major suspicion, it baffles me why people are chosing not to do that? Are you really planning to open fire next turn?
Because if no, built the factories first.


This is the worst of both worlds. It's enough of them to risk detection, but not enough to actually let us survive if we're detected.

Please explain how they're going to detect Advanced Stealth Missiles that haven't fired yet. Just omnipotent space magic?
 
We need to be ready to open fire next turn, if worst comes to worst. Doesn't matter how many factories we have if they get destroyed.
At 50 missiles, we're just signing our own death warrant. Because that's not enough to meaningfully alter the calculus if they decide to fire them, while offering another point for them to be detected.

Please explain how they're going to detect Advanced Stealth Missiles that haven't fired yet. Just omnipotent space magic?
The QM mentioned before that stealth is not a guarantee. It's a roll.

A roll biased in our favor, but a roll nonetheless.
 
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Please explain how they're going to detect Advanced Stealth Missiles that haven't fired yet. Just omnipotent space magic?

They're stealthy, but not perfectly so. I would give it only a 5% chance of detection... But that's still more than I'm super comfortable with. And given that that'd only be a third of what we need, and we'd have no other defenses against killsats, that seems pretty dangerous.
 
Advanced Stealth and passive missiles is somehow something that has a realistic chance of being detected?

That's a fairly extreme claim, @Neablis , could you confirm?
 
At 50 missiles, we're just signing our own death warrant. Because

No, I agree! My plan calls for void shield, defense lance, and a bunch of stealth fighters. Which would still make for a pretty desperate fight, but one that should at least theoretically be doable, worst comes to worst.

Edit: Reposting:

[ ] Plan Draft: Hoping for the Best, Preparing for the Worst.

-[ ] Research X2 (200+200=400 RP)
--[ ] Improved Passive Stealth (100 RP)
--[ ] Improved Stealth Fighters (100 RP)
--[ ] Machine spirit jamming (150 RP)
--[ ] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (Whatever's left over after we research everything else. Can sacrifice research to boost other things if necessary.)

-[ ] Construction Act 1 (1300 BP)
--[ ] Manufactory X4 (400 BP, 200 CP)
--[ ] Anti-Orbital Defenses, concealed (200 BP, 5 CP)
--[ ] Medium Void-shield Installation, concealed (700/2000 BP)

-[ ] Construction Act 2 (1500 BP)
--[ ] Medium Void-shield Installation, concealed (700 +1300/2000 BP, 50 CP)
--[ ] Improved Stealth Fighter X ?? (200 BP, ?? CP)

-[] Anexa passive action: Education - Roll to level, difficulty is 10+5xLevel

-[] Promote acolytes

-[ ] Anexa Explanation: We tell her how dangerous Chaos is, but also that we have countermeasures that seem to be sufficient for now. We think we understand how the men of iron were subverted and are confident that we can avoid the same fate - but, never the less, we urge caution on this matter, and would like to keep her inside our shielding as much as possible and urge her to avoid the subject until we have better countermeasures.

-[ ] Victan Yes: We bring him on board and tell him his job is to help us coordinate with the Aevon government and deceive the mechanicus, and not to pry into our secrets. If he does well at this, we can consider recruiting him to our crew more permanently.
 
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We need to be ready to open fire next turn, if worst comes to worst. Doesn't matter how many factories we have if they get destroyed.

Pretty much, passive discovery of the factories is not the concern here. We have what's basically a cult inside the ad mech and every plan is trying to do something with them, Aevon and moving and so are some of the other nations. Sure we do not have a political obligation to keep them from getting nuked, but it's hard to imagine Vita not interfering if it comes to that.
 
Advanced Stealth and passive missiles is somehow something that has a realistic chance of being detected?

That's a fairly extreme claim, @Neablis , could you confirm?
I mean, that's what they said to you, just a handful of posts ago.

Counterpoint - these aren't fast to launch to orbit and advanced stealth will help you stockpile them in orbit and make the final attack roles more permissive. Only needed a 1.5:1 safety margin instead of 2:1, for instance.

Basic stealth will work just fine for the purpose you intend, but the risk somewhat higher and is you'll need to build more missles. Tradeoffs, as as with all things. Reiterating, basic stealth is mostly only useful for setting up an ambush, advanced stealth is useful in an actual combat environment.
The risk of detection for using basic stealth is "somewhat higher". This directly implies that the risk for advanced stealth is merely "somewhat lower". Not non-existent.
Given that we explicitedly got warned that prepositioning missiles requires a roll, that seems to suggest to me that there is indeed still a risk.
 
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