The best we can hope for from an inconclusive war, or a defensively measured war even if we win conclusively, is the status quo. There's no such thing as a war where we decisively shatter the Cardassians militarily but yet we don't conquer them. It's impossible to practicably do so, as far as I am concerned.

That's why I am advocating against the idea that a war will solve our issues with the Cardassians. It won't, and people who are advocating it are wrong to do so.

Shattering enough of their fleet fighting defensively is possible, given how lethal a battle can be (see the most recent fleet battle in the GBZ). Moreover, the point of shattering their fleet is that the Cardassians do not exist in a vacuum. They hold onto power via having a strong and powerful military. Weakening them sufficiently means they cannot hold onto their means of production (conquered races, GBZ mines, etc) and it opens them up to others who are less principled than the Federation. Beat them badly enough on the defense, and they can either continue to fight us and potentially lose enough force that their empire disintegrates under the strain, or sue for a peace whose terms we will set.
 
Shattering enough of their fleet fighting defensively is possible, given how lethal a battle can be (see the most recent fleet battle in the GBZ). Moreover, the point of shattering their fleet is that the Cardassians do not exist in a vacuum. They hold onto power via having a strong and powerful military. Weakening them sufficiently means they cannot hold onto their means of production (conquered races, GBZ mines, etc) and it opens them up to others who are less principled than the Federation. Beat them badly enough on the defense, and they can either continue to fight us and potentially lose enough force that their empire disintegrates under the strain, or sue for a peace whose terms we will set.
Why? What reason do they have to sue for peace on our terms? They can just go back to "peace" at the status quo ante bellum.
 
I think in a few years, we may want to find a good Kad Peddath diplomat to talk to Cardassia for us. I think their serious temperament would go over well discussion of long term stability without triggering undo paranoia (like a psychic Vulcan or Betazoid might).
 
I actually kind of wonder if our lack of contact with the Ittick-ka is in large part to the Hishmeri rolling through.

Like the Ittick-Ka tried their king shit of hill mountain routine and the Hishmeri went "TASTY BUGS. OM NOM NOM" and beat them until all their money fell out somehow.

I'd actually be interested if the far rim was a sort of Fall of the Orion Empire in minature with the Hishmeri twacking the bugs until the opressed subject races decides that it was a good time to get theirs back.

I like the idea of this small sector sized area of space boiling over with intrigue, war, science and politics between species who even the Lamarck are probably going to outstrip in a decade or two.
 
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I actually kind of wonder if our lack of contact with the Ittick-ka is in large part to the Hishmeri rolling through.

Like the Ittick-Ka tried their king shit of hill mountain routine and the Hishmeri went "TASTY BUGS. OM NOM NOM" and beat them until all their money fell out somehow.

I'd actually be interested if the far rim was a sort of Fall of the Orion Empire in minature with the Hishmeri twacking the bugs until the opressed subject races decides that it was a good time to get theirs back.

I like the idea of this small sector sized area of space boiling over with intrigue, war, science and politics between species who even the Lamarck are probably going to outstrip in a decade or two.

Certainly possible, but it's not like we heard much from the Ittick-ka before the Septs arrived either. Though I suspect the Ittick-ka are exactly what the Septs look for in raiding targets. Advanced enough to have lootable tech, but primitive enough to not put up much of a fight.
 
True.

Now, regarding your suggestion of a Cardassian neutral zone, how many players do you expect to liken that to the Demilitarized Zone from the shows?

The obvious problem with the Demilitarized Zone was that it contained civilians of both sides.

If we establish it much earlier, forbid all traffic instead of just military traffic, and ensured that it was shaped so it lacked civilian settlements, it would work well enough for our purposes.
 
I find it really dark how there is no talk about doing the same to the Klingons and Romulans (and indeed, plenty of talk supporting further befriending of these powers) even though both Klingons and Romulans are in their own way as bad as the Cardassians - and just as opposed to the values of the Federation (to the point that part of the reason they are fighting each-other is to enable the winner to better resist the Federation). Why are the Cardassians somehow less deserving of peace, security and planets without glass surfaces than these powers who have actually fought to destroy the Federation and killed Federation citizens by the billions? The Cardassians (so far) have been far better neighbours.

I think this doesn't quite address the situation as the Federation sees it. Yes, there were horrible, horrible fights against the Klingons and Romulans. Yes, the Cardassians have not hurt us nearly as much. And yes, the Klingons and Romulans both have parts of their society that we really are opposed to.

But unlike the Cardassians, we have opened lines of friendship and communication with them. It is still very much a work in progress, but there is an exchange of ideas and understanding between us and the Klingons and the Romulans. Befriending these powers is, in fact, the Federation strategy. Why? Because it saves lives and, to take the cynical view, it applies social pressure. We're shoving data about our altruistic utopian paradise society with its (insert appropriate virtues here) ways into their hands and, well, that means they are having to come to terms with the fact that the Federation exists and works really quite well. And that does matter. I don't know if the Remans, for example, know how the Federation works yet, but I guarantee that they will, and that will probably someday turn into yet another crisis for Oneiros to shove on our plates, but it will be opportunity as well as danger.

Becoming friends with them is our super not-secret social manipulation strategy.

Why are we treating the Cardassians so differently then?

Because the Cardassians have caught on to our super not-secret social manipulation strategy. And it TERRIFIES them. They're worried about Starfleet, but the Obsidian Order has night terrors about black-ops FDS agents getting one of our diplomancer gods an unedited interview on the Cardassian Daily News and slipping it past the censors. Cardassian society is a house of cards, and while perhaps the center might hold (for a time), the outskirts are all too easily torn away. They demanded we stop talking to their minion species in the Treaty of Celos because that's all it takes for the Federation Memetic Hazard to wreak havoc.

It's not like the Klingons and Romulans, where we had to get them to acknowledge our strengths and virtues to pry open a dialogue. The Cardassians know those things, and that's why they are refusing to open a dialogue. All of this discussion is about how we can disrupt their belief in this strategy enough to initiate plan Friendship.
 
Why? What reason do they have to sue for peace on our terms? They can just go back to "peace" at the status quo ante bellum.

Then we lock them out of the GBZ and have no reason to abide by Celos, meaning that we've not only severely hamstrung their resource gathering, but we have no reason not to apply massive diplomatic effort to their affiliates and do things like, say, threaten to liberate the Konen or Bajorans. It's still a strategic loss, particularly since such a loss let's us increase our production of starships, while reducing their ability to build a fleet and expand to combat us.
 
Why are we treating the Cardassians so differently then?

Because the Cardassians have caught on to our super not-secret social manipulation strategy. And it TERRIFIES them. They're worried about Starfleet, but the Obsidian Order has night terrors about black-ops FDS agents getting one of our diplomancer gods an unedited interview on the Cardassian Daily News and slipping it past the censors. Cardassian society is a house of cards, and while perhaps the center might hold (for a time), the outskirts are all too easily torn away. They demanded we stop talking to their minion species in the Treaty of Celos because that's all it takes for the Federation Memetic Hazard to wreak havoc.

It's not like the Klingons and Romulans, where we had to get them to acknowledge our strengths and virtues to pry open a dialogue. The Cardassians know those things, and that's why they are refusing to open a dialogue. All of this discussion is about how we can disrupt their belief in this strategy enough to initiate plan Friendship.

I don't think the Cardassians are all that different.

For the longest time, the Klingons skirmished with the weaklings of the Federation. Literal over a hundred years a Klingon ship was a raider and an immediate threat to every Starfleet ship. Literal over a hundred years the Romulans so hated Federation culture that they hid their entire civilization away behind a forbidden neutral zone. The quest is set in a unique time when both polities are finally agreeing that the Federation isn't so bad (something that didn't happen in "canon" for the Romulans yet another almost 100 years).

The method we can get the Cardassians to open will be different to the Klingons or Romulans, but there will be a way. It just won't happen quickly. It may require a bit of self-deception on their part, true, but that is no different than the Klingons acknowledging that some humans are warriors, just as an example. Take the Cardassians subordinating themselves to the Dominion; that required some significant self-deception about the relative strengths, as my understanding is that the Cardassians saw it as a partnership while it's patently obvious that the Dominion is the dominant party.

It's true that cooperation against a greater enemy could be the number one thing that would easily win us over Cardassia, but I don't see that as likely to occur. It's also true that shattering them in a war would fundamentally alter the nature of the relationship, but I don't believe that is possible.

What I do think is possible is de-escalating the border to the point where the Cardassians would have an easier time going to play their dominance games against someone else, like the Ferengi or the ISC. That may well involve fighting a war to get a de-escalation (read: neutral zone) in the settlement, but doesn't require that we shatter the Cardassian state in the process.
 
The obvious problem with the Demilitarized Zone was that it contained civilians of both sides.

If we establish it much earlier, forbid all traffic instead of just military traffic, and ensured that it was shaped so it lacked civilian settlements, it would work well enough for our purposes.
The question I must ask is why? Why limit ourselves and leave Cardassia in a bubble where they believe ourselves to be weak? Why is it a binary choice between leaving things as a status quo and complete conquest of Cardassia? Why can we not have ourselves become the dominant faction over them?
 
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The question I must ask is why? Why limit ourselves and leave Cardassia in a bubble where they believe ourselves to be weak? Why is it a binary choice between leaving things as a status quo and complete conquest of Cardassia? Why can we not have ourselves become the dominant faction over them?
As the Federation, we are fundamentally incapable of dominating the affairs of another polity through use of force. What you refer to as the dominant faction is what I refer to as conquest. It is impossible for us to do this as the Federation.

I've already explained the full reasons at great length. Please refer to my previous posts and also Oneiros's post on the subject.
 
I'd say the biggest is a willingness to make sacrifices. Painful ones, when necessary.
It's a bit obvious, of course. (Having a major work of literature be named The Never Ending Sacrifice is a good clue.) But the Union made sacrifice, a necessity to maintain the regime, into a virtue.

So perhaps mutual defense against some larger foe?
 
I don't think the Cardassians are all that different.

For the longest time, the Klingons skirmished with the weaklings of the Federation. Literal over a hundred years a Klingon ship was a raider and an immediate threat to every Starfleet ship. Literal over a hundred years the Romulans so hated Federation culture that they hid their entire civilization away behind a forbidden neutral zone. The quest is set in a unique time when both polities are finally agreeing that the Federation isn't so bad (something that didn't happen in "canon" for the Romulans yet another almost 100 years).

The method we can get the Cardassians to open will be different to the Klingons or Romulans, but there will be a way. It just won't happen quickly. It may require a bit of self-deception on their part, true, but that is no different than the Klingons acknowledging that some humans are warriors, just as an example. Take the Cardassians subordinating themselves to the Dominion; that required some significant self-deception about the relative strengths, as my understanding is that the Cardassians saw it as a partnership while it's patently obvious that the Dominion is the dominant party.

It's true that cooperation against a greater enemy could be the number one thing that would easily win us over Cardassia, but I don't see that as likely to occur. It's also true that shattering them in a war would fundamentally alter the nature of the relationship, but I don't believe that is possible.

What I do think is possible is de-escalating the border to the point where the Cardassians would have an easier time going to play their dominance games against someone else, like the Ferengi or the ISC. That may well involve fighting a war to get a de-escalation (read: neutral zone) in the settlement, but doesn't require that we shatter the Cardassian state in the process.


This is basically what I'm hoping for but phrased way better than I ever could.
 
The Cardassian problem will be resolved with time.

My personal pet project would be getting the Dawair out from their thumb, except there's a Treaty of Celos in place that prohibits us from doing that. Although being an exclave in the Federation might change that.
 
As the Federation, we are fundamentally incapable of dominating the affairs of another polity through use of force. What you refer to as the dominant faction is what I refer to as conquest. It is impossible for us to do this as the Federation.

I've already explained the full reasons at great length. Please refer to my previous posts and also Oneiros's post on the subject.

The use of pure hard power is not the only weapon in our arsenal like you're insinuating any use of violence is. Destroying the Cardassian fleet reserves (that is, the fleet that they can afford to pull from Garrison during wartime) sharply reduces their ability to project force and contest decisions. Sure, we won't invade them. But without a fleet, we can say "the GBZ belongs to us" and there is no contest. We can say "we think the Konen and Bajorans deserve self determination" and good luck for them to try to contest that. Or "the Federation will be setting up embassies in the capitals of all your affiliates." All of the above are things the Cardassians would not want to happen. And with the lack of a fleet to prevent them, the simple threat of such actions carries a great deal of weight. We can force them to acknowledge our dominance through actions which are not offensives against their homelands, and are in line with Federation core values.
 
Then we lock them out of the GBZ and have no reason to abide by Celos, meaning that we've not only severely hamstrung their resource gathering, but we have no reason not to apply massive diplomatic effort to their affiliates and do things like, say, threaten to liberate the Konen or Bajorans. It's still a strategic loss, particularly since such a loss let's us increase our production of starships, while reducing their ability to build a fleet and expand to combat us.
It's not a resolution. They'll accept such a loss to continue fighting against us. To do otherwise would be to admit a defeat that they cannot admit. The degree of threat needed to force the Cardassians to accept a disadvantageous peace is no less than the threat of annihilation of their state, as that's the position they'd need to be in where they would lose more in continuing to fight than making a highly disadvantageous peace.

Basically, your proposal would cause a war. Even if our position is relatively stronger. Our position is far stronger than theirs now and we could still cause a war with the right actions. We almost did over the Sydraxians just last turn.

e: Same essential response to what you say above. You are fundamentally misreading Cardassian values and goals.
 
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I'm uncertain - Do we have trade with Cardassia or any of their affiliates? Is trade with them forbidden under the Treaty of Celos?
 
Why? What reason do they have to sue for peace on our terms? They can just go back to "peace" at the status quo ante bellum.

Ultimately, we need to be able to encourage the Cardassians to accept the idea that peace on our terms is better for them than the alternative.

Your idea of a neutral zone might be something that would reasonably appeal to them. We'll have to become more familiar with their goals, their red lines and their psychology.

Because the Cardassians have caught on to our super not-secret social manipulation strategy. And it TERRIFIES them. They're worried about Starfleet, but the Obsidian Order has night terrors about black-ops FDS agents getting one of our diplomancer gods an unedited interview on the Cardassian Daily News and slipping it past the censors. Cardassian society is a house of cards, and while perhaps the center might hold (for a time), the outskirts are all too easily torn away. They demanded we stop talking to their minion species in the Treaty of Celos because that's all it takes for the Federation Memetic Hazard to wreak havoc.

You know, I remember most of the Cardassians from the show as being pretty patriotic. I doubt their system would crumble so easily - though I guess the omakes in this quest tend to portray them as having that fear.

All of this discussion is about how we can disrupt their belief in this strategy enough to initiate plan Friendship.

I think part of why the Federation is so good at deploying Plan Friendship is because the Federation genuinely offers friendship. Which means a mutually beneficial relationship.

As the Federation, we are fundamentally incapable of dominating the affairs of another polity through use of force. What you refer to as the dominant faction is what I refer to as conquest. It is impossible for us to do this as the Federation.

I've already explained the full reasons at great length. Please refer to my previous posts and also Oneiros's post on the subject.

After WW2, the US forced Britain to recognize it as the dominant polity. This did not involve military force being applied to Britain by the US or conquest.

You're assuming that Cardassians see dominance only in military terms, and cannot be dominated through non-military means, as the US applied to Britain.

The degree of threat needed to force the Cardassians to accept a disadvantageous peace is no less than the threat of annihilation of their state

How do you know this?

fasquardon
 
After WW2, the US forced Britain to recognize it as the dominant polity. This did not involve military force being applied to Britain by the US or conquest.

You're assuming that Cardassians see dominance only in military terms, and cannot be dominated through non-military means, as the US applied to Britain.

I am completely open to ideas here.

For example, if we could get a trade deal it would be an incredible move towards a long-lasting peace. But I don't believe that's viable from our current starting point.


How do you know this?

From studying all available materials on the Cardassians as they've been presented in-quest.

The Cardassian state is built on the idea of Cardassian superiority, both individually and collectively. A significantly disadvantageous peace would be the end of the Cardassian state as the state itself would be a demonstrated failure to its own goals. Infighting would immediately tear it apart. Refer also to the state of affairs after a relatively inexpensive failure in Ghosts and Whispers. That's a mere preview of what would happen after a white peace in a war. The Cardassian state is not a resilient entity to massive failure specifically.

Therefore, it's easy to say that the Cardassians cannot accept a disadvantageous peace unless the consequences of not accepting are the same as the consequences of accepting. If putting it in a sentence doesn't work, then map it as game theory.
 
Personally, continue skirmishing in the GBZ and establish our position there along with our member worlds. We will not start a war with them but we will fight one if they force it. Hopefully though we can get it through before that we prefer peace and negotiation but that we are not a weak party that they can dominate. By DS9 time they had already gone through a war with the Federation which left no doubts that the Federation would defend itself and had the ability to do so.
 
I'm uncertain - Do we have trade with Cardassia or any of their affiliates? Is trade with them forbidden under the Treaty of Celos?
Not threadmarked, but:
Seyek Logistics Network
(Income 90/60)
Hubs - Rethelia (30/20), Hassonus (10/5), Fiiral (5/5), Hacitorus (5/5) = 50/35 (40/25 remaining)
Sources - = 40br 25sr 20rp
Targets - 10 minor colonies
Industry -
Destination -
Trade - Bajor, Arqueniou, Indoria, Ashidi
So not us or them, but one our affiliates with one of theirs. It'll be interesting to see if that trade link dies once the Seyek become full members.
 
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