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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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People are really blowing this out of proportion. Disliking Luo Zhong on the basis that the Best Friend's girlfriend dislikes him is fine.

But don't go and turn that party into some kind of social ambush he sprung on us to fuck LQ's life into the ground. That was a favor, to help LQ's reputation if she could seize upon the opportunity. That some people missed that OOC before it got hammered into our face isn't his fault. He saw an opportunity and give us an opportunity, it was up to LQ to see it and take advantage, or don't, it didn't concern him personally either way.

If LQ managed to seize that advantage, good for her and he can probably build that up for future connections. If she fails, its no skin off his back. Either way, he had no obligation to do more than that. It was pure business. Fairly benign and win-win even.

And the thing is, that party was useful. It was the event that got people to care about Province Politics and give the thread a needed IC and OOC kick in the butt to switch tracks before they end up alienated every potential ally in the Emerald Seas.
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
It feels a bit weird to hear that the only alternative to the exact set of actions you recommend is "Literally Cai Shenhua". Do you have any comments on the other strategies proposed during the debate, and why you think they're conclusively unviable?
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No. I'm stating in a broad sense, Cai Renxiang (and her close confidants) are going to be attempting to deliver a softer and more nuanced alternative to Literally Cai Shenhua.

Which is why, in this instance, we've no reason to worry about being too strong-handed in this. We're part of Renxiang's court, the only other powerful Cai at the moment.

If people want to deal with Cai clan, there are two Cai. Renxiang and Shenhua.

Literally anything softer than Shenhua will be appreciated.

There's no vote right now. And there seems to be misunderstanding surrounding our political position's strength as well as the root of our negative impression of Luo Zhong (insincerity, one's desires alone do not make a family, man refuses to take no for an answer from prospective partner).

My point in bringing up Shenhua is the contrast of Renxiang to Shenhua. We've got a lotta wiggle to be more hardline, even if we (and the province) would prefer to take a softer hand

the no-win social isn't the root of the issue. It's the strands of conflict which hit on some nerves of ours. I'd prefer to tackle them head-on than try to work around them, given the stakes of the project as well as the likely length of time we'll be interacting with Luo Zhong I'd prefer to clear things up rather than allow them to fester
 
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JowKeen said:
and her close confidants
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Nope. Renxiang arguably what you're saying applies to but How Cai Shenhua Does Grudges is completely irrelevant to to how Ling Qi is going to develop how she Does Grudges.

(Also frankly I think you're putting an inaccurate spin on the actual state of How Cai Shenhua Does Grudges. As a rule, grudges are inefficient for the purposes of putting things into the role she wants them in. Resisting isn't going to go well for you but once she's finally got you where/how she's decided she wants you to be grudge holding would just interfere with things being in the "right" shape. The Hui are an probably exceptional in how it was even possible for Shenhua to develop a grudge with them in the first in the sheer scale of what they were doing.)
 
I think before we make any significant decisions we need to get a better read on what different clans are offering and what the interest is. We don't know what level of interest the count clans have in this project and what level of investment we can then expect. I said earlier that if the Luo clan really wanted to be involved in this, then they probably are only sending Luo Zhong to request a meeting and will try to get someone more senior as part of the diplomat mission. That would be a vastly different situation than Luo Zhong individually wanting to have a position that he thinks will be advantageous.

Before we jump to any conclusions about what we want to do, why don't we see what exactly the people around us want. In any case I don't think that we can refuse to meet with him, especially because there is a decent chance he is acting as a messenger for his clan. Meet, listen, and then decide. We can't get upset and insult everyone over everything and I say that while disliking his character for his actions towards Bao Qingling.
 
So I just wanna state for the record that yeah, what Luo Zhong's doing with Bao Qingling is wrong and stupid. He should stop the harassment when she clearly wouldn't comply.

That said, I also don't want to be automatically dismissive? Especially when there can be more to a character. Like once a choice presents itself (assuming there's even a choice when he's the nearest Luo in contact), I don't want mass auto-dismissal because "he's a dick, he's not even worth considering". I want to talk to him first and see how he presents himself, and from there, discussions can go to whether we accept him or not.

I'm also just getting tired of the Luo Zhong hate
 
I would consider him. I don't hate him. I think he's probably significantly better than the salty are giving him credit for

but I'd also rather be upfront with him about the potential conflicts, because everyone that ends up on this project might be in the story for a long ass time. I don't want any of these very minor fissions to fester over time. Better to get out in front of it with sincerity, and establish the ground rules for how LQ and Renxiang will be running the project.

Above board. Cards on the table. Sincerity and communication. Working out potential kinks well before they start to knot

even if every member of the project signs on to a policy like that, it'll still be difficult to work out. Still plenty of conflict and character moments, even with a stated intent of above-board communication and cooperation.

And anyway, Luo Zhong was described as Naive by Bao Qingling not Dangerous or Manipulative. I have a feeling he's got some pretty earnestly good intentions, but that's just a feeling I can't really back up. It'd probably be good to let this drop til the update when we have more info
 
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JowKeen said:
And anyway, Luo Zhong was described as Naive by Bao Qingling not Dangerous or Manipulative. I have a feeling he's got some pretty earnestly good intentions, but that's just a feeling I can't really back up. It'd probably be good to let this drop til the update when we have more info
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Qingling was pretty clear that while he was a pain in her fucking ass, he at the very least wanted an engagement with her for her abilities and skills and not just her daddy's money.

Which I think is a reasonable back up to your feeling. Dude's ambitious, not malicious. He just really doesn't get Qingling like at all.
 
...this entire idiocy was started by a stupid shitpost that never should have been posted

wtf is with all this nonsense flying around?

honestly reminds me of the nonsense about bringing meizhen or xuan shi or whoever to the white sky expedition. absolute nonsense based on the stupidest of conjectures about what the narrative is going to look like
 
lioli said:
...this entire idiocy was started by a stupid shitpost that never should have been posted

wtf is with all this nonsense flying around?

honestly reminds me of the nonsense about bringing meizhen or xuan shi or whoever to the white sky expedition. absolute nonsense based on the stupidest of conjectures about what the narrative is going to look like
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Without an actual vote to occupy people's attention, the thread overanalyzes shitposts and runs off on tangents that should have been left sealed in the mists of time.
 
lioli said:
...this entire idiocy was started by a stupid shitpost that never should have been posted

wtf is with all this nonsense flying around?

honestly reminds me of the nonsense about bringing meizhen or xuan shi or whoever to the white sky expedition. absolute nonsense based on the stupidest of conjectures about what the narrative is going to look like
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I only post the finest artisanal shit posts how dare you.
 
JohnnieBoy123 said:
So he's bad at communicating, a skill that's sort of important for a diplomat. He also is bad at figuring out what the other party wants, which would be another very important skill for this mission.
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You realize that some people in this thread realize what he was doing right? Most people just didn't care until the QM had to smash our face in IC and OOC with a big neon hammer, but what he was doing was pretty obvious. Is that him being bad at communicating, or was the thread just bad at reading that stuff at the time since there was a neglect of the socio-cultural-politics in favor of powerleveling? He had already given us an opportunity to socialize, we weren't a friend or ally however so he was under no obligation to do more than that.

Not saying LQ's circumstances at the time didn't play a hand in how things ended up that way. But at this point this comes off as using LZ as a scapegoat for our own flaws.
 
Deadly Snark said:
You realize that some people in this thread realize what he was doing right? Most people just didn't care until the QM had to smash our face in IC and OOC with a big neon hammer, but what he was doing was pretty obvious. Is that him being bad at communicating, or was the thread just bad at reading that stuff at the time since there was a neglect of the socio-cultural-politics in favor of powerleveling? He had already given us an opportunity to socialize, we weren't a friend or ally however so he was under no obligation to do more than that.

Not saying LQ's circumstances at the time didn't play a hand in how things ended up that way. But at this point this comes off as using LZ as a scapegoat for our own flaws.
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Yes, its him being bad at communicating. If the other party did not understand what you were trying to tell them, you did not communicate well. If this keeps happening then that suggests a personal failure on his part. We also weren't socially capable at the time and so his decision to include us and then not be prepared to deal with that productively is one more mark against him.

And how is it using him as a scapegoat? We've been accepting responsibility for our poor social skills over and over again, working as hard as we can to improve them. We've made mistakes but we've improved, taking into account other people's feedback along the way.

He is not entitled to a position doing international diplomacy. Refusing him it is not some monstrous snub born of a hideous grudge that will echo down the centuries. Its just a frank acknowledgment that his capabilities and temperament are not sufficient to this task and LQ does not have the time to babysit him (which is partly due to our own skills being lacking).
 
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JohnnieBoy123 said:
Yes, its him being bad at communicating. If the other party did not understand what you were trying to tell them, you did not communicate well. If this keeps happening then that suggests a personal failure on his part. We also weren't socially capable at the time and so his decision to include us and then not be prepared to deal with that productively is one more mark against him.

And how is it using him as a scapegoat? We've been accepting responsibility for our poor social skills over and over again, working as hard as we can to improve them. We've made mistakes but we've improved, taking into account other people's feedback along the way.

He is not entitled to a position doing international diplomacy. Refusing him it is not some monstrous snub born of a hideous grudge that will echo down the centuries. Its just a frank acknowledgment that his capabilities and temperament are not sufficient to this task and LQ does not have the time to babysit him (which is partly due to our own skills being lacking).
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But again. Many of us did understand it. The basic principal of your argument is that he's bad because we didn't understand that he was offering a social olive branch.

Except that isn't true. Many people did understand it. It was in fact blatantly fucking clear to many of us, that's why we accepted his invitation. And its why that party was the catalyst that finally gave the thread the kick in the ass it needed to actually invest time and effort into socializing with their peer group. I am not saying we owe him a favor, but goddamn.

This is holding a grudge over a dude who, invited us to a party and giving us an opportunity to demonstrate that we actually know how to socialize with our peers. My god such a crime, so incompetent, so bad at communication. Its extremely fucking petty. He wasn't our friend or an ally, that he even invited us at all was already more than he needed to do. Beyond that he was under no obligation to hold our hand in the party socially, that wouldn't have helped anyone anyways.

This is a very petty grudge build on nothing with zero evidence of worth beyond some distorted memories over a social event that actually helped us. Hate him over his treatment of BQ all you want, that's legitimate. But this is ridiculous.
 
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Luo Zhong showed himself to be someone who is not worth our time.
Just because he, allegedly, was trying to do us a solid, does not make what he did something else.
We have not been nursing a grudge, or going out of our way to do anythinto him, at most we have ignored him and most of us have barely thought of him since.
Only reason i even remembered his name when is because i did a reread just this week.

I'm not sure why people feel the need to defend him, nobody is exaggerating the severity of what he did.
It was a stupid and pointless social play that left him in a worse position than he would otherwise be in.
And i don't really by the olibve branch argument, seeing what the new retainer is made of holds some water, but just seeing it as an olive branch does not.
This was politics, pure and simple, and unless his goal was to make things worse for himself, he failed.
He has shown himself kinda mediocre at politics (but even mediocrity can make you seem brilliant when you are surrounded by actively bad at it people, and have the power of nepotism at your side), and personally distasteful (both by how he deal with Ling Qi, but especially by how he has been acting with Bao Qingling).

We should listen to him, but unless he really sells himself, or is bringing one hell of a bribe, i see little reason to recruit him into the project.
 
I'm not defending him. I'm just not interested in reading pages upon pages of bitching about someone over a petty grudge. If he or the Luo brings a good offer, we'll hear it out and judge it on its own merits. Not this "Naw we didn't even hear this dude out but I already hate his ass lets throw him out" bullshit.

That is not to our interests, not to our liege's interests, and it's also likely not going to do anything for Meizhen and BQ's interests.
 
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I'd say that calling the discussion going on people bitching over a petty grudge is bit unfair.
And you were defending him, it might not be a strong defense, but a defense nonetheless.
Deadly Snark said:
He wasn't our friend or an ally, that he even invited us at all was already more than he needed to do.
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This is a defense.
Also wrong, because he did more than just invite us, he then placed in a no win situation to test us while one of his allies kept needling us.
Had he merely invited us and left us to our own devises, that would have been an improvement, also him being bad at his job because as a host it is his job to make sure we have a good (or atleast neutral) time and come out the other end with a good opinion of him (unless he had ulterrior motives, which i think he did, and i think he failed at those as well).
Had he just faded away, most of us would never have cared, had we not seen him harass Qingling, most of us would have lot less worries of bringing him in.

But now he seems to be seeking us out, and is using Wang Chao to do it, so it's reasonable for people to discuss our past interactions involving him.
Now it is possible we are all completely of the rails and he is merely coming to tell us he has changed a new leaf and wants to apologice for being a poor host, and hopes we would deliver a message to Bao Qingling containing his apologies for harassing her at parties, and a promise to newer approach her again, but i doubt it.
 
Staff Notice: Rule 2: Don't Be Hateful: Reconsider your language choices when describing even fictional characters.
Valmond said:
I'm not sure why people feel the need to defend him, nobody is exaggerating the severity of what he did.
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You have been personally doing just that for the last few pages...

He has been trying to court an autistic gay cactus, and failing miserably. Sure, he should be more courteous in his courtship, but it's not like people aren't allowed to talk to people who would rather not talk with them.
 
Random Shinobi said:
You have been personally doing just that for the last few pages...

He has been trying to court an autistic gay cactus, and failing miserably. Sure, he should be more courteous in his courtship, but it's not like people aren't allowed to talk to people who would rather not talk with them.
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Harassing people at parties once they have made it clear they are not interested in marrying you, is not ok.
No, means no.
Is that so hard a concept? And going out to a party is not an invitation for any random asshole to come flirting.

I do not know what, if any, issues Qingling has, she may just hate large groups and have anxiety attacks, she may be on the autistic spectrum (not really the picture i had got of her, but it is possible), i don't care, that does not excuse harrassing her.
 
Random Shinobi said:
You have been personally doing just that for the last few pages...

He has been trying to court an autistic gay cactus, and failing miserably. Sure, he should be more courteous in his courtship, but it's not like people aren't allowed to talk to people who would rather not talk with them.
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Seriously? 'autistic gay cactus'?

Heaven forbid people argue viewpoints on here, pages of people complaining about 'overreactions' is much better than pages of people talking about a character.
 
Valmond said:
I'd say that calling the discussion going on people bitching over a petty grudge is bit unfair.
And you were defending him, it might not be a strong defense, but a defense nonetheless.

This is a defense.
Also wrong, because he did more than just invite us, he then placed in a no win situation to test us while one of his allies kept needling us.
Had he merely invited us and left us to our own devises, that would have been an improvement, also him being bad at his job because as a host it is his job to make sure we have a good (or atleast neutral) time and come out the other end with a good opinion of him (unless he had ulterrior motives, which i think he did, and i think he failed at those as well).
Had he just faded away, most of us would never have cared, had we not seen him harass Qingling, most of us would have lot less worries of bringing him in.

But now he seems to be seeking us out, and is using Wang Chao to do it, so it's reasonable for people to discuss our past interactions involving him.
Now it is possible we are all completely of the rails and he is merely coming to tell us he has changed a new leaf and wants to apologice for being a poor host, and hopes we would deliver a message to Bao Qingling containing his apologies for harassing her at parties, and a promise to newer approach her again, but i doubt it.
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This is obsessing over a minor thing. Literally textbook example.

Let me be candid. We choose the Diplomat Route. We choose the double extra hard diplomat route, because we have to try and be the bridge between the Bai and Meng, and we have to try and forge a relationship between a Tribal Confederation and the Emerald Seas.

Diplomats do not have the time to waste brain space on obsessing over a small party between children that actually turned out great for them in the long run. Twisting themselves into knots calling a potential ally an incompetent loser who should go fuck himself. You can hate him for personal reasons for his past attitude towards the lover of a friend, but our duties extend beyond that. All that matters is if the Luo and LZ can be of use to us, and the answer to that is yes. They would be very powerful and useful allies, even natural allies based on geopolitics alone.

That's all we need. That party you keep obsessing about? To be honest at the stage we are at, even if he was trying to fuck with us. It does not matter a single wit. Sweep that shit under the rug and let bygones be bygones, because we have far more important stuff to worry about which involves the lives of who knows how many that supersedes that by a hilarious degree. And the Luo are too important for that to let something as petty be a roadblock.

We want to be a diplomat, so we need the mindset of a diplomat. Or else, if we are going to tie ourselves into a knot over a children's party, that again worked out in favour in the end and hating the host for it. Then how in the name of hell are we supposed to convince the Meng to forgive the Bai for turbofucking them for generations? How are we supposed to convince the ES that the White Sky's Cloud Nomads, who look exactly like the tribes that's been turbofucking them for generations, are not the same group of Nomads and that there is no grudge?

We cant even forgive shit from a party and we want to convince them to forget generations of literal blood feuds, yeah good luck with that.
 
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When the child (how old is Luo Zhong? i've been picturing someone in early 20s) in question is angling for a job in an international diplomatic effort, then their actions at parties they host is something we should consider.
And please would people stop ignoring how this is a man we know who feels its fine to harass someone at parties because they refuse to do what they want (in this case, marry him), that is not an insignificant detail.

As i have previously said, his actions are not the problem.
It is his skill and judgement (and lack thereof) that those actions reveal that is the problem.

And if participating in a conversation is obsessing, then everyone here is at fault, i don't think he had come up in discussion since the party where he was harassing Bao Qingling because, let's face it, nobody really cares about him, but now he has come up, so people want to talk about him.
 
Valmond said:
When the child (how old is Luo Zhong? i've been picturing someone in early 20s) in question is angling for a job in an international diplomatic effort, then their actions at parties they host is something we should consider.
And please would people stop ignoring how this is a man we know who feels its fine to harass someone at parties because they refuse to do what they want (in this case, marry him), that is not an insignificant detail.

As i have previously said, his actions are not the problem.
It is his skill and judgement (and lack thereof) that those actions reveal that is the problem.

And if participating in a conversation is obsessing, then everyone here is at fault, i don't think he had come up in discussion since the party where he was harassing Bao Qingling because, let's face it, nobody really cares about him, but now he has come up, so people want to talk about him.
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Again, we haven't even heard the offer yet. You are literally making a judgement based on nothing. There is no offer on the table, and you already hate the man so much you are flipping the table over.

That is not how we do our job.
 
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Deadly Snark said:
We want to be a diplomat, so we need the mindset of a diplomat. Or else, if we are going to tie ourselves into a knot over a children's party, that again worked out in favour in the end and hating the host for it. Then how in the name of hell are we supposed to convince the Meng to forgive the Bai for turbofucking them for generations? How are we supposed to convince the ES that the White Sky's Cloud Nomads, who look exactly like the tribes that's been turbofucking them for generations, are not the same group of Nomads and that there is no grudge?

We cant even forgive shit from a party and we want to convince them to forget generations of literal blood feuds, yeah good luck with that.
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How in the Empire is reconciling the Meng and the Bai our job? Anyone that expects that deserves the inevitable disappointment.
 
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