glyph
completely and utterly fine
Not my maths speciality, but I'm pretty sure that having holes doesn't stop an object from being a manifold (the torus is one, for example). It just has to be locally smooth.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Not my maths speciality, but I'm pretty sure that having holes doesn't stop an object from being a manifold (the torus is one, for example). It just has to be locally smooth.
Just because Luo Zhong played games with us doesn't mean we should play games with him. He's not qualified so he doesn't get the job. The lack of qualification is due to his behavior to Qingling and us. This is hardly us punishing him as the vast majority of Green talents aren't going to be given this opportunity either. If he gets any actual punishment it will be from his own clan and we will have no input in it.
Trying to make him back off with Qingling is beside the point: if he needs to be coerced into behaving appropriately then he is a liability and we don't need any liabilities for an already difficult mission. Even if he completely apologizes for his missteps it wouldn't change the fact that we can't trust him.
Trying to make him back off with Qingling is beside the point: if he needs to be coerced into behaving appropriately then he is a liability and we don't need any liabilities for an already difficult mission. Even if he completely apologizes for his missteps it wouldn't change the fact that we can't trust him.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I've forgotten most of my topology, so you may be right.
On the actual subject at hand, Luo Zhong, I don't really see what he offers to the diplomatic efforts on a personal level. Do we know what his skills/experience are? If the only thing he offers is as the connection point between his family/clan and the diplomatic effort, then why would he be part of the efforts at all?
Looking at things from a larger scale, this is Ducal level effort being led by the current heir to the duchy (because she asked to be there as a boon), with interest and backing by the duchess who is going to send both one of her personal apprentices and a selection of higher level advisors. The only reason Ling Qi is involved is because of the happenstance of her cultivation/Hanyi; the whole culturally fitting into he White Sky's preconceptions thing. (The fact that any of this happened at all is built off of that).
Wouldn't any of the involved parties want to send experienced diplomats, or at least competent and proven clan members? When we talk to Wang Chao, we aren't asking for him to come along, but to broach the topic with his Clan, so they can present their chosen representative. I expect any other representatives will be chosen in an equal manner.
The Meng might be an exception due to being isolationist (thus caring more about the relationship to CRX and Shensua + potential astronomical research opportunities) and already having Meng Dan involved.
Everyone else will be sending their involvement for the express purpose of representing their interests in the budding international diplomacy with a polity that even the empire has to take seriously. Why would some teenager who isn't even particularly relevant within the Inner Sect members be a count clans standard bearer in such an important event?
If Luo Zhong doesn't have anything special going for him then I see no reason for him to be trying to do anything beyond introduce his clan to the diplomatic efforts through Ling Qi. Of course he could be personally trying to angle for a position, but I see no reason for anyone to indulge him in that. If he was being presented as the foremost diplomat and representative of the Count Luo Clan, then I don't see how that says anything other than the Luo not caring all that much about this whole diplomacy business (ie its not worth the time of anyone with real experience, power or capability).
Looking at things from a larger scale, this is Ducal level effort being led by the current heir to the duchy (because she asked to be there as a boon), with interest and backing by the duchess who is going to send both one of her personal apprentices and a selection of higher level advisors. The only reason Ling Qi is involved is because of the happenstance of her cultivation/Hanyi; the whole culturally fitting into he White Sky's preconceptions thing. (The fact that any of this happened at all is built off of that).
Wouldn't any of the involved parties want to send experienced diplomats, or at least competent and proven clan members? When we talk to Wang Chao, we aren't asking for him to come along, but to broach the topic with his Clan, so they can present their chosen representative. I expect any other representatives will be chosen in an equal manner.
The Meng might be an exception due to being isolationist (thus caring more about the relationship to CRX and Shensua + potential astronomical research opportunities) and already having Meng Dan involved.
Everyone else will be sending their involvement for the express purpose of representing their interests in the budding international diplomacy with a polity that even the empire has to take seriously. Why would some teenager who isn't even particularly relevant within the Inner Sect members be a count clans standard bearer in such an important event?
If Luo Zhong doesn't have anything special going for him then I see no reason for him to be trying to do anything beyond introduce his clan to the diplomatic efforts through Ling Qi. Of course he could be personally trying to angle for a position, but I see no reason for anyone to indulge him in that. If he was being presented as the foremost diplomat and representative of the Count Luo Clan, then I don't see how that says anything other than the Luo not caring all that much about this whole diplomacy business (ie its not worth the time of anyone with real experience, power or capability).
They're a collection of cylinders (6 to be precise, and if you want to start being picky then you go up to 8).
Defining things as manifests in the first place (irregardless of legality which has to do with the continuity of the object in question (to my understanding; it gets very complicated very quickly)) is just mathematicians being overly clever. (so says the physicist disparagingly about mathematicians). ... I used more parenthesis in that sentence then is necessary by any reasonable measure.
And yes @glyph mathematicians never seem bother with this whole reality business. Unless its prison wardens offering overly complex problems for escaping prison, they seem to love phrasing their work in those terms.
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Meng don't like us and sent their representative at ducal court to ask us for a favour of taking one of their people with us.
So while i don't expect every count clan to go quite so overboard with wanting to work with us, it does create some expectations on what the other clans should do to get to say on who is going.
We are personally approaching the Wang because we personally like Wang Chao, we are not doing to same with the Luo because we don't like Luo Zhong (and that's why you don't act like an ass to ducal retainers without a bloody good reason).
Meng approached us because while they don't like us, they do like some of the things we are doing (arguing for weilu cultural things, treating spirits like people, etc...) and gave us an actual useful member for our team (and i still would have been quite happy with being give a sack of rocks with a face painted on it).
Wonder what the Jin and Bao will do...
We should probably talk to Bao Qian about this, or ask Bao Qingling to send a letter home.
Maybe ask Bao Qingling first, she might gain some face for acting as the go between, if she does not feel like it, we can talk to Bao Qian instead.
So while i don't expect every count clan to go quite so overboard with wanting to work with us, it does create some expectations on what the other clans should do to get to say on who is going.
We are personally approaching the Wang because we personally like Wang Chao, we are not doing to same with the Luo because we don't like Luo Zhong (and that's why you don't act like an ass to ducal retainers without a bloody good reason).
Meng approached us because while they don't like us, they do like some of the things we are doing (arguing for weilu cultural things, treating spirits like people, etc...) and gave us an actual useful member for our team (and i still would have been quite happy with being give a sack of rocks with a face painted on it).
Wonder what the Jin and Bao will do...
We should probably talk to Bao Qian about this, or ask Bao Qingling to send a letter home.
Maybe ask Bao Qingling first, she might gain some face for acting as the go between, if she does not feel like it, we can talk to Bao Qian instead.
What did he lose? The risk of getting Ling Qi's ire? Ling Qi getting mad at all over such a non thing would have just proven Renxiang was right when she said we weren't ready to play at that level. Zhong having to use a go between is an artifact of us being ordered to hang out with Chao and that's the ONLY place we are seen publicly hanging out aside from Cai parties where everyone else is at. It's not a conscious effort from Ling Qi, Ling Qi is just a damn shut in as has been remarked many times even at Chao's fight club. Zhong had to corner us in a market place to even give an ask to his hunting party in the first place.
We got that measure from that Luo during the Outer Sect tourny and did not come out well otherwise Zhong wouldn't have mentioned how are Inner Sect duels cleared up some concerns about our martial prowess which is why you tell your kid at school to take his own poke and see what happens.
And lol get out of here with those continual Meng Diu comparisons. Meng Diu is a centuries old indigo cultivator whose job is to listen attentively and add commentary while Shenhua passively psychically pummels her simply by existing in the same room. The two would have drastically different tactics and life experience and sheer social standing in how they approach Ling Qi aside from the fact Diu actively wanted something from Ling Qi besides getting her measure. It's silly.
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As far as I can tell, he actually seems to be well liked and well connected to the Weilu Moderate and Conservative factions of the various Emerald Seas clans. Exhibit A is the regular and fairly popular hunting parties he runs, and invited LQ to. And we're going to need someone who's job is to schmooze with the ES nobility interested in trading with the White Sky and let LQ know what to ask from the WS during negotiations. LZ certainly isn't the only person qualified to do this, but he is the only one LQ can get right now who would owe her for the privilege, rather than LQ owing another clan for sending a rep along.
On a related note, I have no idea where this idea that LZ is a social incompetent came from. He's apparently got a fairly strong "faction" in the sect, which would require some sort of political acumen. In point of fact, Wang names his as someone who's known for his ability at politics and social planning. Sure, he miscalculated his initial approach to meeting LQ, but from the last update (below), she doesn't think he was actually being malicious about it. He just didn't understand what LQ's goals were, which is not unexpected considering LQ spent the first several months of the Inner Sect basically avoiding all social contact.
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He lost the change to have a more or less direct link to ducal heirs ear.
And now has to ask another count clan for an invite to be able to talk to us.
Not sure what you mean about the out sect tourney. You think we left a poor impression on the Luo rep there? Personally i think the opposite.
And Meng Diu comparisons are not silly, because one is a master of politics (or she would not be her clans rep at ducal court) with an active reason to not like us, while another is a kid at the university, so seeing how a master does it gives us a better glimpse at how to play the game than some university student we know to be the kind of person unable to take a no from a woman they are trying to court.
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Aren't those hunting parties mostly Luo vassals or people tryingto court the Luo?
I think his parties speak more about his clan than him personally.
And no, Ling Qi will not owe another clan for sending a rep, unless she wants a specific person to be sent as a favour.
Also, LZ is not social incompetent, he's just kinda mediocre, or possibly just a kid who is over confident, and being lifted up by his clan connections (hooray for nepotism).
And while i like Wang, he is not exactly a social powerhouse to give us the deets on who is or is not great at playing politics, hell, Ling qi is better than him at playing politics and we kinda suck at it.
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His one big problem seems to be assuming other people are more socially/politically competent (and/or interested) than they actually are - even after they've proven otherwise. He thought Ling Qi would recognize that he was helping her reputation by testing her where a bunch of nobles could see her pass; she didn't. Presuming he is in fact gay, he still thinks Bao Qingling would appreciate having a beard and improving her clan's position; Bao Qingling just wants to be a recluse.
Given that White Sky presumably won't be sending any social incompetents on their diplomatic mission, he should be fine.
EDIT: Actually, this probably explains Wang Chao's distrust of him: while Wang Chao isn't nearly as bad as Bao Qingling or early Ling Qi, I wouldn't call him particularly socially adept. It's possible Luo Zhong tried to approach Wang Chao in a way that flew right over his head.
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What are you basing this on? Sure it one possible reason for his actions in that it is not directly disproven, but it is not a read i got.
The "he just wants to provide Qingling witha cover" feels like coming out of nowhere to me.
From previous updates we can infer that Luo Zhong has a personal need for a political success despite his age, and this comes from him perusing Qingling despite being rejected. Admittedly based upon Yrs's comments there is probably more to the story, but honestly it does not seem particularly relevant as Qingling is an adult, and capable of taking care of herself.
Meanwhile Ling Qi, and CRX would certainly appreciate qualified help to lower the boulders that are Shenhua's expectations down the latest hill without being crushed, which seeing as person with a personal interest in the expedition producing results is more liable to put their back into it when things get tough makes it worthwhile to listen to Luo Zhong's job pitch.
Fundamentally Ling Qi has a very personal reason to build bridges with the Luo, and they come from our glorious Overlady almost certainly bestow upon her Rexiang the honor of administering the new land. This means Ling Qi's Family will be living upon what amounts to a glorified tripwire, and/or expendable* fortifications for when the Cloud Nomads make a serious push. Thus it seems prudent to see what "ye old traditions" the Luo have for making their land be difficult enough to take by the Cloud Nomads, and give reinforcements sufficient time to fight their way to the beleaguered Baronies.
*Not that Shenhua will likely view it this way as she seems more likely to have things start at "No land is lost to the Cai" i.e the Baronies survive, and give boons based upon their success level relative to the average Cai Baronies meaning a group that is already well above average by new nobility standards.
Meanwhile Ling Qi, and CRX would certainly appreciate qualified help to lower the boulders that are Shenhua's expectations down the latest hill without being crushed, which seeing as person with a personal interest in the expedition producing results is more liable to put their back into it when things get tough makes it worthwhile to listen to Luo Zhong's job pitch.
Fundamentally Ling Qi has a very personal reason to build bridges with the Luo, and they come from our glorious Overlady almost certainly bestow upon her Rexiang the honor of administering the new land. This means Ling Qi's Family will be living upon what amounts to a glorified tripwire, and/or expendable* fortifications for when the Cloud Nomads make a serious push. Thus it seems prudent to see what "ye old traditions" the Luo have for making their land be difficult enough to take by the Cloud Nomads, and give reinforcements sufficient time to fight their way to the beleaguered Baronies.
*Not that Shenhua will likely view it this way as she seems more likely to have things start at "No land is lost to the Cai" i.e the Baronies survive, and give boons based upon their success level relative to the average Cai Baronies meaning a group that is already well above average by new nobility standards.
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He was a shitty host who was incapable of dealing effectively with us being socially isolated despite us always being socially isolated and him inviting us, Wang Chao is scared of him, and he keeps being a pest to Qingling to the point where she feels the need to embarrass him publicly to get him to back off. When his limitations are revealed he immediately blames other people rather than acknowledge his own shortcomings.
In an environment where he is supposed to be making friends he is instead making those around him uncomfortable. If that's not incompetence then I don't know what is.
Now this isn't exceptional for a teenager but that's hardly an endorsement of his capabilities.
Edit: examples of people who have shown good social skills include Bao Qian for managing to avoid all our emotional traumas and creating a working relationship, Hanyi defusing the situation with the Voice, and Ling Qi helping to reassure Wang Chao in this last update.
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Before that party Ling Qi had been doing a pretty shit job at dealing with any of her peers who weren't her direct friends. After we dealt with those bandits, I see Luo extending an invitation to us a) because he wants the deets on what happened, but also b) we'd clearly accomplished something notable with CRX, so he was willing to give us the benefit of the doubt. Like, arguably that invitation was him doing us a favour, even with his actions during said party. Wu Jing's words to us weren't wrong, and Luo wasn't exactly wrong to prioritise sounding us out at the expense of keeping us off balance.
His actions towards Qingling is a bit thornier, but beyond trying to head it off it's not our place to call him out on it unless things take a sudden big downturn. I'm with Abeo that bringing him on board could be useful in drawing his attention away from Qingling, especially if we can bring in the Bao Qian and get Luo (Zhong) an in with them via Qian instead of Qingling. Plus the general benefits of having another Count clan invested in our diplomatic efforts.
Regarding any personal feelings about his actions towards Qingling... that's frankly irrelevant. There is no way in hell we can use that as justification for keeping him out of it, and if we don't have a good excuse we'd be snubbing him and by extension the Luo for no good reason.
The context directly explained during the update. Ling Qi's dismissive and condescending attitude towards her peers resulted in her being distrusted by the nobles of the Inner Sect, who were communicating that distrust to their families, hence her -2 reputation among ES nobility as a whole before even doing anything outside the Sect (the "hiring prostitutes" thing didn't help, but it was not the root cause). I believe she also had a -3 reputation among the Inner Sect at that point, though I can't find proof.
Here's the best snippet for that (emphasis mine):
Luo Zhong's test put a spotlight on Ling Qi's words and actions in front of a good-sized party of nobles, making it easier for her to prove her negative reputation was unfounded. That's the benefit to Ling Qi. The reasoning for his actions is that Luo Zhong is presumably interested in getting something out of this himself. If Ling Qi isn't a slimy social climber, then what he gets is her appreciation for helping prove that. (If Ling Qi is a slimy social climber, then what he gets is Ling Qi doing further reputation damage to herself, diminishing the threat she poses.)
...but Ling Qi is actually a social incompetent, so she doesn't put two and two together and realize that his test was to her benefit.
And of course he doesn't just want to provide Qingling with a cover - there is such a thing as a deal that is beneficial to both parties. Luo Zhong would also get a cover, plus connections into the Bao clan and a reduction of tensions between the Bao and Luo clans, which in turn gets him favor and political relevance in his own clan. Bao Qingling might also get useful connections in the Luo clan, and would get favor and political relevance in her own clan.
...but Bao Qingling actively dislikes connections and political relevance.
Ling Qi stat wise is supposed to be a social monster and it is finally starting to show.
There is nothing about Luo Zhong that makes working with him impossible, the thing is with some distance we can see he is barely better then Wang at the diplomacy thing.
During his friendly hunt he had all the cards and he spent them to get an advantage (he got a clear idea of where LQ stands on the imperial/weilu scale and how she deals with pressure), the problem he created by putting the pressure on is that when LQ could have given him an opportunity with the training group she went : No Luo Zhong likes to be in control to much for me to pull him into this thing.
There is nothing about Luo Zhong that makes working with him impossible, the thing is with some distance we can see he is barely better then Wang at the diplomacy thing.
During his friendly hunt he had all the cards and he spent them to get an advantage (he got a clear idea of where LQ stands on the imperial/weilu scale and how she deals with pressure), the problem he created by putting the pressure on is that when LQ could have given him an opportunity with the training group she went : No Luo Zhong likes to be in control to much for me to pull him into this thing.
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That doesn't make him impossible to work with. It was bad in that specific context because the whole point of the training group was that Wang and Ling were leading the efforts, and throwing another Count scion in there would have muddied the waters (that and it seemed to be a particularly bad time to make an offer).
That's not an issue here, because we want more Count investment.
- Location
- The Space Between
Bao Qingling idolizes Shenhua and wishes to get enough clout and attention to become one of her apprentices
Bao Qingling specifically doesn't want to have a "cover marriage" when Shenhua is all about unapologetically being herself. That isn't the same as not wanting to climb enough to get attention and clout in-regards-to Shenhua.
Bao Qingling has no issues with connections she chooses to make, she has issue with connections which restrain her from unapologetically being herself.
People seem to be interpreting "stop pursuing Qingling" as a favor to Qingling, but let me ask this:
do you think Luo Zhong's behavior is endorsable?
I don't like it. I don't want behavior like that associated with us or this political project. If we're not at minimum expressing our dislike for his persistent pursuit of someone who has very firmly told him no repeatedly then I'd prefer just requesting a different Luo.
One person's desires, alone, do not make a family. A marriage makes a family. Not only would a "cover marriage" not jive with Qingling's desire to follow Shenhua's path of Unapologetically Being Yourself, it's insincere, and violates how one's desires alone do not make a family.
This is a big opportunity for him, to be the Luo contact on the Social Project of his time. He's undoubtedly the Luo in the position to join the delegation.
But.
Eughck.
I'm fine with him changing, but the pursuit of something so insincere for convenience really makes me like him less
Bao Qingling specifically doesn't want to have a "cover marriage" when Shenhua is all about unapologetically being herself. That isn't the same as not wanting to climb enough to get attention and clout in-regards-to Shenhua.
Bao Qingling has no issues with connections she chooses to make, she has issue with connections which restrain her from unapologetically being herself.
People seem to be interpreting "stop pursuing Qingling" as a favor to Qingling, but let me ask this:
do you think Luo Zhong's behavior is endorsable?
I don't like it. I don't want behavior like that associated with us or this political project. If we're not at minimum expressing our dislike for his persistent pursuit of someone who has very firmly told him no repeatedly then I'd prefer just requesting a different Luo.
One person's desires, alone, do not make a family. A marriage makes a family. Not only would a "cover marriage" not jive with Qingling's desire to follow Shenhua's path of Unapologetically Being Yourself, it's insincere, and violates how one's desires alone do not make a family.
This is a big opportunity for him, to be the Luo contact on the Social Project of his time. He's undoubtedly the Luo in the position to join the delegation.
But.
Eughck.
I'm fine with him changing, but the pursuit of something so insincere for convenience really makes me like him less
Resonant
Procrastinator Supreme
I'm worried that Ling Qi will forever be hopeless at politics if she cannot even learn to work with someone she had a bad first impression of.
By all accounts, Luo Zhong would owe LQ for the opportunity to join the diplomatic mission and if we pass up the chance to get political leverage over a powerful Count scion simply because we find him distasteful, my hopes in Ling Qi ever becoming a relevant political actor goes straight down the drain.
Luo Zhong isn't even a terrible at social, he just misinterpreted LQ since she was a hermit.
By all accounts, Luo Zhong would owe LQ for the opportunity to join the diplomatic mission and if we pass up the chance to get political leverage over a powerful Count scion simply because we find him distasteful, my hopes in Ling Qi ever becoming a relevant political actor goes straight down the drain.
Luo Zhong isn't even a terrible at social, he just misinterpreted LQ since she was a hermit.
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Except if she's the kind of person to hold a grudge over something that small, then it won't matter because she'll have a million even more serious grudges over worse things soon enough.
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This "business deal" attitude of his is worse, much much worse. Than if it was genuine attraction.
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- Colorado
We don't even know if the guy wants to go on the expedition himself yet or if he's just here on behalf of his family to try to get someone else attached to the diplomatic effort/CRX's inner circle. This much salt without anything concrete to vote on is just annoying.
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- The Space Between
As far as I know, everyone, the current "what to do about grudges" role model is Cai Shenhua. What did she do?
She grabbed as much power as she could, organized as much violence as she could, to maliciously hunt every last Hui down and make sure they died, preferably after suffering.
She went hard enough that our prospective sister is from a clan who was an incidental casualty of one of Shenhua's crackdowns.
Are we, as a member of Renxiang's inner circle, supposed to be more communicative and flexible than Literally Cai Shenhua?
Yes.
Are we, as a member of The Heiress Cai Renxiang's Inner Circle, so powerless as to not even mention the unwanted pursuit of Bao Qingling to Luo Zhong? Should he be approaching to get onto the mission?
No.
Assuming that he's looking for a place on the mission, I want to communicate to him (ideally in private) that we're unhappy with his unwanted pursuit of Bao Qingling due to how our Way is. It touches on a number of nerves for us (insincerity, ignoring the desires of his prospective family member, pushy man won't take no for an answer) and just.
No.
I wouldn't want to reject him without discussing with him honestly about what our hesitation would be about. There are ways to read his behavior that are more or less favorable, and the truth is we don't know him well enough to know his underlying character. What we do know is what's bothering us, and we can communicate that to him without needing to make a public scene about it.
We are pretty much exactly supposed to be a gentler and more nuanced iteration of Progress. One that isn't Tyrannical.
However
The alternative to our way is The Tyrant Progress.
So we've no need to worry about being assertive with our concerns or questions. Better the gentle twilight than the Scouring Radiance
better to be sincere about our concern than too coy about it and allow it to fester
She grabbed as much power as she could, organized as much violence as she could, to maliciously hunt every last Hui down and make sure they died, preferably after suffering.
She went hard enough that our prospective sister is from a clan who was an incidental casualty of one of Shenhua's crackdowns.
Are we, as a member of Renxiang's inner circle, supposed to be more communicative and flexible than Literally Cai Shenhua?
Yes.
Are we, as a member of The Heiress Cai Renxiang's Inner Circle, so powerless as to not even mention the unwanted pursuit of Bao Qingling to Luo Zhong? Should he be approaching to get onto the mission?
No.
Assuming that he's looking for a place on the mission, I want to communicate to him (ideally in private) that we're unhappy with his unwanted pursuit of Bao Qingling due to how our Way is. It touches on a number of nerves for us (insincerity, ignoring the desires of his prospective family member, pushy man won't take no for an answer) and just.
No.
I wouldn't want to reject him without discussing with him honestly about what our hesitation would be about. There are ways to read his behavior that are more or less favorable, and the truth is we don't know him well enough to know his underlying character. What we do know is what's bothering us, and we can communicate that to him without needing to make a public scene about it.
We are pretty much exactly supposed to be a gentler and more nuanced iteration of Progress. One that isn't Tyrannical.
However
The alternative to our way is The Tyrant Progress.
So we've no need to worry about being assertive with our concerns or questions. Better the gentle twilight than the Scouring Radiance
better to be sincere about our concern than too coy about it and allow it to fester
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- The Maple Syrup Mountains
It feels a bit weird to hear that the only alternative to the exact set of actions you recommend is "Literally Cai Shenhua". Do you have any comments on the other strategies proposed during the debate, and why you think they're conclusively unviable?
I would not be at all surprised if it turns out that Meizhen wants to join because Luo is trying to join, expressly so that she'll have an excuse to beat him into the ground.