Uh, ignoring the long-term effects of associating with Luo Zhong; Am I the only one who is worried about him joining a gathering that involves regular "friendly" combat and that Bai Meizhen is going to join too?
Luo Zhong is someone Bai Meizhen could react pretty strongly to due to the whole Bao Qingling thing.
Math is hard, so mathematicians often just ignore the reality of the thing so they don't have to spend years working very complex maths to get the equation to do the thing they were originally going to calculate, so cows are spherical, air doesn't exist, and the ground is frictionless.
Uh, ignoring the long-term effects of associating with Luo Zhong; Am I the only one who is worried about him joining a gathering that involves regular "friendly" combat and that Bai Meizhen is going to join too?
Luo Zhong is someone Bai Meizhen could react pretty strongly to due to the whole Bao Qingling thing.
Why does little to change the what.
He is still a person who feels that appearing at a party is a justification for him to keep harassing a woman who has made that they have negative amount of interest in them.
And if Ling Qi is the kind of person to hold a grudge, he ends up pissing a direct vassal of the Cai, a head of a (minor) clan, and a person who has the ear of the ducal heir.
Which makes him bad at his job (of not fucking up).
I seriously doubt he would have done the same if we had been a count scion, what he did was done not out of reasoned risk assessment, but out of arrogance.
The excessive politeness of the empire exists to avoid the kind of friction Luo Zhong intentionally introduced into the relationship between him and Ling Qi.
And there are ways to get to know people that do not include public hazing.
I think that if came down to who would come out better in such a clash, it wouldn't be us or Renxiang. If Renxiang's favor is affected by a vassal getting mad about a pseudo-slight then the nobility would lose respect for her because Renxiang's judgement is terrible if she's picking such individuals as ducal retainers.
I'm not going to defend his treatment of Qingling as it clearly aint great.
Why does little to change the what.
He is still a person who feels that appearing at a party is a justification for him to keep harassing a woman who has made that they have negative amount of interest in them.
Somebody asked me what my suspicions on why he was acting the way he was and I answered them. They weren't a defense of him just what I thought might drive him to act the way he is.
If he wishes to pursue the appointment, Abeo has already lain out all the ways we'll have leverage over him. In all honesty though, the only thing I can think of that we care about in regards to Luo clan or him as an individual, is his unwanted yet "dogged" pursuit of Bao Qingling.
Congratulations Luo Zhong, you played yourself.
He was playing a social game of Counts and Barons he knew well, which he has been playing for awhile in fact. This year, a commoner combat talent retainer is spotted that's clearly out of her depth socially. She's developed competent social defenses, but that's to be expected of a retainer of the Cai. Knowing the Cai, she's almost certainly been under a lot of pressure to learn the defenses quickly, but can she assert herself tactfully? He decides to prod this retainer lightly
first: to see if she's also trained in tactfully asserting herself
and second: to make sure she knows the risk of not being able to tactfully assert yourself
I imagine most commoner talents (in general) may be too embarrassed to request social training directly from their liege.
Or
that the liege has no preference for whether or not their talented combat enforcer is socially autonomous, since it leaves them more dependent and controlled.
Or
that the liege is much too busy to do the social training directly with the new baron, and that they'll have to sort out anything beyond "not embarrassing your liege" on their own.
So, he prods us lightly. He was probably expecting us to respond as a talented commoner loner would, reaching out to the friendly Luo social talent who can train her in the social game. It's beneficial to all parties (by his calculation) as:
the Cai gain a more competent retainer (they have plenty of warrior-tools, but lack for direct landed nobles)
the retainer becomes more competent and capable of autonomy
and Luo Zhong is pivotal in the effort, which is good both personally and more broadly for his clan.
He didn't realize, of course, that we were playing a game of Ducals and Counts, not Counts and Barons. It turns out that:
1: embarrassment that gets in the way of social ties or cultivation progress is something we will always push through. If we didn't we wouldn't be making the big gains
2: not only would Renxiang prefer our autonomy, she would shortly give us a much freer and easier task to practice and build with
3: not only did Bai Meizhen personally drag us to competent social defences, but both Meizhen and Renxiang invested time talking with us about the social game
so, Luo Zhong's prod ends up causing us to withdraw for training as opposed to leaning on him for social training which is unfortunate.
Not great, but that's okay. "At least he left a good impression with the first interaction", he's pretty sure.
Meanwhile, in a social situation he thought was unrelated, his courtship of Bao Qingling continues to not go well. It's going so poorly, in fact, that during a social event Bao Qingling tears away the social screens to make sure everyone sees how poorly it's going. That's really bad, but ah well. It's a situation in which everyone benefits, so she'll come around eventually, probably.
And then he sees, horror of horrors, Ling Qi follow Bao Qingling out to talk to her.
If he looks into it, at all, he'll quickly see the connection from Bao Qingling to Bai Meizhen to Ling Qi and Bao Qian to Ling Qi and Bao Qingling to (the sect's rising star) Li Suyin to Ling Qi.
Oh, and by the way, this same Ling Qi is at the helm for an incredibly prestigious and potentially incredibly profitable Social Project that's south of the border.
It sounds like the exact sort of borderlands diplomacy situation he can thrive in.
And we'll be able to offer him a choice.
Cease pursuing Bao Qingling and come along (on a trip that will end up leaving him dependent on us for interactions with a culture he doesn't quite understand)
or
let a different Luo pursue this opportunity
he really did accidentally play himself into this corner by not simply offering an "all parties prosper" deal up front like Bao Qian did.
other than that, I'm of the opinion that Bao Qingling has enough unique qualities to be hired out as a member of the Argent Sect for the securing, scouting, taming and fortifying of the Neutral Meeting Point (with all the tunnels and spiders) while the Wang contacts focus on fortifying the Imperial holding that will be made nearby.
This assists Bao Qingling's goal of moving towards getting an Apprenticeship under Shenhua, can probably earn her some excellent favor with Argent Sect (as she'll be acting on their behalf in the region), and will keep her closer to Meizhen as Meizhen joins the diplomatic group that's away from Sect.
here's how the Counts all joining could get pretty messy:
Bao Qian is perfect for this venture, and almost certainly going to be the Bao rep.
Bao Qingling could be there on behalf of Argent Sect.
Meng Dan could be there on behalf of Blue Moon, or the Meng.
Assuming there's another Meng available, there could be two Bao's and two Meng's present at the project. Add a Wang and Luo and suddenly Jia and Diao will want to be sure they're not left out.
If the other great Sects also add representatives, now you've got a very high number of green cultivator talents with resource needs pooled in one at-risk holding south of the border. Who are going to attempt to work together to accomplish a strange diplomatic goal through their potentially conflicting Ways, while staying safe in a hostile and untamed wilderness.
Now that sounds like a fun recipe for this Post-Sect project
it's not only a project with it's own intrinsic value, but something which can easily be pointed to as a symbol of Emerald Seas being able to work with one another under Cai leadership. It sounds exactly like the kind of "exceeding expectations" Shenhua would be pleased with
And if the current ducal heir is the kind of person who includes toxic social climbers in her inner circle, that's the kind of thing you want plenty of advance warning about so you can neuter her influence before she has the chance to gain power.
The Cai are not all-powerful, and reputations matter. This has already been hammered home repeatedly, but apparently not enough.
And you can get that advance warning without being an asshole.
Instead he decides to unnecessarily confrontational and now he is forced to go to the Wang instead of being able to just talk to us.
I think that if came down to who would come out better in such a clash, it wouldn't be us or Renxiang. If Renxiang's favor is affected by a vassal getting mad about a pseudo-slight then the nobility would lose respect for her because Renxiang's judgement is terrible if she's picking such individuals as ducal retainers.
I'm not going to defend his treatment of Qingling as it clearly aint great.
Somebody asked me what my suspicions on why he was acting the way he was and I answered them. They weren't a defense of him just what I thought might drive him to act the way he is.
Us vs Luo Zhong is very different from Us vs Luo.
Unless Luo Zhong has orders from home, pissing of the ducal heir, or their direct vassals/retainers, for any reason, is a very stupid idea.
No means no.
Once a woman (or man) has told you that your courting (or flirting) is unwelcome, it is time to stop, and any further continuation of the previous activity is harassment.
edit-
Luo Zhong is the guy who keeps harassing a specific woman at public gatherings while being constantly that they are not interested.
Trying to argue that his actions are fine is basicly saying that a woman going outside is an open invitation to flirt with them and they get no say in it.
Except it's a business deal, not a sexual suggestion. If you stop trying to convince a possible client to buy your services, you'll never sell anything.
Except it's a business deal, not a sexual suggestion. If you stop trying to convince a possible client to buy your services, you'll never sell anything.
He is trying to harass an unwilling woman into marrying him.
Just because he does not care about her as anything but a meal ticket does not make it ok.
He was playing a social game of Counts and Barons he knew well, which he has been playing for awhile in fact. This year, a commoner combat talent retainer is spotted that's clearly out of her depth socially. She's developed competent social defenses, but that's to be expected of a retainer of the Cai. Knowing the Cai, she's almost certainly been under a lot of pressure to learn the defenses quickly, but can she assert herself tactfully? He decides to prod this retainer lightly
first: to see if she's also trained in tactfully asserting herself
and second: to make sure she knows the risk of not being able to tactfully assert yourself
I imagine most commoner talents (in general) may be too embarrassed to request social training directly from their liege.
Or
that the liege has no preference for whether or not their talented combat enforcer is socially autonomous, since it leaves them more dependent and controlled.
Or
that the liege is much too busy to do the social training directly with the new baron, and that they'll have to sort out anything beyond "not embarrassing your liege" on their own.
So, he prods us lightly. He was probably expecting us to respond as a talented commoner loner would, reaching out to the friendly Luo social talent who can train her in the social game. It's beneficial to all parties (by his calculation) as:
the Cai gain a more competent retainer (they have plenty of warrior-tools, but lack for direct landed nobles)
the retainer becomes more competent and capable of autonomy
and Luo Zhong is pivotal in the effort, which is good both personally and more broadly for his clan.
He didn't realize, of course, that we were playing a game of Ducals and Counts, not Counts and Barons. It turns out that:
1: embarrassment that gets in the way of social ties or cultivation progress is something we will always push through. If we didn't we wouldn't be making the big gains
2: not only would Renxiang prefer our autonomy, she would shortly give us a much freer and easier task to practice and build with
3: not only did Bai Meizhen personally drag us to competent social defences, but both Meizhen and Renxiang invested time talking with us about the social game
so, Luo Zhong's prod ends up causing us to withdraw for training as opposed to leaning on him for social training which is unfortunate.
Not great, but that's okay. "At least he left a good impression with the first interaction", he's pretty sure.
Meanwhile, in a social situation he thought was unrelated, his courtship of Bao Qingling continues to not go well. It's going so poorly, in fact, that during a social event Bao Qingling tears away the social screens to make sure everyone sees how poorly it's going. That's really bad, but ah well. It's a situation in which everyone benefits, so she'll come around eventually, probably.
And then he sees, horror of horrors, Ling Qi follow Bao Qingling out to talk to her.
If he looks into it, at all, he'll quickly see the connection from Bao Qingling to Bai Meizhen to Ling Qi and Bao Qian to Ling Qi and Bao Qingling to (the sect's rising star) Li Suyin to Ling Qi.
Oh, and by the way, this same Ling Qi is at the helm for an incredibly prestigious and potentially incredibly profitable Social Project that's south of the border.
It sounds like the exact sort of borderlands diplomacy situation he can thrive in.
And we'll be able to offer him a choice.
Cease pursuing Bao Qingling and come along (on a trip that will end up leaving him dependent on us for interactions with a culture he doesn't quite understand)
or
let a different Luo pursue this opportunity
he really did accidentally play himself into this corner by not simply offering an "all parties prosper" deal up front like Bao Qian did.
Interesting take.
I could see that Luo Zhong was going for the exact kinda of relationship with Ling Qi.
Except instead of going "we need help and Luo Zhong could provide it", we went "this ass is not worth our time".
Whoopsie?
I don't agree that our project is the kind where Luo Zhong could thrive in, well, he might, but it would probably come at the expense of the project itself.
And i don't really see much point in offering him the "leave Qingling alone and join us" deal, Qingling is in no need of saving, and i would rather not reward the behaviour Luo Zhong is engaging in.
Us vs Luo Zhong is very different from Us vs Luo.
Unless Luo Zhong has orders from home, pissing of the ducal heir, or their direct vassals/retainers, for any reason, is a very stupid idea.
Everyone is getting orders from home. It's the whole point of sending people to the sect when the heir is hanging out. And Luo Zhong can just throw his hands up and go "I was just asking for her input I had no idea she would get so mad I wasn't trying to be insulting" and everyone would just nod their heads and then pointedly stare at Renxiang because everyone knows the score and Zhong would walk out clean. Escalating those kind of things to the max is a sign of weakness to these people.
you can make the dehumanizing excuses you want, to help divorce the emotions from the actions, but it's always people treating other people a certain kind of way.
I don't hate the guy since this isn't business it's high-power politics. A marriage between hypothetical Luo and Bao talents could save lives and improve the well being of many in both Counties. It's technically possible for this to have a strong element of altruistic "greater good" here.
That said: I'd like if we made "him backing off Qingling" part of the terms of accepting him as the Luo contact. We could get a new Luo but I honestly like the irony of accepting him conditionally, and I think he could be a benefit (and in turn benefit) from working on this project among peers
Everyone is getting orders from home. It's the whole point of sending people to the sect when the heir is hanging out. And Luo Zhong can just throw his hands up and go "I was just asking for her input I had no idea she would get so mad I wasn't trying to be insulting" and everyone would just nod their heads and then pointedly stare at Renxiang because everyone knows the score and Zhong would walk out clean. Escalating those kind of things to the max is a sign of weakness to these people.
Who says anything about escalating to the max?
Luo are now in a position of having to have another count house act as a go between, that is already a bad position, and is quite enough with no escalation involved.
Luo Zhong made an unnecessary gamble, and lost.
And this argument that he was just doing the right thing in making sure that the poor defenseless ducal heir is not being taken advantage of by some gold digging commoner is rather silly.
We had already met a lot more senior Luo and been taken measure of.
And i really doubt that anyone sent Luo Zhong orders to "take the measure of" the new retainer, look into sure, but you can look into people without being an ass, like we did with the Luo, and the Wang.
And like Meng Diu did to us.
you can make the dehumanizing excuses you want, to help divorce the emotions from the actions, but it's always people treating other people a certain kind of way.
I don't hate the guy since this isn't business it's high-power politics. A marriage between hypothetical Luo and Bao talents could save lives and improve the well being of many in both Counties. It's technically possible for this to have a strong element of altruistic "greater good" here.
That said: I'd like if we made "him backing off Qingling" part of the terms of accepting him as the Luo contact. We could get a new Luo but I honestly like the irony of accepting him conditionally
I don't think the "leave Qingling alone" part is needed, or even helpfull, Qingling is quite capable of taking care of herself and might actually get offended, just pulling him away from the sect would do most of what needs to be done.
My main issues with recruiting Luo Zhong is that he is an asshole willing to harass women into marrying him (not a good sign when going to negotiate with a seemingly matriarchal culture), and that i think he is kinda mediocre at politics.
That said, i am willling to hear his arguments, they just need to be lot better than i think him capable of, or come with lot better bribes than i expect him capable of, to convince me.
Let's also not forget that when Ling Qi had trashed her own reputation to the point that some of her peers were beginning to consider her a threat to the long-term stability of Emerald Seas, Luo Zhong offered her a shot at social redemption at no cost other than having to prove she wasn't as bad as the rumors said.
Luo Zhong's only mistake there was thinking Ling Qi was socially aware enough to recognize it as a favor.
Everyone is getting orders from home. It's the whole point of sending people to the sect when the heir is hanging out. And Luo Zhong can just throw his hands up and go "I was just asking for her input I had no idea she would get so mad I wasn't trying to be insulting" and everyone would just nod their heads and then pointedly stare at Renxiang because everyone knows the score and Zhong would walk out clean. Escalating those kind of things to the max is a sign of weakness to these people.
Even more so under these circumstances - a normal Ducal clan might invest some effort in defending a young master who manages to piss off her potential future vassals, but Shenhua would just dump the failed experiment in favor of Cai 2.0.
He is trying to harass an unwilling woman into marrying him.
Just because he does not care about her as anything but a meal ticket does not make it ok.
Math is hard, so mathematicians often just ignore the reality of the thing so they don't have to spend years working very complex maths to get the equation to do the thing they were originally going to calculate, so cows are spherical, air doesn't exist, and the ground is frictionless.
Ha, as a math/physics student I can rather ascribe to this. Most of the time we don't bother to even say we are dealing with cows and just toss around random geometric objets. (Although I still hold that cows are far better simulated as collections of cylinders). Also, 'assume ideal ... ' or 'disregard {pick one: gravity, air resistance, friction, internal resistance, internal forces, etc.} shows up, well almost always.
I assumed that you were referring something Forge related and was racking my memories for anything cow related in the quest. I don't think they've shown up in writing at all.
Math is hard, so mathematicians often just ignore the reality of the thing so they don't have to spend years working very complex maths to get the equation to do the thing they were originally going to calculate, so cows are spherical, air doesn't exist, and the ground is frictionless.
By harassing them, repeatedly, after being told they have zero interest in them.
What Luo Zhong was doing was disgusting, please stop defending harassment.
Let's also not forget that when Ling Qi had trashed her own reputation to the point that some of her peers were beginning to consider her a threat to the long-term stability of Emerald Seas, Luo Zhong offered her a shot at social redemption at no cost other than having to prove she wasn't as bad as the rumors said.
Luo Zhong's only mistake there was thinking Ling Qi was socially aware enough to recognize it as a favor.
Oh noes, Ducal heirs retainer does not talk to us, civil war is going to break out.
Luo Zhong decided to play games at a social event and is now paying for it, let's not pretend that trying to become a friend and/or a mentor figure to a retainer of the ducal heir was him doing us a favour, instead of trying to get himself into a pbetter position.
And funny thing is, if he had not played stupid games, he could have succeeded, and we would have liked him for it.
That said: I'd like if we made "him backing off Qingling" part of the terms of accepting him as the Luo contact. We could get a new Luo but I honestly like the irony of accepting him conditionally, and I think he could be a benefit (and in turn benefit) from working on this project among peers
I'm super wary of sticking our oar in as Qingling has flat out said we aren't friends and are polite to each other at parties since we are friends of friends and every read I have of her would be she would react...poorly to somebody "fixing" her problems much less a non friend. Qingling isn't some hapless newbie, and she would probably not appreciate treating her as one by going around her like that.
By harassing them, repeatedly, after being told they have zero interest in them.
What Luo Zhong was doing was disgusting, please stop defending harassment.
That is generally how things went under the Hui, yes.
Fortunately, under the Cai there is a straightforward solution: simply trash the retainer's reputation until the ducal heir has to dump her or be proven untrustworthy by association and removed from the succession.
That is generally how things went under the Hui, yes.
Fortunately, under the Cai there is a straightforward solution: simply trash the retainer's reputation until the ducal heir has to dump her or be proven untrustworthy by association and removed from the succession.
I bet Shenhua is super cool with people trying to sabotage her heir by trashtalking her retainers.
I mean, sure it might work, or it might come back to bite you, hard.
So maybe make sure about the retainer before starting to make enemies.
Yeah it is harasment if you squint at it but it's not actualy that severe of a "sin". There are degrees of that and being a pest at parties that gets constantly shot down is not all that severe. Not like he is stalking her 24/7. Honestly it's geting blown out of proportion.
Yeah it is harasment if you squint at it like you do but it's not actualy that severe. There are degrees of that and being a pest at parties that gets constantly shot down is not all that severe. Not like he is stalking her 24/7.
I bet Shenhua is super cool with people trying to sabotage her heir by trashtalking her retainers.
I mean, sure it might work, or it might come back to bite you, hard.
So maybe make sure about the retainer before starting to make enemies.
Shenhua wants Renxiang to succeed or fail by her own merits. If CRX chooses her retainers poorly enough that it undermines her own reputation, then she has failed and will be replaced.
