Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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I am also not speaking in defense of that cultural norm, like I said, it is a font for toxicity, just for people operating under assumptions instilled to them by toxic social norms that perpetuate this kind of behavior. A culture where words mean what words mean and that should be clear for everyone makes misunderstanding harder, and makes the wrongful party much more easy to determine. Luo Zhong would definitely be extremely unpleasant (to put it as lightly as possible) in a modern context, I just am not sure about the Emerald Fields context, however.

In the imperial context marriage is generally an arrangement made by the clans on behalf of their members, with everyone knowing that a poor match could cause significant harm to both parties even if they don't murder each other.

In this case their parents appear to have the final say but Qingling's parents have chosen to defer to her while Zhong's parents are supporting him.
 
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I am fully aware of the source of "playing hard to get" stereotype, and how it is used as an excuse to not accept a no when given, and worse.

I have no reason to assume that this is the case with Luo Zhong and Bao Qingling interactions.
And access to social arts would make it pretty weird for Luo Zhong to be unable to do this basic level of communication, or Bao Qingling to be unable to send the message that, no, she is not interested.

We have examples of courting in the empire, it usually means letters, intermediaries, contracts between families, inviting people to tea in public.
Harassing people at an event thrown by third party a is not, as far as i can tell, the appropriate action.
I don't think there is any need to try finding some cultural context that makes the behaviour understandable, we can understand his behaviour just fine without any differing cultural values.

Good point, social arts do make this whole thing moot, I am back into complete agreement no buts then.
 
Considering the highly formalized court culture, i would not be surprised if there were ways to clearly communicate the difference between "No (but keep trying)" and "no (and go fuck yourself)" in polite tones, and i have zero doubt that Luo Zhong and Bao Qingling would both know them.
Also "Yes (i despise you and everything you represent, but let's do this for the good of our clans)".

I guess Luo Zhong has gotten permission from his father, who would have contacted Bao Qinglings father, who then would have responded that they should consult Bao Qingling, who then gave the hardest and clearest rejection known to man or spirit.
But Luo Zhong, being a teenager from a priviledged background with lot of ambition, thought he could convince her, and stuff snowballed from there.
 
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Considering the highly formalized court culture, i would not be surprised if there were ways to clearly communicate the difference between "No (but keep trying)" and "no (and go fuck yourself)" in polite tones, and i have zero doubt that Luo Zhong and Bao Qingling would both know them.
Luo Zhong I would totally believe knows those. Bao Qingling is more uncertain for me. Everything about her screams a high level of autism to me, and there's plenty of things autistic people just don't get about social situations. Social Rules are very rarely actually explained in a classroom, they're context standards you pick up and infer throughout your childhood by interacting with people and being social. Bao Qingling has never had that. She's been 'troubled' and 'problematic' since she was a child, and plenty of 'everyone knows this' things will have passed her by without anyone realizing. Because again, everyone knows them. On top of that, Qingling actively puts effort into distancing herself from politics and social situations, she actively disincentivizes that knowledge because she wants nothing to do with it.

Luo Zhong is a bit of an ass, but nothing we've seen from him indicates actual malice and ill intent. He makes wrong assumptions and makes mistakes because of those assumptions, like a lot of people do.
 
Luo Zhong I would totally believe knows those. Bao Qingling is more uncertain for me. Everything about her screams a high level of autism to me, and there's plenty of things autistic people just don't get about social situations. Social Rules are very rarely actually explained in a classroom, they're context standards you pick up and infer throughout your childhood by interacting with people and being social. Bao Qingling has never had that. She's been 'troubled' and 'problematic' since she was a child, and plenty of 'everyone knows this' things will have passed her by without anyone realizing. Because again, everyone knows them. On top of that, Qingling actively puts effort into distancing herself from politics and social situations, she actively disincentivizes that knowledge because she wants nothing to do with it.

Luo Zhong is a bit of an ass, but nothing we've seen from him indicates actual malice and ill intent. He makes wrong assumptions and makes mistakes because of those assumptions, like a lot of people do.
If anything, highly formalized setting would make it lot easier for someone with autism to adapt, because there would be clear rules to adapt to.
Assuming she has autism, i'm not sure, she seems more like someone with anxiety issues and fear of crowds (though it is somewhat pointless to try to diagnose her, we do not have enough context).
And i am willing to accept her internal monologue claiming she does have a decent handle on social sphere, she merely does not like it due to her issues with crowds.

Yes, there might be no malice in Luo Zhong, as such, in the same way that a man harassing women at a bar might not really have any malice or ill intent.
I don't think that's an excuse for harrassment.

Not sure why people keep bringing this up, if people have tried to argue that Luo Zhong is malicious, then i have missed it, and if i have given the impression i think so then i apologise for me poor communications.
I guess Luo Zhong has gotten permission from his father, who would have contacted Bao Qinglings father, who then would have responded that they should consult Bao Qingling, who then gave the hardest and clearest rejection known to man or spirit.
But Luo Zhong, being a teenager from a priviledged background with lot of ambition, thought he could convince her, and stuff snowballed from there.
Like i said, there is no actual malice needed, just ambition, and being convined that they are obviously right, and if they just keep explaining it, others will eventually fall in line.

Luo Zhong is almost certainly a talented cultivator (or he would not be in the inner sect), but seems to me as kinda mediocre at politics and social situations that do not fit his pre existing framework, and more impressed by himself than he should be (not uncommon in children of priviledge).
And that would be fine, problem is that the way this manifests is him harassing someone at parties to marry him and not taking a no as an answer, and that is not fine.

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I continue to miss the joke.
 
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Assuming she has autism, i'm not sure, she seems more like someone with anxiety issues and fear of crowds (though it is somewhat pointless to try to diagnose her, we do not have enough context).
The main thing that has inclined me to read her as autistic since her introduction is her high degree of sensory sensitivities, which are so bad that she ended up using her arts to alter how they worked (including basically blinding herself) so she could perceive the world in a way that was less inherently painful to her. Sensory sensitivities are very common to people on the spectrum, and incidentally very #relatable.

Anyway, I love her, which is why I commissioned a story about her and Bao Qian which should get released to non-patrons pretty soon.
 
I continue to miss the joke.
Well it's not just you who's missing a joke here if people are finding something funny ...

I would hope that irregardless of what is the polite and 'proper' way of declining a courtship offer, a public embarrassment and clear rejection at the latest party put to rest any potential misunderstandings. Unless his parents have for some reason ordered Luo Zhong to continue to pursue Bao Qingling, he should be backing off now. There is nothing to be gained anymore right?

To be clear, his behavior leading up to and including the party are condemnable harassment, with the thinnest of thin potential excuses (not that I would be willing to excuse him even so) that there may be misunderstanding. That no longer exists. Thus we can have a rather simple judge of his character by looking at what he's done (if anything) since then.

Bai Meizhen would probably be aware of anything so we can just ask her. Also, she has show interest in coming to Ling Qi's little parties so why don't we just invite here at the same time as Luo Zhong, give her a warning that he is going to be there, and see how she treats him publicly.
 
The main thing that has inclined me to read her as autistic since her introduction is her high degree of sensory sensitivities, which are so bad that she ended up using her arts to alter how they worked (including basically blinding herself) so she could perceive the world in a way that was less inherently painful to her. Sensory sensitivities are very common to people on the spectrum, and incidentally very #relatable.

When did she near blind herself and how did I miss that? I got her whole spidery senses thing going on, but not that she had hypersensitive senses.

Anyway, I love her, which is why I commissioned a story about her and Bao Qian which should get released to non-patrons pretty soon.

Thanks for commissioning that! I certainly look forward to it.
 
When did she near blind herself and how did I miss that? I got her whole spidery senses thing going on, but not that she had hypersensitive senses.
It came up in her Forge of Destiny interlude:
It had not, she could admit, been as bad as her time before the sect. She still remembered vividly her life in that hatefully bright and crowded estate. She remembered her many episodes quite clearly. The shaking, being unable to breath, weak mortal eyes blurring with tears as her chest grew tight and her extremities grew numb. She remembered the feeling of being surrounded and crushed by the weight of the presence of the people around her.

Her alterations to her senses helped, she suspected. With her arts active, she could not see the mocking faces and looming intent of threat in those around around. Experiencing the world in a primarily tactile and spiritual fashion served as a successful filter, even if the practice necessary to ensure that her eyes and expressions still behaved properly had been irritating. This week could, therefore, only be classified as a success.
This reads pretty straightforwardly as "visual sensory sensitivities and need for gaze aversion leading to horrible meltdowns and panic attacks." My own sensory sensitivities are primarily auditory, and a number of close friends have tactile, but the response to the overstimulation is similar enough.
 
The main thing that has inclined me to read her as autistic since her introduction is her high degree of sensory sensitivities, which are so bad that she ended up using her arts to alter how they worked (including basically blinding herself) so she could perceive the world in a way that was less inherently painful to her. Sensory sensitivities are very common to people on the spectrum, and incidentally very #relatable.

Anyway, I love her, which is why I commissioned a story about her and Bao Qian which should get released to non-patrons pretty soon.
I thought her problem was the people? I could be misremembering.
If so, then the odds of her being autistic do go up.

Bai Meizhen would probably be aware of anything so we can just ask her. Also, she has show interest in coming to Ling Qi's little parties so why don't we just invite here at the same time as Luo Zhong, give her a warning that he is going to be there, and see how she treats him publicly.
We have seen how she treats him in public, clear contempt and intentional sabotage.
Not a fan of inviting both in a same party unless we have to actually invite Luo Zhong anywhere due to politics.
But we definitely need to warn her about his presence in any events we invite them both.

Stepping away from the serious topic.
Thinking of the little shrine Zhengui has (well, more of a timeshare on a small shrine with other spirits), having learned that he does hear prayers, and knowing the vitalizing power of his ash/poop, i had an idea (that i am not sure is actually viable).
Would it be possible to create a portable shrine to Zhengui that would spread his revitalizing aura around it, either through responding to prayers to Zhengui (we really should examine the prayer business), using his ash/poop as fuel (possibly using some sort of formation to spread it), or combination of the both.

Sure it's probably almost as easy to just throw the ash on a field, but figured this could be a fun way to do the "go stomp around someones field" business plan without having actually spend time going there, while also advertising how great Precious is to any farmers.
We should also think about making a more permanent shrine on our new fief, once the area gets decided, something appropriately impressive (within our budget) for a legendary turtle snek from myth.
 
Just a reminder that Meng are at 0 right now:
Hmm, for all that Luo Zhong rubs us the wrong way, we are apparently on good terms with a majority of his subordinates, and his clan in general. Regardless of how we deal with him, we probably want to try do it in a way that doesn't worsen our relationship with the rest of the clan.

And hopefully we'll learn more about the internal factions of the other clans too in the future.
 
When did she near blind herself and how did I miss that? I got her whole spidery senses thing going on, but not that she had hypersensitive senses.
It came up in her Forge of Destiny interlude:

This reads pretty straightforwardly as "visual sensory sensitivities and need for gaze aversion leading to horrible meltdowns and panic attacks." My own sensory sensitivities are primarily auditory, and a number of close friends have tactile, but the response to the overstimulation is similar enough.


There's also other bits where we can see it
"Venom infused silk? That is hardly a common style in this region," Bai Meizhen commented idly, a single sliding step carrying her into polite speaking range. Through her parted lips she tasted the composition of the toxin on her tongue. It was odd, one she didn't recognize.

The reaction to her words was interesting. A sort of full body twitch too minute to notice without close attention, and a sort of rustling motion in the girl's qi as she jerked her head to the side. Bao Qingling's eyes came to rest on her face, but it was subtly awkward, not quite natural. Blindness? No, that wasn't quite right.
"It is a flaw in your approach to the subject as a whole," The girl said, speaking words which effortlessly and openly insulted her. Yet there was no malice in them. Bao Qingling's fingers twitched in agitation as she spun on her heel, looking down at the pale white blob occupying her lab. If that were her only sense, then she would have shot back a barb of her own.

But Bao Qingling had stopped relying on her eyes a long time ago. The delicate sense-threads of Qi which radiated from her meridians shuddered and vibrated. The nigh invisible hairs of her body prickled despite the thick clothing she wore. All because she had focused on that girl.
The points of her claws impacted Bai Meizhen's throat in a spray of water, and the force of her charge slammed the girl backwards. Into the side of the crater she flew, and molten rock splashed outward, solid stone behind that cracked as well, and only then did her foe let out a gasp of pain. Bao Qingling felt her blades prick flesh. She twisted her wrist, letting her hand impart the rest of the force. Her feet finally touched the ground, and she loomed over the other girl, breathing heavily. This close, she could see Bai Meizhen clearly, even with her reduced acuity. Droplets of burning stone clung to her gown and hair, sizzling faintly. She too was breathing heavily, her golden eyes wide.


She's also not blind exactly, but she's purposefully altered her vision to be far less detailed so she isn't overwhelmed by sensory input
Her vision is all blurry and unfocused, indistinct shapes, probably a lot more focused on movement if I had to guess
She actually can still see detail, but only up close, probably helpful for focusing on her crafting passion or admiring her girlfriend while shutting out the outside world

Aside from that she mostly relies on these invisible spider-like qi threads to give her tactile and spiritual feedback of the world around her
 
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I hope Lan Lan learns some self preservation arts during bring your daughter to work week. Ostensibly she sunk most of her bonus rolls and action points (ie: cultivation efforts) in the fire blaster tree.
I mean we dun see her sinking effort into ...
weapon proficiencies (only armament is glove)
social meets (no friends)
crafting (it's beneath her, she has people for that)
defensive arts (LQ decided to be a pro at both dodging and taking blows, XL can apparently do neither)
With the lightning power up, Lan Lan is still a one dimensional ranged caster. Like, shooting at a training dummy, Lan Lan's raw dmg is awesome. She might gain parity with crx (w/o ci feng blood tap) and ji rong (w/o going super saiyan). But it's not apex (I doubt she can outburst liling). And in a rematch at full 3rd realm, lightning Lan might still struggle against khang, his shield and his dogs, while best snek insta wrecked em. (ie: her supior fire power isn't all that superior) Lan Lan's lack of escape, control, or dmg mitigation (vermilion raiment is mentioned but not shown) arts means that without someone else (like an army, xuan wu or 3 dudes) protecting her, she gets wrecked. Ironically, and perhaps purposefully, Lan Lan despises this protected damsel status of Fan clan women. Hopefully campaigning will empower Lan Lan to the point that she don't need no man ...for protection.
 
Luo Zhong I would totally believe knows those. Bao Qingling is more uncertain for me. Everything about her screams a high level of autism to me, and there's plenty of things autistic people just don't get about social situations. Social Rules are very rarely actually explained in a classroom, they're context standards you pick up and infer throughout your childhood by interacting with people and being social. Bao Qingling has never had that. She's been 'troubled' and 'problematic' since she was a child, and plenty of 'everyone knows this' things will have passed her by without anyone realizing. Because again, everyone knows them. On top of that, Qingling actively puts effort into distancing herself from politics and social situations, she actively disincentivizes that knowledge because she wants nothing to do with it.

Luo Zhong is a bit of an ass, but nothing we've seen from him indicates actual malice and ill intent. He makes wrong assumptions and makes mistakes because of those assumptions, like a lot of people do.

As a noble she has almost certainly been given formal etiquette instruction from tutors. This would likely be a significant portion of her childhood and, as a cultivator, she would have been in an excellent position to remedy any weaknesses regarding her knowledge of etiquette while a Red or Yellow.

I believe CRX had to give us a remedial version of that instruction so that we wouldn't embarrass ourselves at public gatherings.
 
Luo Zhong I would totally believe knows those. Bao Qingling is more uncertain for me. Everything about her screams a high level of autism to me, and there's plenty of things autistic people just don't get about social situations. Social Rules are very rarely actually explained in a classroom, they're context standards you pick up and infer throughout your childhood by interacting with people and being social. Bao Qingling has never had that. She's been 'troubled' and 'problematic' since she was a child, and plenty of 'everyone knows this' things will have passed her by without anyone realizing. Because again, everyone knows them. On top of that, Qingling actively puts effort into distancing herself from politics and social situations, she actively disincentivizes that knowledge because she wants nothing to do with it.

Luo Zhong is a bit of an ass, but nothing we've seen from him indicates actual malice and ill intent. He makes wrong assumptions and makes mistakes because of those assumptions, like a lot of people do.
There's also the option to ignore any of the nicely crafted, face saving ways of saying no, and just say straight up "No, fuck off, I don't like you and you need to stop." Which seemed like basically exactly what she'd resorted to when we overheard them, and is pretty much impossible to misinterpret.

I do think Zhong believes that a political marriage would be a good opportunity for both of them, but he assumes that because it's clearly such a good deal by most standards, she must be misunderstanding something somewhere to keep saying no. However, that...doesn't excuse his actions really at all; just because you could be more of an asshole or could be doing assholish things for worse reasons doesn't mean that what you are doing is fine.
 
I dun have any insight into the inner wprkings of the Bao or Luo clans, but I'm gonna assume there's competition among heirs. Like, Wang asks us for a gold star to show his elders, and both CRX and Lan Lan have been stressing about succession.
I dun think LZ is worried about benefitting both clans. Bao is wooing us because: Bao gains new talented blood into lineage a potentially powerfull cultivator and spirits and a connection to the Cai; Ling gains established roots (Bao bloodline for her kids, social and business connections for her fam and resources resources resources). Nothing we've seen show's that either clan is seeking political, business or breeding advantages by matching LZ and BQ. (Can you imagine the contract terms of the marriages of CRX's or best sneks parents?) I think LZ just wants credit for bagging a high profile alliance. In LZ's mind he's giving the Bao face by marrying their prickly lil weirdo into a prestigious family. (Cause really what other prospects can she really have). For his noble sacrifice he gets credit for ending the business beef, scoring the friends and family discount at Bao retailers and maybe welping a future inheritor of a portion of the Bao's wealth. The weirdo can just stay in her cave with her spiders while he moves up the inheritance ladder, gets a side peice and lives his best life.
 
I think LZ just wants credit for bagging a high profile alliance. In LZ's mind he's giving the Bao face by marrying their prickly lil weirdo into a prestigious family. (Cause really what other prospects can she really have). For his noble sacrifice he gets credit for ending the business beef, scoring the friends and family discount at Bao retailers and maybe welping a future inheritor of a portion of the Bao's wealth. The weirdo can just stay in her cave with her spiders while he moves up the inheritance ladder, gets a side peice and lives his best life.
No, in fact Qingling has a lot of suitors. She's the last unmarried child of the reigning Count. Zhong isn't a good dude, for all the reasons that have been mentioned, but Qingling puts him near the top of the list because he at least recognizes that she kicks ass.
"There are always those seeking connection to the Bao, and my Father is not a particularly fecund man," Bao Qingling said bitterly. "I am his last unmarried child, and so the wolves circle, desperate for a scrap of favor from the wealthiest man in the province. It has nothing to do with me."

Of that she was quite certain. She had met few of her suitors in person, but in every instance their vapid pleasantries and clear disinterest in her work had made it difficult not to scream at them. It was saying something that Luo Zhong was among the best of them. For all of his irritating persistence, he at least respected her abilities, if not her person.
It's not a sacrifice, she's one of the Emerald Seas' most eligible noble ladies.
 
No, in fact Qingling has a lot of suitors. She's the last unmarried child of the reigning Count. Zhong isn't a good dude, for all the reasons that have been mentioned, but Qingling puts him near the top of the list because he at least recognizes that she kicks ass.

It's not a sacrifice, she's one of the Emerald Seas' most eligible noble ladies.
Ack you're right. Just read the 3rd date, and realized my mistake.
 
The Ugly River Eel interlude went up today on RR and the part where Heizui has a crush on Ling Qi got cut. Wonder why.
Probably because we voted to ditch the sect earlier than planned and so developing Heizui's relationship with LQ can't happen in the time we have left. As an eternally unresolved plot thread, it gets the comb treatment.

As the person who commissioned that, I feel sort of weird about it, but whatever.
 
Mind you, I dunno if that is something that applies or applied in ancient China, never mind fantasy ancient China with more egalitarianism and more cultural divergence, just commenting that there is a social context that justifies this kind of behaviour even to someone who is not an asshole, because some societies encourage(d) the whole "if he didn't persist after I told him no he wasn't the one" that is nowadays rightfully lambasted.
There is yes, how that works is the lady in question ensures she's seen and unaccompanied, then moves away but deliberately remains in the vicinity and unaccompanied to be approached.

The issue here is more:
-Qingling said: "No"
-What she meant: "And please be gone."
-What he understood: "And please get a better offer, I'm not convinced."

Remember the Bao reputation is one of shameless greed. The reason everyone is upset with them is that they tried to literally sell out to the Peaks during the succession.

He likely thinks she's holding out for a better offer, or if she isn't, her clan will do it for a good enough offer. Which as per Bao Qian, she has no concerns about on her current trajectory and her immediate family will back her on this.
 
Through the flowing notes of her song, she had felt a distortion growing around the tall, lanky girl that Meizhen had taken such an interest in and the the frowning scion of the Luo clan. When she had first passed her attention over them, she had heard only the baying of hounds. There was an angry vibration too, and as she had focused on the feeling, a feeling like a curtain being torn.

"....Are being childish Bao Qingling." Luo's voice was low and harsh, but he had barely finished his sentence before he glanced to the side, seemingly aware that his words could now be heard.

"I'm not sure why you think your opinion should matter to me," Bao Qingling replied dully. Her grip on her wine cup was white knuckled. "It is not my fault you are choosing to be naive."

"It is not naivety. I have tried to explain this," he replied irritably. "I had thought you had decided to be reasonable by making a showing, but as usual, you refuse to listen!" There was a sort of tugging at the qi around them, and his voice warbled a bit, distorted.

"I came to show my support for the Cai and the war effort, not to engage in your stupid games Luo Zhong. It was you who approached me," she replied flatly. "I have no interest in you. I have told Father this. Go away."

He frowned, eyeing her reproachfully. And gave the room a look as the sound of baying dogs began to reassert itself. "It is not as if I care for you either. But that is no reason why we…"

Unfortunately, the damage to his technique was repaired, and Ling Qi could hear no more. Their conversation only went on for a few more moments before Bao Qingling spun on her heel and marched away while he was in mid word, leaving the Luo scion looking intensely frustrated.
This might be a final escalation from earlier, more polite(ish) discussions, but if this is anything like their previous discussions, then if Luo Zhong is under the impression that Qingling just wants a better offer, he is far worse political/social operator than i thought.
And i did not consider him all that impressive to begin with.
 
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This might be a final escalation from earlier, more polite(ish) discussions, but if this is anything like their previous discussions, then if Luo Zhong is under the impression that Qingling just wants a better offer, he is far worse political/social operator than i thought.
And i did not consider him all that impressive to begin with.
I think that it is a result of two conflicting goals. Qingling rejects Zhong because she doesn't love him. Luo acknowledges this, but in his view he has a different goal - one which lack of love does not preclude. However, unbeknownst to him the Bao are operating differently to their perceived standard methods.

Also looking at the conversation again I believe that Qingling appearing in a social gathering was interpreted, incorrectly, as a sign that she might well have changed her mind.

Finally as a general comment, I will note that we are basing our arguments off two lines and we haven't given Zhong a chance to explain himself. Thus while I believe that we do have reason for a follow-up, it is premature to make decisions in either direction.
 
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I think that it is a result of two conflicting goals. Qingling rejects Luo because she doesn't love him. Luo acknowledges this, but in his view he has a different goal - one which lack of love does not preclude. However, unbeknownst to him the Bao are operating differently to their perceived standard methods.

Also looking at the conversation again I believe that Qingling appearing in a social gathering was interpreted, incorrectly, as a sign that she might well have changed her mind.
Luo Zhong literally said the he thought Qingling had changed her mind (because she showed her face an an event).
"She appears at a public event, organized by and for someone else, therefore she obviously is now agreeing to my courting."
I have no words that would not get mods mad at me to explain just how, bad, an excuse i find that to be (we have also talked about that earlier).

There are a number of potential reasons for why Luo Zhong is behaving as he is, being terrible at social interactions is possibly the least bad.
I don't think that is the reason, but that argument is not going to go anywhere.

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Finally as a general comment, I will note that we are basing our arguments off two lines and we haven't given Zhong a chance to explain himself. Thus while I believe that we do have reason for a follow-up, it is premature to make decisions in either direction.
We are, however, seemingly quite eager to explain and/or excuse his actions.
He might be a sociopath, more personable than average Xianxia young master, or just a shitty teenager with more ambition than sense, personally i don't care.

We do need to talk to him, not because there is any reason to think his actions are anything but terrible, or that i consider him as a person worth our time, but he is a Luo, and we want to get along with the Luo, so ignoring Luo Zhong when he comes calling, no matter what our personal opinion of him is, is unlikely to be a good idea.
 
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