Ling Qi barely had a 1-step advantage in putting up her techs relative to what the barbarians had. The instant she established her mists, the enemy was aware of her presence. Completing the full setup of her mist takes more time on top of that, which she explicitly did prior to collision with the enemies. She also used other techniques. This is exactly the kind of discounting of opposition effort that's the problem. Ling Qi was no better prepared to fight the enemy than the techniques she released, and the opposing leadership had nearly the same time to respond in kind, not to mention more people responding, while already previously having support techs active.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Finland
Exactly, they, might have won, it's not impossible.
But it would have been risky, and loosing so many of the new generation could have been devastating.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
If you have trained all your life fighting against spear users, and end up in a fight against a known culture for using swords, your opponent being a spear user isn't a 'gotcha', it's a "YESSS".
- Location
- Finland
That assumes that the gear needed to fight spears and swords is not different.
Also, a difference between air to air and air to ground (with no effective AA capabilities) is huge.
Buffs, talismans, weapons, gear, all of that matters a lot, and what you need to strike someone on the ground who can't fight back is different from fighting someone in the air who most definitely can fight back.
And "all your life" in this case is basicly "barely any time at all", these were mostly youths sent against a soft target to get their first blooding, not veterans experienced in warfare of skirmishing.
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More like, you trained all your life fighting against light cavalry with your light cavalry. You sometimes raid these spear infantry guys and you're set up for the hit and run cycle where you punk them no save.
Then suddenly a squad of heavy cavalry pops out of nowhere while your guys are in the charge in part of your cycle and plow through your front ranks.
Its a gotcha because while they absolutely could fight that just fine, fighting it while you're set up to harass infantry is something that'd involve terrible losses until you reconfigure to the "keep away and harass them until they're too exhausted" strategy meant for heavy cavalry.
THAT is tactical surprise.
A strategic gotcha is "they have no solutions, get the lube"
Nomads are resource poor and explicitly have no logistics trains. They have what they had. What they had is what they have. They've got bow, mount, and each other. These points simply aren't relevant.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Except Ling Qi is not 'heavy cavalry' , she is 'light cavalry but with no experience fighting light cavalry'.
They didn't need to change any tactics for Ling Qi, in fact by all laws Ling Qi should have been "ooh, I have beaten the exact same opponent a few hundred times this year". The addition of the infantry here is irrelevant because their mobility advantage means they don't lose anything by spending the 5 seconds to kill Ling Qi before going back to Shen Hu.
Now, what happened is that Ling Qi was just better, but this isn't because of her Flight + Crowd Control build, it's just because she had much better arts and skills. She didn't even need to use her specific anti-army defence art, there. By all right, Ling Qi also being good at stealth, her lack of knowledge fighting flying opponent and 'advantage of being a well oiled army' should have all costs her dearly, but it didn't.
- Location
- Finland
Raiding parties do not carry everything they own with them.
And i specifically mentioned buffs that may need time to apply, talismans that, even if carried, may not be equipped and might require time to attune to.
And not having logistics train is not the same as carrying literally everything you own with you.
Even nomadic people carry supplies, tents, spare weapons, workshops, tools, extra weapons, etc, with them when moving, and raiding parties do not carry all of that with them.
Well, one thing to consider is that Ling Qi has really good stats for her level. We have a few really good arts, good talent and Ling Qi is a workaholic to the core, which almost certainly translates to us having more AP per turn than many others. We also made sure to improve our fighting related stats as much as we can and the result is that we are really really good for our level. In fact, I still remember how we start to complain whenever we see yet another person who is roughly at our power to age relation, because we cannot believe that so many others can keep up with our spreadsheet power. I think it is perfectly fair that our superior stats actually translate to a clear advantage in a fight.
There is also another thing to consider: Casualties. Sure, the barbs probably would have won the fight against Ling Qi, had they fought it to the end, but at what cost? Another thing is that this was meant to be an easy raid for them, and all through the fight, their Reds were able to hit all the easy targets despite our interference. If you consider how little there was to gain for the barbs by fighting it out together with the likely significant casualties we would have inflicted by fighting it out, then it makes perfect sense for the barbs to retreat at that point, especially if we additionally consider that they had no intention of actually holding any territory gained in this fight.
There is also another thing to consider: Casualties. Sure, the barbs probably would have won the fight against Ling Qi, had they fought it to the end, but at what cost? Another thing is that this was meant to be an easy raid for them, and all through the fight, their Reds were able to hit all the easy targets despite our interference. If you consider how little there was to gain for the barbs by fighting it out together with the likely significant casualties we would have inflicted by fighting it out, then it makes perfect sense for the barbs to retreat at that point, especially if we additionally consider that they had no intention of actually holding any territory gained in this fight.
I already addressed buffs. They already had some up, and had time to react to Ling Qi's non-instant windup that she started at the same time she deliberately flexed her spirit at the enemy, so underestimation would not be a legitimate expectation on their part. Special anti-air talismans that we've never seen before and have no reason to suspect exist as a factor for Cloud Nomad sky dueling tactics are speculative. Everything else you listed is irrelevant.
I'm not sure why there's this insistence that Ling Qi should have had, on paper, an advantage against the Cloud Nomads. Her flying talisman mitigates their advantage of flight, but through experience and build focus, they should by all rights still hold flight and air tactics as an advantage relative Ling Qi. It's just a much smaller advantage than it is against non-flying imperials.
We shouldn't have been able to nab the members that we did, basically. Their keep away game should have been stronger, except for our teleporting cheat, but we should have taken real retaliation for the stunt. Considering barbs rely on mass-group cooperative buff networks, and that they fight each other, it also would have made sense to see some serious face dispel techs smacking into our mist ball. We did see our AoE debuffs falling flat, and that's good, but 3 greens backed up by a couple dozen yellows ought to have dished out more... stuff.
- Location
- Finland
I'm not arguing that Ling Qi should have an advantage against barbarians.
I'm pointing out that Ling Qi was something they were not expecting, therefore not prepared for in terms of already active buffs, talismans, potentially even weapons or warriors brought along.
Yet, even caught pants down tactically speaking, they could retreat with minimal losses because even while Ling Qi can fly, the barbarians are more used to it and had group buffs to aid exactly this kind of environment, and had Ling Qi chased them, she might have ended up in quite a bad spot.
Had the barbarian war party come in expecting a flyer, Ling Qi might have lost, or even if she won, that victory could have been very, very expensive.
A dispel would have been a good opportunity to show off our new Resist talisman. It might have been a better one than that scene against the assassin where we kind of used it more as a dispel, so yeah I can agree to that such a scene would have been cool.
As for their retaliation: Ling Qi did not quite fight like a cloud barbarian opponent, who I assume would have kept his distance, which would result in both sides shooting at each other. And I think we had some mention about the bardbarian being roughly at our age? If so, I can believe that this group is in fact not as practiced and experienced as veterans would have been.
- Location
- The Space Between
So to the first: How long do you think the Snarl has been growing? Because I think it's been a long time coming, like closer to start of Threads time coming.
For the second: Nah, the Barb's favored terrain is Air-to-Ground combat against slow or slower small numbers (or individuals) that are individually stronger than them. Particularly when the targets weren't prepared for numbers. Air-to-air with same speed that is prepared and specialized against mass tactics isn't something they were ready to fight, but *could* once we were visible and planned for. However, the lion's share of their yellows were killing that one green noble and the Bardbarian pushed us off and then sounded a retreat because they'd succeeded in bloodying the nose of the dragon.
We had elements of Surprise, being an Unknown, being specced against mass tactics, nearly negating their normal advantage of speed, equalizing on the ability to Fly, showing the power to severely maim green 3-ish enemy barbs. We would have struggled if they mustered a proper assault on us, but thankfully they had already succeeded in their goal and we were *just* troublesome enough (along with Shen Hu) that they decided to simply sound general retreat before the Sect could muster a response. They had already won, all we did was reduce the damage taken.
I agree with the third point, though not that they aren't legends. Okay, Hanyi and Six are just real strong/unique but Zhengui is a powerhouse. I would say the spirits are 100% what allowed us to fight the BINO fight as well as we did. A ton of resources had to be allocated to him and Zhengui literally ate one of the spirits. Hanyi only got a few here and there but she helped trim down the yellows. Six is also our pillar of strength because we use her so much all the time <3 <3 <3
anyway love u abeo <3 u a good wrongvoter
Phantom Memories
- Location
- United States of America
Phantom… Memories?
Memories and dreams floated around Ling Qi's projection like music on the wind, each strand a different note in a mind's melody. Normally the dreams of the Jedi at the temple were quiet unassuming things, having trained their bodies, minds, and souls to be at peace and unattached to the troubles of the world around them. Not so today. Today there was a strum of unease filling the dreams of the Jedi younglings to the Jedi masters, even those who sat on the council above all others had a disquiet feel to their dreams. She had heard the rumors, of course, that the maverick of a Jedi Master, Master Qui-Gon Jinn, had been laid low by a creature most foul. A Sith master, or an apprentice, or even a simple dark side user. The rumors were unclear in that regard. Still, to receive some evidence that the Sith were out there, lurking, waiting until the ripe moment to strike unnerved many within the Order who had heard the rumors. And, rumors being rumors, that was everyone in the Temple. It seemed that even an order devoted to detachment and peace still fell sway to the urge of gossip.
But there was an even softer note hiding behind all of the other rumors. Whispers that Master Qui-Gon Jinn had taken an apprentice before he died, an apprentice so powerful in the force that even his age couldn't stop the Order from accepting him into their fold. Mutterings that a prophecy was on the brink of fulfillment and that a Chosen One had appeared to rid the galaxy of Sith forever and bring a new age of enlightenment and peace. She let out a snort of amusement at the thought, sending ripples of delight through the dream she was peering at. Su Ling was still a cherished memory of her's, and she needed no further education in the reality of omens and prophecies to understand just how… fickle and insubstantial they really were. Useful, to be sure, but never should they be relied on in their totality without something else to judge the future by.
Her soul caught another strand of unease and fear in space between dreamers. Stronger and unbridled. An individual not fully trained in the ways of detachment and serenity was having nightmares it seemed. Smiling, Ling Qi took a moonlit step and appeared beside the dream. It appeared to be the dream of a young boy, too old to be a youngling but not old enough to be a man, and the dream was filled with fear and uncertainty. More than that though, Ling Qi could sense power in the dream, the force seeped through it like molasses, whispering promised futures and uncertain pasts. Untrained though he was, this boy seemed to have a gift with the force. But the fear here, it was stifling.
With a slight sigh, Ling Qi parted the veil between dream and not, then stepped through. Before her was the High Council chambers with a greatly exaggerated caricature of Master Windu quizzing a small child about what was on a testing screen. To the side of the child was a ghostly Master Qui-Gon Jinn and… a padawan who she had seen in Master Qui-Gon Jinn's presence before, shaking their heads mournfully. Apparently, the child was doing poorly on this ridiculous test and in his dreams was about to be kicked out of the Order and abandoned on the streets of Coruscant. With a whisper of silk, Ling Qi sat down on one of the council chairs, drew forth a flute, and began to play. Slow, contemplative, and serene music floated through the dream, touching every corner and facet of the space. The High Council chambers twisted and molded into something different, a peaceful garden grove with a quiet babbling brook, bright flowers, and songbirds reverberating the melody. Twirling around, the young boy spotted her seat upon the boulder.
And upon seeing her, words fell out of his mouth like water from a waterfall, "Who are you? Why are you here? What have you done? Where is this place? Wh…"
With a wave of her hand, Ling Qi stopped the babbling questions. "It seems," she began, "that you have many questions and have much to learn here in the Order. However, I'm sure that your mother taught you basic manners. Why don't you start by giving your name before asking for another's?"
The boy teared up at the mention of his mother but soldiered with a choked gasp. "My… my name is Anakin Skywalker. What is your name?"
"My name, Anakin, is Ling Qi. You may call me, however, Jedi Knight Ling or Knight Ling."
"Knight Ling, uh... what are you doing?"
"Well, I had heard rumors that a Chosen One had appeared and resolved myself to find out more about this mysterious individual. Unfortunately, I found a dream beset by the fears and uncertainties of a child and resigned myself to playing the part of a nursemaid for the night."
"Will… will you always show up if I have bad dreams like these?"
"No. I have numerous duties and obligations outside of being a crutch for someone to lean on."
The child looked devastated at the news, looking down at his shoes and kicking at the dirt. It was kind of endearing. He looked like what Zhengui used to look like when they were a child and she didn't have any more snacks… damn it.
"I will, however, give some advice. You are a member of our order now, and unless you do something so egregious to force the Council to remove you, or you leave of your own volition, you will always be a member of our order. Do not fear failure, as those surrounding you will assist and provide sanctuary. It is our unity and willingness to work together that is the strength of the Jedi Order."
With a swirl of moonlit dappled darkness and the hint of music on the wind, Ling Qi stood up and proceeded to the edge of the dream. Remembering better times was… bittersweet, and she had no desire to remain now that the child had calmed down. With a simple breath, the door between the dream and not opened and Ling Qi stepped outside, followed by the small voice of a child.
"Thank you."
A/N: @yrsillar another omake for the omake throne! My goodness has it been a long time since I've written an omake for ToD, and it feels good to do so again. This is an idea I had that just wanted to get out there. This takes place right after the Phantom Menance. Enjoy, and don't be afraid to critique or criticize!
Memories and dreams floated around Ling Qi's projection like music on the wind, each strand a different note in a mind's melody. Normally the dreams of the Jedi at the temple were quiet unassuming things, having trained their bodies, minds, and souls to be at peace and unattached to the troubles of the world around them. Not so today. Today there was a strum of unease filling the dreams of the Jedi younglings to the Jedi masters, even those who sat on the council above all others had a disquiet feel to their dreams. She had heard the rumors, of course, that the maverick of a Jedi Master, Master Qui-Gon Jinn, had been laid low by a creature most foul. A Sith master, or an apprentice, or even a simple dark side user. The rumors were unclear in that regard. Still, to receive some evidence that the Sith were out there, lurking, waiting until the ripe moment to strike unnerved many within the Order who had heard the rumors. And, rumors being rumors, that was everyone in the Temple. It seemed that even an order devoted to detachment and peace still fell sway to the urge of gossip.
But there was an even softer note hiding behind all of the other rumors. Whispers that Master Qui-Gon Jinn had taken an apprentice before he died, an apprentice so powerful in the force that even his age couldn't stop the Order from accepting him into their fold. Mutterings that a prophecy was on the brink of fulfillment and that a Chosen One had appeared to rid the galaxy of Sith forever and bring a new age of enlightenment and peace. She let out a snort of amusement at the thought, sending ripples of delight through the dream she was peering at. Su Ling was still a cherished memory of her's, and she needed no further education in the reality of omens and prophecies to understand just how… fickle and insubstantial they really were. Useful, to be sure, but never should they be relied on in their totality without something else to judge the future by.
Her soul caught another strand of unease and fear in space between dreamers. Stronger and unbridled. An individual not fully trained in the ways of detachment and serenity was having nightmares it seemed. Smiling, Ling Qi took a moonlit step and appeared beside the dream. It appeared to be the dream of a young boy, too old to be a youngling but not old enough to be a man, and the dream was filled with fear and uncertainty. More than that though, Ling Qi could sense power in the dream, the force seeped through it like molasses, whispering promised futures and uncertain pasts. Untrained though he was, this boy seemed to have a gift with the force. But the fear here, it was stifling.
With a slight sigh, Ling Qi parted the veil between dream and not, then stepped through. Before her was the High Council chambers with a greatly exaggerated caricature of Master Windu quizzing a small child about what was on a testing screen. To the side of the child was a ghostly Master Qui-Gon Jinn and… a padawan who she had seen in Master Qui-Gon Jinn's presence before, shaking their heads mournfully. Apparently, the child was doing poorly on this ridiculous test and in his dreams was about to be kicked out of the Order and abandoned on the streets of Coruscant. With a whisper of silk, Ling Qi sat down on one of the council chairs, drew forth a flute, and began to play. Slow, contemplative, and serene music floated through the dream, touching every corner and facet of the space. The High Council chambers twisted and molded into something different, a peaceful garden grove with a quiet babbling brook, bright flowers, and songbirds reverberating the melody. Twirling around, the young boy spotted her seat upon the boulder.
And upon seeing her, words fell out of his mouth like water from a waterfall, "Who are you? Why are you here? What have you done? Where is this place? Wh…"
With a wave of her hand, Ling Qi stopped the babbling questions. "It seems," she began, "that you have many questions and have much to learn here in the Order. However, I'm sure that your mother taught you basic manners. Why don't you start by giving your name before asking for another's?"
The boy teared up at the mention of his mother but soldiered with a choked gasp. "My… my name is Anakin Skywalker. What is your name?"
"My name, Anakin, is Ling Qi. You may call me, however, Jedi Knight Ling or Knight Ling."
"Knight Ling, uh... what are you doing?"
"Well, I had heard rumors that a Chosen One had appeared and resolved myself to find out more about this mysterious individual. Unfortunately, I found a dream beset by the fears and uncertainties of a child and resigned myself to playing the part of a nursemaid for the night."
"Will… will you always show up if I have bad dreams like these?"
"No. I have numerous duties and obligations outside of being a crutch for someone to lean on."
The child looked devastated at the news, looking down at his shoes and kicking at the dirt. It was kind of endearing. He looked like what Zhengui used to look like when they were a child and she didn't have any more snacks… damn it.
"I will, however, give some advice. You are a member of our order now, and unless you do something so egregious to force the Council to remove you, or you leave of your own volition, you will always be a member of our order. Do not fear failure, as those surrounding you will assist and provide sanctuary. It is our unity and willingness to work together that is the strength of the Jedi Order."
With a swirl of moonlit dappled darkness and the hint of music on the wind, Ling Qi stood up and proceeded to the edge of the dream. Remembering better times was… bittersweet, and she had no desire to remain now that the child had calmed down. With a simple breath, the door between the dream and not opened and Ling Qi stepped outside, followed by the small voice of a child.
"Thank you."
A/N: @yrsillar another omake for the omake throne! My goodness has it been a long time since I've written an omake for ToD, and it feels good to do so again. This is an idea I had that just wanted to get out there. This takes place right after the Phantom Menance. Enjoy, and don't be afraid to critique or criticize!
Ok, I think it is time for an effort-post. As some of you might already know there is currently a discussion going on discord regarding successor arts and I think it is time that we also talk about it here in the thread.
First let us recap some background information: As soon as we hit Green 4, we will be able to create our own successors for arts that we have completed. This will happen either during the training in turn 9 or in turn 10, so successor creation becomes possible either in turn 10 or turn 11.
Creating and training a successor is also a requirement for the breakthrough from Green 5 to Green 6, which is currently estimated to be possible somewhere between turn 20 and turn 22 (this can still change a lot as the quest goes on). The precise wording for that rule is "Successfully created and mastered a Successor art of at least Green 3 potency and a Max level of 5". However, we had this discussion with yrsillar yesterday:
Now to the creation process: we will need to spend AP to do efficiency upgrades for the art so that we don't get overwhelmed by the meridian costs later. This will likely take about 3 AP per art. Then the art creation process according to the formula on the frontpage means that the creation process will have following costs:
If the original Art ends in Green 1: 9 AP for a 5-level art. +1 AP for every extra level
If the original Art ends in Green 2: 9 AP for a 5-level art. +1 AP for every extra level
If the original art ends in Green 3: 10 AP for a 5-level art. +1 AP for every extra level
This process will give us the successor with level 1 already trained, so that we can use it right away, but training it up will take at least another turn training.
As you can see the entire process is rather expensive and since the current rules say that the 4 AP per turn limit applies to this process too, it is also a slow process. We will need at least 3 turns for the creation process + 1 turn for the efficiency upgrades (unless we can still do it during the successor creation @yrsillar?) + 1 turn to train it up from level 1 for about 4-5 turns from start to finish.
We also have another consideration: the big competition in this quest is not at the end of it (Turn 26), it is in turn 18 (note: we were assured that we still have the turn 18 training before the competition). If we want that a cool new successor can shine in that competition, then we need to start ~turn 13-14 at the very latest. In addition, this means that all 'let us do this after the tournament' arguments mean that the art would get use only in turn 23 at the earliest, maybe later. This means that those arts no longer matter for the breakthrough and that they will get almost no narrative relevance during the main events in this quest.
Ok now that we have the background, let us look at the arts that we could make a successor for:
We have currently have FVM, FSS, TRF, HDW, SES, ENM and AM as possible candidates, so let us look at them (note: I admit that I am a bit biased here, but I think this will still be a decent overview)
FVM: This is the first music art we got, and it is Ling Qi's signature move like no other art we have. It got a lot of narrative focus over time and it is also quite powerful all things considered. This of course makes it a very good candidate for a successor in principle. The biggest problem the art has or had is that people really wanted an 8-level successor for it, because the original art has 8 levels. This would likely mean it would end in Green 6 and therefore become unviable for the breakthrough condition. If yrsillar actually allows FVM+ to count for the breakthrough condition, then this is no longer a problem. Another problem raised during discussions was that FVM+ would directly compete against the new BKSD in out build. My opinion is that I care far more about FVM than about BKSD. BKSD gets enough time to shine during the time we are creating FVM+ (remember, it is a slow process), so I would be ok with this trade-off.
FSS: This is another music art we got and while not as iconic as FVM it got a lot of narrative focus as well. It is also our current big dps art. The successor creation arc should work well with Hanyi to continue the Zeqing/Hanyi plotline. Both, narrative reasons and practical value, make FSS+ a good successor art too. The main arguments against it are similar to FVM: we wanted more than 5 levels, which might have made it unviable for the breakthrough rule, but if yrsillar allows it, then this is no longer a concern. Another argument against it is that it would compete against UGM. However, UGM, while also a cold DPS art, is different enough from FSS that we should be able to find utility for both of them and there should be less of a meridian conflict, because we have little competition for arm meridians.
TRF: This is our current defense art. It got less attention than the previous two arts, but it still appeared in the narrative quite a bit and it really helped us a lot in fights. So, while not as narrative relevant as the previous two arts, it is still a decent choice in principle. As far as I know, no one really had a problem with making it a 5-level art that ends in Green 5, so there is no problem here either. However, the art does have a practical problem, because we are already intending to use SNR to replace it, as SNR is built to be equally good against Physical and Spiritual, while TRF is more built against Physical. SNR ends in G4, true, but isn't it more practical to just go for SNR+ after that instead? This is why some looked into turning TRF+ away from an armor art into a resist/sustain art.
We got this as answer to it:
AM: huh, what is an Argent doing here? But seriously, this art also contributed quite a bit to the narrative (sincerity and all that). However, no one really wants the argents back and we already have a new perception art that we are happy with. In addition, AM+ would likely be a G2-G4 art, which is also not what we want by the time we get to make it.
HDW: HDW is our unfortunate social perception/combat buff hybrid music art. It has a rather cool perception tech and I don't think anyone is actively against its themes, but its buffs techs never saw real application and it had little narrative contribution (not nothing, but it is by far not as prominent as the previously mentioned arts). I don't think anyone would mind making it a 5-level art, if we made it at all. We already have more than enough good social arts, so we don't need another one, but a potential HDW+ could still be turned into a full support music art (that hopefully doesn't suck) and we were just talking about wanting more support, so while I don't know anyone who would be too enthusiastic about it, HDW+ is still a valid compromise candidate.
SES: SES is our resist music art and it is for the purpose of art creation basically a worse HDW. It has even less narrative presence, Resist in the form of a music art is somewhat awkward for the narrative as Ling Qi needs to interrupt her current song to play SES and overall the theme had less support than HDW. Even those who want to make a resist art would prefer to turn TRF into one than to go for SES+.
ENM: This art has even less narrative presence than the above arts, mostly because we didn't have it particularly long yet, but it is still true. ENM also has the problem that Wind Thief does everything ENM does but better. The only advantage of ENM is that it has the Fade keyword and I guess the fact that LFWT+ENM gives more stealth than LFWT alone. The way I see it, ENM's main appeal was stronger when we still needed the successor to end in G5 mainly for those who wanted neither TRF+ nor HDW+. On a personal note, I also like the idea of a Grinning/Hidden/Dreaming Moon based stealth art much more than the current ENM theme. Especially Erebeal had some cool ideas.
We could of course also take one of the as of now untrained archive 1 arts, but those would have even less narrative presence than ENM, so I really dont think they are worth considering for this.
Another thing I want to mention is the possibility of making more than one successor: We could for example make both FVM+ and FSS+ before the competition, but we need to be aware that this is going to const quite a bit of AP to do.
And a last thing to mention: It is likely that the first selfmade successor is special, at least from the narrative pov, so we really should make sure that the first successor is something we actually want to use and we should make it early enough that it has time to shine in the story.
First let us recap some background information: As soon as we hit Green 4, we will be able to create our own successors for arts that we have completed. This will happen either during the training in turn 9 or in turn 10, so successor creation becomes possible either in turn 10 or turn 11.
Creating and training a successor is also a requirement for the breakthrough from Green 5 to Green 6, which is currently estimated to be possible somewhere between turn 20 and turn 22 (this can still change a lot as the quest goes on). The precise wording for that rule is "Successfully created and mastered a Successor art of at least Green 3 potency and a Max level of 5". However, we had this discussion with yrsillar yesterday:
This means that he will likely also accept big successor arts that go from Green 3 to Green 6 (such an art would likely have 5 or more levels between Green 3 and Green 5) for the breakthrough condition, as long as we don't try to cheese that extra leeway.
Now to the creation process: we will need to spend AP to do efficiency upgrades for the art so that we don't get overwhelmed by the meridian costs later. This will likely take about 3 AP per art. Then the art creation process according to the formula on the frontpage means that the creation process will have following costs:
If the original Art ends in Green 1: 9 AP for a 5-level art. +1 AP for every extra level
If the original Art ends in Green 2: 9 AP for a 5-level art. +1 AP for every extra level
If the original art ends in Green 3: 10 AP for a 5-level art. +1 AP for every extra level
This process will give us the successor with level 1 already trained, so that we can use it right away, but training it up will take at least another turn training.
As you can see the entire process is rather expensive and since the current rules say that the 4 AP per turn limit applies to this process too, it is also a slow process. We will need at least 3 turns for the creation process + 1 turn for the efficiency upgrades (unless we can still do it during the successor creation @yrsillar?) + 1 turn to train it up from level 1 for about 4-5 turns from start to finish.
We also have another consideration: the big competition in this quest is not at the end of it (Turn 26), it is in turn 18 (note: we were assured that we still have the turn 18 training before the competition). If we want that a cool new successor can shine in that competition, then we need to start ~turn 13-14 at the very latest. In addition, this means that all 'let us do this after the tournament' arguments mean that the art would get use only in turn 23 at the earliest, maybe later. This means that those arts no longer matter for the breakthrough and that they will get almost no narrative relevance during the main events in this quest.
Ok now that we have the background, let us look at the arts that we could make a successor for:
We have currently have FVM, FSS, TRF, HDW, SES, ENM and AM as possible candidates, so let us look at them (note: I admit that I am a bit biased here, but I think this will still be a decent overview)
FVM: This is the first music art we got, and it is Ling Qi's signature move like no other art we have. It got a lot of narrative focus over time and it is also quite powerful all things considered. This of course makes it a very good candidate for a successor in principle. The biggest problem the art has or had is that people really wanted an 8-level successor for it, because the original art has 8 levels. This would likely mean it would end in Green 6 and therefore become unviable for the breakthrough condition. If yrsillar actually allows FVM+ to count for the breakthrough condition, then this is no longer a problem. Another problem raised during discussions was that FVM+ would directly compete against the new BKSD in out build. My opinion is that I care far more about FVM than about BKSD. BKSD gets enough time to shine during the time we are creating FVM+ (remember, it is a slow process), so I would be ok with this trade-off.
FSS: This is another music art we got and while not as iconic as FVM it got a lot of narrative focus as well. It is also our current big dps art. The successor creation arc should work well with Hanyi to continue the Zeqing/Hanyi plotline. Both, narrative reasons and practical value, make FSS+ a good successor art too. The main arguments against it are similar to FVM: we wanted more than 5 levels, which might have made it unviable for the breakthrough rule, but if yrsillar allows it, then this is no longer a concern. Another argument against it is that it would compete against UGM. However, UGM, while also a cold DPS art, is different enough from FSS that we should be able to find utility for both of them and there should be less of a meridian conflict, because we have little competition for arm meridians.
TRF: This is our current defense art. It got less attention than the previous two arts, but it still appeared in the narrative quite a bit and it really helped us a lot in fights. So, while not as narrative relevant as the previous two arts, it is still a decent choice in principle. As far as I know, no one really had a problem with making it a 5-level art that ends in Green 5, so there is no problem here either. However, the art does have a practical problem, because we are already intending to use SNR to replace it, as SNR is built to be equally good against Physical and Spiritual, while TRF is more built against Physical. SNR ends in G4, true, but isn't it more practical to just go for SNR+ after that instead? This is why some looked into turning TRF+ away from an armor art into a resist/sustain art.
We got this as answer to it:
So, it shouldn't be impossible (but we probably should master SES if we want to do this). This idea does have a problem: it would be directly competing with the archive art we intended to get from the archive next turn (both would be Resist arts and be G3-G5). Spending 12 AP for the creation of an art + several AP training only to make an art that does about the same as an art we already use sounds like a waste, so if we really want this, then we cannot get a resist art from the archive. Even if we start the creation in turn 10 (assuming we do get the breakthrough to G4 in turn 9), then we would only get a new resist art from turn 13-14 onwards (depending on how useful the art is at level 1).
AM: huh, what is an Argent doing here? But seriously, this art also contributed quite a bit to the narrative (sincerity and all that). However, no one really wants the argents back and we already have a new perception art that we are happy with. In addition, AM+ would likely be a G2-G4 art, which is also not what we want by the time we get to make it.
HDW: HDW is our unfortunate social perception/combat buff hybrid music art. It has a rather cool perception tech and I don't think anyone is actively against its themes, but its buffs techs never saw real application and it had little narrative contribution (not nothing, but it is by far not as prominent as the previously mentioned arts). I don't think anyone would mind making it a 5-level art, if we made it at all. We already have more than enough good social arts, so we don't need another one, but a potential HDW+ could still be turned into a full support music art (that hopefully doesn't suck) and we were just talking about wanting more support, so while I don't know anyone who would be too enthusiastic about it, HDW+ is still a valid compromise candidate.
SES: SES is our resist music art and it is for the purpose of art creation basically a worse HDW. It has even less narrative presence, Resist in the form of a music art is somewhat awkward for the narrative as Ling Qi needs to interrupt her current song to play SES and overall the theme had less support than HDW. Even those who want to make a resist art would prefer to turn TRF into one than to go for SES+.
ENM: This art has even less narrative presence than the above arts, mostly because we didn't have it particularly long yet, but it is still true. ENM also has the problem that Wind Thief does everything ENM does but better. The only advantage of ENM is that it has the Fade keyword and I guess the fact that LFWT+ENM gives more stealth than LFWT alone. The way I see it, ENM's main appeal was stronger when we still needed the successor to end in G5 mainly for those who wanted neither TRF+ nor HDW+. On a personal note, I also like the idea of a Grinning/Hidden/Dreaming Moon based stealth art much more than the current ENM theme. Especially Erebeal had some cool ideas.
We could of course also take one of the as of now untrained archive 1 arts, but those would have even less narrative presence than ENM, so I really dont think they are worth considering for this.
Another thing I want to mention is the possibility of making more than one successor: We could for example make both FVM+ and FSS+ before the competition, but we need to be aware that this is going to const quite a bit of AP to do.
And a last thing to mention: It is likely that the first selfmade successor is special, at least from the narrative pov, so we really should make sure that the first successor is something we actually want to use and we should make it early enough that it has time to shine in the story.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
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- France
Actually, this is where I think very differently. Now, I absolutely want to get the art to unlock G6 before we get to G6 bottleneck, and as such at the latest it should be capped to G5 in turn 20. This also means probably beginning training it at the latest turn 15/16 or so.
However, the tournament isn't the 'last time' we have to get arts to have narrative impacts. As said, it's turn 18, the quest ends turn 26, and the tournament is CRX's test, while Ling Qi's test was "get to no more than 5 ranks behind CRX" (in practical terms, at least rank 525 of the sect rankings. This, to me, means that like we are currently going through a art overhaul before the tournament (even beside the choices on support/dps, or social and stealth stuff, we are getting SNR/PLR/RME and maybe BKSD/UGM as main arts), we'd be going through another overhaul between turn 18 and 26, to prepare and manage the necessary steps to get the ranking we needs. Tournament alone won't get us there.
What I am saying is that for tournament, giving narrative impact to RME/SNR/PLR/UGM/BKSD/??? is fine, and then we can give narrative impacts to TRF+/FVM+/SNR+/PLR+/RME+/FSS+ for Ling Qi's actual Shenhua Test.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
PLR and RME are not on there because they end in G4, and doing successors to them is likely to not have 5 levels before G6 (also, because Naths didn't adjust for 'maybe we can have arts finishing in G6 there' wholly).
Successor cultivation arts, in this instance, would be Argent Genesis successor, and it would probably be very difficult to make and would give very little. Likewise, might not have enough levels before G6.
We probably can make successor cultivation arts, but we already have one: Songseeker Ceremony is a successor to EPC and it lasts into Green 6. I guess AG+ is still an option? We can only use 1 at a time, so I am not too sure if we really want this
i didnt mention CDE because we already got a successor for it from the archive.
RME will last into Green 4 as will PLR. I didnt mention successors to them, because they would never end in G5. yrs did say that he might allow arts that go further than G5, but we should keep it reasonable there. Allowing a 8-level art that has been trained to level 5 or 6 is very different from allowing a 5-level art that has only 1 or 2 levels
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I dont agree with pushing the successors that far back. for an art to be created after the tournament (T19 forward) to matter at all, it would need to be created in T25 at the latest. This gives us 7 turns. Creating and training ~6 arts in 7 turns is a real challenge, that basically means that we have to either reduce or stop training base cultivation in those turns. Arts created in that creation binge will also feel less special than the one successor art we create for the breakthrough, so it would be even more important for that to be the narratively most important art to be made for that.
You are right that Shenhua's Test still exists, but that does not have to be a single big event where we can show off our new build and even if we have one last battle to show the art, you cannot deny that an art created towards the end of the quest gets no screentime during the big events that happen before that.
To me, a FVM+ that we make around the halfway point of the quest and then use for the remaining half of it and during every major event, will feel a lot more significant than a FVM+ that is created close towards the end, gets rushed to the max level and gets only one possible major event (assuming that yrs wants a big final event for the end).
Edit: Sorry for the double post. Should I edit this into the previous one?
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
If it is mechanically possible to fulfill the G6 requirement by picking up a maximum-levels FVM successor and capping it out as far as we can, I think we should do it. It feels right for that art to be the springboard to our more advanced cultivation.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Creating and training 5 arts in 7 turns is basically what we can expect to be doing when we reach G6, as we'd have to be doing a lot of awesome stuff to get that rank. With the successor being mastered in T20, it gives it plenty of time to be "the first of the new wave" and get huge narrative significance, and from turn 24 on we'd be getting multiple new arts a turn.
And yes, I suspect we aren't going to be training base as much once we reach G6. It's possible that Shenhua's test will be easy mode and we can afford to spend a lot of time on base, but I suspect we'll need to be a top tier G6 with a full of successor arts in G6 to even have a chance to reach her demands, here.
Furthermore, the whole point of not creating our first successor early is that SNR/PLR/RME gets time to shine, making PLR+/RME+/SNR+ have increased narrative significance even if we only use them turn 24-26. A FVM+ being created in turn 20 and usable in turn 21 doesn't mean 'one event', either. It means that it will have 6 turns to shine. For refence, we are turn 7 now.
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DeusExBritannia
Red-White-Black-White
- Location
- Texas
So is this Ling Qi a Star Wars native, or did she get isekai'd?
- Location
- United States of America
I was going for the Isekai'd route given that she still has memories of Su Ling and Zhengui.