Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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this quest is not at the end of it (Turn 26),
As said, it's turn 18, the quest ends turn 26,


Ummm... guys and/or gals and/or enbies... this is a nitpick over some very well reasoned stuff overall, but I have to contest these particular quotes...turn 26 is Shenhua's test, but we have no certainty it will be the end of this quest. Even if it was, there will be a sequel quest and our arts will matter there, even if the mechanics change. Unless something is way more broken than the QM intended it to be or changes the way the quest is supposed to be played, arts would get transfered in a way as to preserve their awesomeness, at least based on precedence.
 
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Creating and training 5 arts in 7 turns is basically what we can expect to be doing when we reach G6, as we'd have to be doing a lot of awesome stuff to get that rank. With the successor being mastered in T20, it gives it plenty of time to be "the first of the new wave" and get huge narrative significance, and from turn 24 on we'd be getting multiple new arts a turn.

And yes, I suspect we aren't going to be training base as much once we reach G6. It's possible that Shenhua's test will be easy mode and we can afford to spend a lot of time on base, but I suspect we'll need to be a top tier G6 with a full of successor arts in G6 to even have a chance to reach her demands, here.

Furthermore, the whole point of not creating our first successor early is that SNR/PLR/RME gets time to shine, making PLR+/RME+/SNR+ have increased narrative significance even if we only use them turn 24-26. A FVM+ being created in turn 20 and usable in turn 21 doesn't mean 'one event', either. It means that it will have 6 turns to shine. For refence, we are turn 7 now.
Ummm... guys and/or gals and/or enbies... this is a nitpick over some very well reasoned stuff overall, but I have to contest these particular quotes...turn 26 is Shenhua's test, but we have no certainty it will be the end of this quest. Even if it was, there will be a sequel quest and our arts will matter there, even if the mechanics change. Unless something is way more broken than the QM intended it to be or changes the way the quest is supposed to be played, arts would get transfered in a way as to preserve their awesomeness, at least based on precedence.

I admit that it is likely that we will have to give up some some base training after the tournament one way or another, yeah. This still leaves the argument that a FVM+ and to a slightly lesser degree FSS+ created that late is, well, too late for me. I dont want to wait ~10-12 turns (slightly less than 2 years irl at the current pacing) before we can get back into those narratives and I still want those arts for the war and the competition, so that they can shine there. I also think that we have seen that arts that grew with us over many turns had a much stronger narrative than those we were able rush in 1 or 2 turns.

Re: RME/SNR/PLR:
Neither RME nor SNR overlap with FVM, so they should still be able to get narrative focus with or without FVM. PLR does have some overlap, but it also has parts that wouldnt compete against FVM (like the JT buff or the EDD dodge) and we tend to use those more than the crowd control feature.

Regarding your comment, storryeater:
you are of course correct, there is likely to be another quest after this one. We would also still be in Green 6, so it should be possible for us to see more of those arts.
However, I dont want for the FVM narrative to stop for that long and I also want to see how Ling Qi and Hanyi take the songs Zeqing taught them and then how they build something that belongs to them out of it (FSS+). I want to see both of this and I want the arts themself to be as meaningful to us as possible and that means making them early.

We have seen what happens when we take arts up that we can binge in one or two turns: they get mentioned once or twice and then nothing more. I would be very dissapointed if that happened to either FVM+ or FSS+.
 
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I'm not arguing that Ling Qi should have an advantage against barbarians.
I'm pointing out that Ling Qi was something they were not expecting, therefore not prepared for in terms of already active buffs, talismans, potentially even weapons or warriors brought along.

Yet, even caught pants down tactically speaking, they could retreat with minimal losses because even while Ling Qi can fly, the barbarians are more used to it and had group buffs to aid exactly this kind of environment, and had Ling Qi chased them, she might have ended up in quite a bad spot.
Had the barbarian war party come in expecting a flyer, Ling Qi might have lost, or even if she won, that victory could have been very, very expensive.
Again, Ling Qi showed herself, and then threw up 3-4-ish techniques on her way over to the barbarians. The barbarians instantly reacted to her presence and started reorganizing their formations, so they also must have instantly reacted with any appropriate airborne enemy-countering buffs. If Ling Qi had time to spool up her techniques, then the much more numerous enemy that immediately responded can be reasonably expected to have done the same. The talismans angle is silly, as I pointed out before. For weapons, they use bows, and they're not going to have one bow for shooting targets on the ground and one bow for shooting targets in the air. Not even Imperials are portrayed as having that, and our entire thing is having the superior resource and crafting base.

I simply disagree that the surprise was the advantage that is being claimed.

A dispel would have been a good opportunity to show off our new Resist talisman. It might have been a better one than that scene against the assassin where we kind of used it more as a dispel, so yeah I can agree to that such a scene would have been cool.
As for their retaliation: Ling Qi did not quite fight like a cloud barbarian opponent, who I assume would have kept his distance, which would result in both sides shooting at each other. And I think we had some mention about the bardbarian being roughly at our age? If so, I can believe that this group is in fact not as practiced and experienced as veterans would have been.
That's why I pointed out they fight spirits and beasts as well. The only ones who seriously threaten them would be flying types. Which means they must be familiar with tactics to counter strong close-range preferenced fliers.

So to the first: How long do you think the Snarl has been growing? Because I think it's been a long time coming, like closer to start of Threads time coming.

For the second: Nah, the Barb's favored terrain is Air-to-Ground combat against slow or slower small numbers (or individuals) that are individually stronger than them. Particularly when the targets weren't prepared for numbers. Air-to-air with same speed that is prepared and specialized against mass tactics isn't something they were ready to fight, but *could* once we were visible and planned for. However, the lion's share of their yellows were killing that one green noble and the Bardbarian pushed us off and then sounded a retreat because they'd succeeded in bloodying the nose of the dragon.

We had elements of Surprise, being an Unknown, being specced against mass tactics, nearly negating their normal advantage of speed, equalizing on the ability to Fly, showing the power to severely maim green 3-ish enemy barbs. We would have struggled if they mustered a proper assault on us, but thankfully they had already succeeded in their goal and we were *just* troublesome enough (along with Shen Hu) that they decided to simply sound general retreat before the Sect could muster a response. They had already won, all we did was reduce the damage taken.

I agree with the third point, though not that they aren't legends. Okay, Hanyi and Six are just real strong/unique but Zhengui is a powerhouse. I would say the spirits are 100% what allowed us to fight the BINO fight as well as we did. A ton of resources had to be allocated to him and Zhengui literally ate one of the spirits. Hanyi only got a few here and there but she helped trim down the yellows. Six is also our pillar of strength because we use her so much all the time <3 <3 <3

anyway love u abeo <3 u a good wrongvoter
You're misremembering or misunderstanding several details of the event and setting, again, but I give up.
 
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Personally I strongly support cutting all base cultivation actions the moment we hit the last stage likely before Rank Deadline.

More/better Arts are just infinitely more important at that point than a G7/8 feather in our cap that we won't have time to cultivate any arts up to.
 
That's why I pointed out they fight spirits and beasts as well. The only ones who seriously threaten them would be flying types. Which means they must be familiar with tactics to counter strong close-range preferenced fliers.


You're misremembering or misunderstanding several details of the event and setting, again, but I give up.
Speculation:
I mean. No? Traditional setting and understanding would say that swords can't parry the concept of music, but here we are. Any spirit that they'd be fighting-in-force like this would be a serious threat regardless of flight. In fact, I would suggest that they would intentionally avoid combat with enemy air as much as possible since there's no reason to take risks unless necessary. It's the same reason Cats no longer specialize in fighting and killing Rats in New York. It's too much of a threat, they're too big and smart and the cat can go elsewhere. So they do. Cats aren't nature's ratcatchers anymore, which is why we tried to breed little terrier breeds to do it. Dogs have the connections and social bonds that would have them do the rat-killing work even at risk. Cats generally prefer the freedom to pick their own battles. I see no reason for a culture that doesn't even need permanent settlements to indulge in anti-air combat work outside of sport. If it's peer it's generally not worth the effort in a survivalist context, if it's strong you just run, and if it's weak you're not really practicing anti-air against peers-or-stronger you're probably just reusing Air-to-ground techniques to hit the weak lil wings for foods. I'd be surprised if they regularly hunted flying game of equal strength to both ourselves and the dying-harried noble as well as the "tying up many reds n yellows" town garrison. Even if we looked alone, their forces were not all available to attack us without additional setup time.

When your strengths are speed and maneuverability, you get to pick and choose your battles. If you pick and choose your battles and live in a survival-oriented nomadic culture you don't take pointless risks except for sport or ritual. Typical sustenance-runs should be against slow targets and non-flying targets, especially the non-stealth kind. No reason to stand and fight when there's no land to protect haha. Let specific individuals (the scout kites) deal with perception and communication, only need one person to spot something dangerous to alert the whole camp about it.

I'll take the critique about the power-creep tho. It's possible that YRS is intending a setting that's different than the one I'm seeing. But as far as I know the individual has supreme power and although numbers and peers are both good ways to counteract an individual there are ways to counter numbers (which we have) and Peers are determined by more than cultivation, such as quality of arts, synergy of arts, spirits, raw stat grind, rounded-ness, and rate of improvement. This is why our for-sure true peer is Ji-Rong and nobody else *quite* matches up but more or less is a peer~ sorta. The Ducals are on another level, but we haven't seen a Count (that's the rank below right?) of significance in a long while and certainly not anyone that improves as fast as we do. The friends we came in with that are also sprinting upwards are roughly peers but our ability to multi-tool, fly and outspeed everyone is nasty. There's a reason Number None gated flight behind end-game. It's a ridiculous combat boost and allows totally different conceptions of battlefield dynamics. 3d from 2d

what I'm saying is that if our build was grounded we'd be closer to Count and peer-to-friends than closer to Ducal Bullshit flying around earlier than supposed to be and absolutely smashing preconceptions of power due to "Flight OP". This is also part of why I feel that the Barbs have a society that is generally very pragmatic in terms of risk, and why our charge succeeded outside of "luck". Flight means you can pick and choose fights, and simply avoid challenges when inconvenient or too risky. Wind is free to do as it pleases, and if it isn't happy getting cut to pieces it can move on. No need to crack open a problem when you can go around or weave through.

We're a problem in the siege, a problem they can deal with and successfully mitigated the impact of. They could have dealt with us but a lot of their resources are being tied up killing the local noble green, and even if they succeed in wounding us we can retreat to Shen Hu hardpoint and that would be too tough to crack in a short timeframe (before expected sect help compromises everyone's safety). Honestly, it might have read like we were hugely heroic and successful but we didn't *succeed* so much as *help patch someone else's failure*. We weren't given a gold star or anything for our extra actions, just a verbal acknowledgement that we did well.

Those barbs 100% could have killed us, even with multiple factors tying up various parts of their assault. However, they'd already succeeded and the cost was higher for potentially 0 extra reward. No dice. Just leave
 
The barbarians instantly reacted to her presence and started reorganizing their formations, so they also must have instantly reacted with any appropriate airborne enemy-countering buffs. If Ling Qi had time to spool up her techniques, then the much more numerous enemy that immediately responded can be reasonably expected to have done the same.
Can't spool up arts you have sideboarded in combat. You need at least a few minutes of peace even if they were a full elemental match.

If they had loaded their ground pound suites they wouldn't have their best AA unless it was also their best general purpose art
 
Can't spool up arts you have sideboarded in combat. You need at least a few minutes of peace even if they were a full elemental match.

If they had loaded their ground pound suites they wouldn't have their best AA unless it was also their best general purpose art
Firstly, if you have, say, multiple archery arts then you want all of them equipped at once to stack bonuses. Secondly, the vast majority of cultivators can barely spend the time to get a full art suite up, let alone spend time on sideboarding. And those that could spend the time on sideboarding are generally focused on pushing their strength up, so they're not going to waste time either.
 
Firstly, if you have, say, multiple archery arts then you want all of them equipped at once to stack bonuses. Secondly, the vast majority of cultivators can barely spend the time to get a full art suite up, let alone spend time on sideboarding. And those that could spend the time on sideboarding are generally focused on pushing their strength up, so they're not going to waste time either.
And if you have more arts than you can equip at the same time?
 
Alright, I'll design an archery art for cloud nomads:

Howling Zephyr Art
  1. Zephyr Shot: an arrow - BUT WITH WIND POWER
  2. Headwind Arrow: basically Against the Wind or something to slow and debuff
  3. Tornado Shot: an arrow that EXPLODES WITH WIND
  4. Howling Zephyr Shot: a wind arrow - BUT IT'S HOMING
There, all bases pretty much covered with an FSA equivalent.
 
Firstly, if you have, say, multiple archery arts then you want all of them equipped at once to stack bonuses. Secondly, the vast majority of cultivators can barely spend the time to get a full art suite up, let alone spend time on sideboarding. And those that could spend the time on sideboarding are generally focused on pushing their strength up, so they're not going to waste time either.
Yeah, side-boarding is really only a thing if you are bottlenecked and hyper rich. Bottlenecked, because very few people will prioritise tertiary arts over base, and opening meridians is faster than learning the sideboard arts themselves. Hyper-rich, because people just don't have that many arts available. Sure, old noble families might. But all the yellow barbarians around there? They would be lucky to have 4 arts. The problem isn't meridians for them.

Anyway, as someone wise said: everything can be explained if we assume that Ling Qi's effective rank is 2 or so stage higher than her actual stage. It makes sense too. She has a /lot/ of arts, including 5 very high quality ones, she already has the insights necessary for Green 5, and she has much higher stat/skill than would be usual for her stage.

In that sense, she is more of the mid boss that a team take on, and then retreat from because they don't want casualties.
 
HDW: HDW is our unfortunate social perception/combat buff hybrid music art. It has a rather cool perception tech and I don't think anyone is actively against its themes,
I'm against HDW's themes not being in line with our whole schtick. Just speaking up on this part because 1) I really like the arts that are thematically and narratively appropriate for LQ and 2) it seems some people are trying to get a different conversation going other than the debate that's been going on in the thread for...a while now.
 
Sideboards are a lie that the ducals made up to trick the lower classes into hobbling themselves.

Tell your friends.
 
Yeah, side-boarding is really only a thing if you are bottlenecked and hyper rich. Bottlenecked, because very few people will prioritise tertiary arts over base, and opening meridians is faster than learning the sideboard arts themselves. Hyper-rich, because people just don't have that many arts available. Sure, old noble families might. But all the yellow barbarians around there? They would be lucky to have 4 arts. The problem isn't meridians for them.
And if you don't have quantum meridians, sideboarding just doesn't really work.

Like, let's look out our sideboard case that we're gonna get: MoSS and MSS. These are two utility arts which, happily, use the same meridians and which have completely different use cases. We can switch them out happily because we just don't need them both at the same time.

Most arts, however, are not so convenient. You won't be able to swap arts out on a one to one basis. Instead, you'll need to play meridian tetris and swap out entire art configurations. This means changing multiple arts, unless you want to end up with holes - which are a really bad thing in your combat suite. Moreover, you generally want to be stacking all your important bonuses as much as possible, especially for combat. This means that all your related arts - which may have more chance of using the same meridians - will be exactly the ones you want to be stacking to maximise your power.

Basically, sideboarding is a myth.
 
Eh, only because our progression is so fast theres no point sideboarding, it'd all be obsolete before you even finish a sideboard

Sideboards are more appropriate for a yellow who's been Yellow for the last 30 years and expects to stay there for another 30.

You know, most people who aren't growing lightning fast in base cultivation but do have a long lineage generating arts for every niche
 
How much time/effort does it take to open meridians for skills, vs learning arts?
Sure it might be that the barbarians have one single art that will provide every skill they need, be it for air to ground, or air to air fight.
But i don't think it is that unreasonable that they would have dedicated air to ground and air to air arts that will be more limited, but more effective in the intended area.

And, as already said, these were youths, they might not have mastered all the buffs needed to just switch buffs on the fly.
Maybe they would need time for the overlaid group buffs, or specific formation to get it started, or both.
And more experienced cultivators would have learned better arts that don't have that weakness, but requires yellow or green to learn.
 
So in other words, someone who isn't exactly cultivating a lot?

And thus would be unlikely to be doing a lot of art cultivation either?

No? Most people don't get an endless cascade of breakthroughs and insights. Most people need to do a job for survival.

Cultivating arts and meridians help that, but raising base cultivation takes very long to pay out anything if your talent and drug supply isn't insane
 
No? Most people don't get an endless cascade of breakthroughs and insights. Most people need to do a job for survival.

Cultivating arts and meridians help that, but raising base cultivation takes very long to pay out anything if your talent and drug supply isn't insane
And don't have a friendly cyan ice spirit happy to teach you, and 3 great spirits as patrons.
Or possibly 3/8ths (6/8ths? haow many phases did moon have?) of a great spirit, never really sure how the moon phases and moon as a whole work.
 
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Do keep in mind the Reds are their youths getting blooded and experienced to initiate to binding their spirit beast at Yellow. They aren't grunt troops, they're the future.
A big difference between the cloud tribe and imperials is that they disown and abandoned those without talent. They don't really have career reds like we do in the empire. There red are those that haven't become yellows yet. If they don't progress fast enough they get left behind.
 
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