- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
You are right, I disagree. Ling Qi's strategy throughout the arc was influenced by outside circumstances and noone thinks there was a problem there. Not even Zhengui, who was the one to bring it up. No, the choice which made it clear that even without outside influence Ling Qi prefers to do things herself, instead of trusting others to meaningfully back her up was the assassin incident. Which was a left to a vote.
So no, I don't think that narrative flow was a mess there. Ling Qi had opportunities to play as a part of the team, she just never did.
To clarify, the basic distillation of my critique is this:
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During the event, all the cooperative options required costly trade-offs, while the solo options did not. Working with others required sacrifice, resulted in more losses, even took more chances. Working alone didn't. Circumstances like these compromise our ability to have narratives of cooperation, because they would be played with stacked decks compared to the alternative.
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@yrsillar was in control of the external circumstances, so appealing to them doesn't dispel the issues. The value/necessity of cooperation is supposed to be one of the setting premises, and it has direct relevance to our character's Way. Designing encounters to effectively punish attempts at cooperation is counterproductive to these. There are tensions inherent in the system in terms of rising scarcity of peers moving up the pyramid of cultivation, but we're not there yet, and it wasn't the case or cause in the event. WoG is a cultivator with support has a strong advantage against a peer without, that the quality of that support is a relevant factor. We're not seeing that; Ling Qi spanked a peer, both his Green subordinates, ten times that in Yellows, despite the opposition's Support focus, alone on their favored terrain, and without using her dedicated anti-numbers defence tech or having to pop Resist techs, meaning the enemy very much simply rolled over.
If cooperation had that kind of fiat favor we'd have seen it chosen a lot more, but outcomes and event structures have made it clear they would not and could not have enjoyed the same charity of result.
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Eh, its more that Ling Qi had invested in relatively teamfight unfriendly skills and options. Extreme mobility and wide area effect shut downs means that her ideal fight is alone against a horde.
Nothing to do with the narrative, our skillset and our preferred philosophy don't click, since its easier to build DPS and Defense than effective teamfight when our teammates are either variable per fight(Sect Forces) or else not shaped for the same kind of fight(Zhengui is too slow, Hanyi is too fragile)
If theres anything to 'blame' its getting SCS and FSS over more team-friendly options. That's shaped how we fight more than almost everything else combined.
Well, and the flying gown, since none of our peers fly.
Nothing to do with the narrative, our skillset and our preferred philosophy don't click, since its easier to build DPS and Defense than effective teamfight when our teammates are either variable per fight(Sect Forces) or else not shaped for the same kind of fight(Zhengui is too slow, Hanyi is too fragile)
If theres anything to 'blame' its getting SCS and FSS over more team-friendly options. That's shaped how we fight more than almost everything else combined.
Well, and the flying gown, since none of our peers fly.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
True. But sometimes fighing as a team is objectively worse, then going and doing something alone. I see a lot of reasons why this would be one of those times and very little why this shouldn't be.
Literally none of Ling Qi's AoE effects impair allies anymore. Even FVM was recently shown having its IFF issues handwaved out of relevance, not even depicted as requiring the on-paper qi cost for exemption. There's nothing unfriendly about her abilities. The cooperative vote option at the time was aggressive perimeter defense and enemy herding, which in every way foundationally leverages extreme mobility and wide area effects. The most frustrating thing about these issues is, no offense, rewriting history like this to justify them.
In terms of tactical ability, we weren't too weak in one or the other tactic. The issue was everything else about the situation was biased against defense. Uncertain peril across the war theater was bias against taking a slower approach, and our second most valuable ally on the same battlefield was better helped by the solo option. Things were badly skewed in context, not ability.
I definitely agree the flying gown has been a problem, though. It's weird that we even got it in the first place. We weren't yet a vassal, and we're apparently the only person out of the council + GG to get a flying gown? Despite the absolute status, privilege, and prestige of being a flying 3rd realm? With our low social status? It's crazy. Shouldn't have got flight before the Cai thread got added, at the earliest, or the rest of the council should have.
The players deliberately chose village defense so we could play defense, especially with Zhengui. It's fine and even good to betray expectations when running a story, but when that expectation is also one of the core conceits of the setting and its themes, you have to be really careful. And not do it all the time.
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deadcrystal
Slaaneshi Cultist
- Location
- The Warp
The whole event did rather reveal that, on the other hand, Zhengui is fantastic as part of a team fight. What with building a massive defensive wall of roots that both attacked enemies and served as a rampart that defenders could stand on and shoot from. Plus his team buffs and healing.
Truly Zhengui is the true Imperial Hero.
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
*CLANG INTENSIFIES*
Good good he's learning the Way of Guts.
He just needs to gradually upscale his blade for MAXIMUM CLANG and hone his will to defy fate and survive as long as possible
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
*shrugs* at least it's not the fucking Golden Age arc AGAIN.
NoxOfUmbra
Shadow of the night
- Location
- Colombia, South América
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Well, I may be wrong but I really don't see where the problem really is. If my memory is correct, back in Forge when Ling Qi just break through Yellow there was a choice in which it was decided that Ling Qi would not let any weight pull her down, she will go up, be strong enough to carry her chains with her. Isn't this the same case? Ling Qi just need to be strong enough to not need to risk herself in order to protect those dear to her. I admit that there should be more opportunity to fight with others and that maybe it's also necessary to have an AOE support only art but I don't think that the way that Ling Qi pursue will handicap her in a fight, like rebuild the entire build would do (I don't know if I am getting that right or not). Just my opinion, I could be wrong and that would be fine, just have in mind this.
On another note, have you heard the ending of Fate Zero "Manten", the english lyrics made me think that it really fits in the skillset of Ling Qi, is there a way to make it an art or something?
On another note, have you heard the ending of Fate Zero "Manten", the english lyrics made me think that it really fits in the skillset of Ling Qi, is there a way to make it an art or something?
Yeah. In many ways, it feel like we've been able to have our cake and eat it too. Like, spending ap/xp on stealth instead of being able to dump-stat it should give us utility but put at at a disadvantage in a straight fight compared to people who can just dump-stat that. Focusing on massive aoe CC and support should put us at a disadvantage against peers who have for direct solo combat builds. One of the the things that was nice about the Ji Rong fight was that it actually felt like he had a build advantage on us, but we managed to turn things around due to clever tactics that exploited a weak point of his.
But, when we keep protag-ing all over other Greens regardless, there's not much incentive to get help. And when, as you say, we can basically single-handedly fight a peer + 2 other greens + a couple dozen yellows with strong support buffs then, well, it's hard to say that support is doing much. We weren't using our abilities to tip the odds in our side's favor in the engagement. We weren't in a position where, idk, our build allows us to tie up all the minions but we get driven back by the greens, and need our allies to counter that. Instead we just basically came out on top despite everything. It makes it pretty hard to take the "lower realms with good organisation and support can matter" ideas that are supposed to be true in the setting work, because it kinda feels like the only thing that allowed them to be useful for the nomads was that their mobility meant that we couldn't get enough people in our field at the same time to make it worth nuking them all. Right now though it kinda feels like "cooperation" and "numbers" are mostly relevant in terms of the fact that one person can't be everywhere at once.
(Incidentally, this is kinda a problem with those massive AoE attacks that we and Renxiang and Xiulan can throw out. Like, could an imperial division use a metaphorical shield wall tech and actually stop a B rank explosion from us? Because if not, I find it hard to see how they can do much?)
DangerKitty
shoddy writter
- Location
- lala land
I wasnt intending to spark this big debate about the story. I caught up in the story just a lil before the war started so i got to binge forge and threads up to there. I was originally interested in the story because of the idea of a support based cultivator cus most other stories in this vein go with assasin or sometimes mage. Tbh i didnt really notice the change in build as i was binging because i got absorbed in yrsillars writing quality and character development.
Its just recently what with the whole way conflict and choosing our spirits arts that i realized that the support centered MC i started reading this series for isnt a support girl anymore. I think its fine for characters to change, i just spoke out because i wanted ling qi to retain at least some elements of the support based design she was founded on. Regardless of what she becomes though, shes still our little ice wraith though
Its just recently what with the whole way conflict and choosing our spirits arts that i realized that the support centered MC i started reading this series for isnt a support girl anymore. I think its fine for characters to change, i just spoke out because i wanted ling qi to retain at least some elements of the support based design she was founded on. Regardless of what she becomes though, shes still our little ice wraith though
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
- Pronouns
- They/Them
IIRC, I think the main issue that sparked this whole departure from the original support build idea was the "root and wings" vote. It specifically described that LQ would have to get 'strong enough to carry everyone' or something to that effect, and that's been pretty much the status quo since then.
In my honest opinion, that was the absolute worst option that could've been voted for, and we're starting to feel it now.
In my honest opinion, that was the absolute worst option that could've been voted for, and we're starting to feel it now.
If we have a 25 solders at late yellow with C in defense with a decent defense technique they should have in the order of SS defense.
With hundreds of soldiers one can easily reach UU.
So it should be doable to have a units of yellows that are too tough to break by a single green.
TRF at yellow gave gives 4 dice to physical defense to allies within 80m, at green it still gave that. When translated to Forge of Destiny it became +10 bonus to Physical Armor of the user and all allies within Close range.
C-1Rank(green vs Yellow) = D. D -40(realm)+10*25 = D210 = SS10.
Now TRF is a top level technique and one would need techniques for both Physical and Spiritual attacks, but it should be doable.
C-1Rank(green vs Yellow) = D. D -40(realm)+10*25 = D210 = SS10.
Now TRF is a top level technique and one would need techniques for both Physical and Spiritual attacks, but it should be doable.
- Location
- The Space Between
I appreciate the effort-post by AbeoLogos, and would like to posit the following:
Is it possible to characterize all of the dissonance between supporting and soloing as falling under the Snarl that we have?
I would also like to posit:
We're basically a Ducal monster. It isn't us "protagging" when we favored-terrain slaughter a ton of bandits but relatively struggle against coordinated Bai Yellow Archers. Then we had Zhengui Hanyi and Six to help us crush those bastards. We survived the BINO alpha strike, and would have lost but a second Ducal Monster crested the hill and made them all irrelevant.
then against the Barbs, any large-numbers strategy is actually our favored-terrain so we dunk on them. In fact, I was frustrated by the amount of damage and survival they got away with due to their massive support networks. We actually lost btw. Large damage to village infrastructure in multiple villages as well as the death of many greens or yellows that are harder to replace due to size-of-territory than the one cohesive barb ball that could show up anywhere.
Sure we alpha-striked some poor bastard, but we're just sub-ducal tier. "Greens" are not peers. Ducals are slightly above us, but our peers are actually very low in number because we're not ducal peer nor really count peer. We're a badass with 3 badasses in her dantian. Ultra legendary Xuan Wu, daughter of a Cyan Yuki Ona, cousin from Grandma Dreamer. Seriously, remember how hard Yellow Zhengui Bodied Dhart? he's a HUGE reason why these fights are stomps. Alone we're not ducal tier, but I think when we work on our teamwork with our legends we'll be low-peer of Ducal. Which is impressive as hell.
All of this stuff is why I believe the arc didn't have dissonance even if it was structured in a way that prioritized splitting up. Our new teamwork is going to require us to cover broad areas *with our squad* you know? We're gonna need to find a way for others to benefit from our personal power specialties.
This is where Erebeal's Pocket Dimension stuff comes into play. If we can act as a stealth-transport-overwatch role, it allows us to be both a coordinating/logistics Tac Support and a Direct Intervention Operational Support. This is the ideal role in my opinion, because it is staying true to the support role without becoming a support class in a death world. IE someone without agency or tactical freedom.
Honestly I believe the problem is less how the arc was set up and more that the lack of duels means we lost the ability to have context for what "peers" are supposed to look like. We laughed our way through the tournament up til Ji Rong, and there we used clever tactics and surprise to beat him. We lose to Ducals but that's it, Ji Rong is one of our only "peers" that we know of since the ducals are slightly up on us.
Seriously. Is Shen Hu supposed to be a peer? The dude is a full year older than us and we're kinda equals. That will matter less as cultivation rises but we gotta wait to see if he keeps up.
Han Jian seemed peer until he wasn't lol. Xiulan is peer. Suyin is probably peer-slightly-under competing on production focus. I would be very happy if Su Ling was peer post-crit-breakthrough. GG is peer-ish.
Anyway, we have very strong anti-mook and anti-lone tools. Our worst case is actually fighting like, organized high yellows. nobody that we can simply dismiss but nobody too critical to their strategy. Hell, Bino had us beat with just himself and his archers if CRX hadn't doubled the amount of near-ducal green fighters in the area
Is it possible to characterize all of the dissonance between supporting and soloing as falling under the Snarl that we have?
I would also like to posit:
We're basically a Ducal monster. It isn't us "protagging" when we favored-terrain slaughter a ton of bandits but relatively struggle against coordinated Bai Yellow Archers. Then we had Zhengui Hanyi and Six to help us crush those bastards. We survived the BINO alpha strike, and would have lost but a second Ducal Monster crested the hill and made them all irrelevant.
then against the Barbs, any large-numbers strategy is actually our favored-terrain so we dunk on them. In fact, I was frustrated by the amount of damage and survival they got away with due to their massive support networks. We actually lost btw. Large damage to village infrastructure in multiple villages as well as the death of many greens or yellows that are harder to replace due to size-of-territory than the one cohesive barb ball that could show up anywhere.
Sure we alpha-striked some poor bastard, but we're just sub-ducal tier. "Greens" are not peers. Ducals are slightly above us, but our peers are actually very low in number because we're not ducal peer nor really count peer. We're a badass with 3 badasses in her dantian. Ultra legendary Xuan Wu, daughter of a Cyan Yuki Ona, cousin from Grandma Dreamer. Seriously, remember how hard Yellow Zhengui Bodied Dhart? he's a HUGE reason why these fights are stomps. Alone we're not ducal tier, but I think when we work on our teamwork with our legends we'll be low-peer of Ducal. Which is impressive as hell.
All of this stuff is why I believe the arc didn't have dissonance even if it was structured in a way that prioritized splitting up. Our new teamwork is going to require us to cover broad areas *with our squad* you know? We're gonna need to find a way for others to benefit from our personal power specialties.
This is where Erebeal's Pocket Dimension stuff comes into play. If we can act as a stealth-transport-overwatch role, it allows us to be both a coordinating/logistics Tac Support and a Direct Intervention Operational Support. This is the ideal role in my opinion, because it is staying true to the support role without becoming a support class in a death world. IE someone without agency or tactical freedom.
Honestly I believe the problem is less how the arc was set up and more that the lack of duels means we lost the ability to have context for what "peers" are supposed to look like. We laughed our way through the tournament up til Ji Rong, and there we used clever tactics and surprise to beat him. We lose to Ducals but that's it, Ji Rong is one of our only "peers" that we know of since the ducals are slightly up on us.
Seriously. Is Shen Hu supposed to be a peer? The dude is a full year older than us and we're kinda equals. That will matter less as cultivation rises but we gotta wait to see if he keeps up.
Han Jian seemed peer until he wasn't lol. Xiulan is peer. Suyin is probably peer-slightly-under competing on production focus. I would be very happy if Su Ling was peer post-crit-breakthrough. GG is peer-ish.
Anyway, we have very strong anti-mook and anti-lone tools. Our worst case is actually fighting like, organized high yellows. nobody that we can simply dismiss but nobody too critical to their strategy. Hell, Bino had us beat with just himself and his archers if CRX hadn't doubled the amount of near-ducal green fighters in the area
Oh yes, Zhengui was a teamfight GOD, right there.
He singlefootedly changed the front from "overrun and rout" into "Not One Inch Further". The lesser spirits couldn't do shit to him, and anything they did to the troops past his fortifications got undone by his healing and then THEY get undone as he turns the fortification into IFF-enabled chainsaws, WHILE he duels the enemy Greens with Xiulan providing the DPS.
His ability to take dual actions was core to that. He could simultaneously duel and support, and as long as he was rooted he had the fuel tank to keep doing both.
I think that would be an overstatement. It would be correct to say that the conflict between support and solo actions, with the former being disfavored heavily for a variety of reasons, generated the underlying issues that came to a head to trigger the Snarl, though.
This section has several factual errors and draws correlations which don't add up. Barbarians themselves favor large-number cooperative synergy in the air, so it's erroneous to claim the circumstances of the engagement as our favored terrain. It was their favored terrain too, and their claim is stronger because it's their entire lifestyle, the literal sole thing they're optimized to do. The collateral damage has nothing to do with our bizarrely successful charge against them, and in the context of the overall situation, recklessly charging them definitely saved the most lives overall, so complaining about the licks they got in is silly. There was an enemy barbarian with approximately equal cultivation to our own, but backed up by 2 greens and something like 2 dozen yellows, plus all their mounts, while being an apparent support focus; if that's not a 'peer', or better, then the term has no meaning. Complaining about a lack of duels to keep the fear alive in us is silly when we fought what should have been far more disadvantageous for us: mass combat against a supported support specialist while on our own.
Besides that, our spirits are not that impressive. Hanyi's ability to contribute much at the pace our encounters have run is limited, and Zhengui only just now filled out his kit to properly force people to not walk around him. A kit we've yet to actually fight besides. Our spirits were a moderate distraction against the bandits, but we'd have done fine without them. Zhengui did not "body" Dharitri: he was hard for her to damage because her stuff relies on grapples, and we cast Thousand Rings Unbreaking which gave him immunity. Zhengui wasn't even present for the air chase, so he's irrelevant there, and Hanyi's contribution was again minor. Maybe if we'd picked LWM before it'd be different, since she keeps using it and only tagging 1 person because that's the most it can do, but as it is her input's been limited.
Our spirits should be our balance-tipping pocket advantage, I agree, but they haven't been.
- Location
- Finland
Well the barbarian horde may have been optimized for group tactics, but they were not optimized for air to air combat at that level.
They did not expect us, but even so they managed to run away with most of their reds because of those group buffs they had going, when usually those reds should have been toast.
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Also, we probably would have done lot worse if we had decided to chase them instead of just forcing them to retreat from their target.
They did not expect us, but even so they managed to run away with most of their reds because of those group buffs they had going, when usually those reds should have been toast.
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Also, we probably would have done lot worse if we had decided to chase them instead of just forcing them to retreat from their target.
The two main threats Cloud Nomad tribes face in the Wall is other tribes and flying spirits or spirit beasts. Air to air combat should definitely be within their prime specialties. Ling Qi's approach didn't contain any special prowess, there's no reason they should have struggled in particular against her.
I think its more that RIGHT THERE they weren't expecting air to air combat, because everyone knows Imperials are dumb ground pounders until they hit Cyan.
So they suffered tactical surprise, but were not especially vulnerable strategically.
- Location
- Finland
And if they had expected a flyer, they probably would have prepared and optimized their gear and buffs against a flying enemy.
They were expecting to raid a settlement with light defenses and no flight capable defenders.
We were an unwelcome surprise, a powerful enemy, specked to fight solo against huge numbers of weaker enemies, that can fly.
Outside of a cyan, we were quite possible the worst kind of surprise they could get.
And they managed to extract with only minimal casualties.
Now, if they had come expecting us, they probably would have different buffs active, possible different weapons, maybe even completely different people, in their group so they can effectively attack us.
But as it was, they decided to retreat and not potentially lose several lower rank cultivators.
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Do keep in mind the Reds are their youths getting blooded and experienced to initiate to binding their spirit beast at Yellow. They aren't grunt troops, they're the future.