Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Ling qi started out as a support type cultivator but shes more of a kite AOE mage now. Maybe our family oriented way can give us more of our support role again
I would argue that this development is actually one of the drivers of the tensions causing our current problems. While we may have started as support focused, and continue to build a support-y Domain, our actual build has increasingly been one that supports us being able to do everything ourselves. To run around on our own, and be able to fight all the dudes without any help.

This strong element of self-reliance means that we just don't really work with other people or really fully use our support arts - which increasingly fall by the wayside.

Being more provacative, I would personally favor reorienting our build more towards support, and deprioritising DPS arts. Like, this will annoy some people, but I would totally favor dropping UGM in favor of something more AC/Coldstar-like (though it would have to be music ofc. Maybe dance).
 
I would argue that this development is actually one of the drivers of the tensions causing our current problems. While we may have started as support focused, and continue to build a support-y Domain, our actual build has increasingly been one that supports us being able to do everything ourselves. To run around on our own, and be able to fight all the dudes without any help.

This strong element of self-reliance means that we just don't really work with other people or really fully use our support arts - which increasingly fall by the wayside.

Being more provacative, I would personally favor reorienting our build more towards support, and deprioritising DPS arts. Like, this will annoy some people, but I would totally favor dropping UGM in favor of something more AC/Coldstar-like (though it would have to be music ofc. Maybe dance).
I don't think the way to reconcile "I am individually strong" with "it's ok to support and be supported by others" is to cripple our personal strength.

More support options (that don't suck, looking at you HDW) would be nice though.
 
Mmm, in terms of other things I'd put on my wishlist for reorientation, I'd go with:
  1. Slightly TRF-y Resist + group regen + cleanse - "Dance of Spring"?​
  2. Grinning/hidden/dreaming moon related spatial pocket art for group stealth/movement utility and stealing all the things​
More support options (that don't suck, looking at you HDW) would be nice though.
Heart + Spine arts too strong :(
 
I also agree that with the promise to Zhengui and Hanyi that we'll be involving them more in our strategies and tactics this would be a good time to pivot more towards support arts. In that vein, I'm going to throw my hat in the ring for an art that previously didn't make the cut because it lacked the needed oomph, but could do some work in a supporting role as part of our build. That art is "Evanescent Anthem of the Night Parade" (EANP).

Now... there are serious and significant problems with EANP. For one, it starts off as a Green 1 art that only reaches to Green 3. We're already at Green 3 and are working our way steadily towards Green 4. This poses a problem for EANP because ideally, we would want to cultivate arts that will have a lasting impact rather than becoming obsolete in a couple of months. Further compounding on this problem is that EANP seems to summon constructs... which are at least a rank lower than the level of the art. Ultimately this likely means that if we are Green 4 the constructs created by EANP would only be Green 2. If we are expecting to fight Green 4 or 5 beasts/opponents, having Green 2 minions... likely won't have much of an impact by themselves.

Now for some good news. It is a darkness art which means that it could slot into the Darkness month coming up without mucking things up, and while the minions we can see aren't too impressive on their own, there are some nice synergies with Hanyi specifically. The pipers can provide some consistent enhancement to the potency of our own musical arts as well as to the potency of our allies' musical arts. This works will with Hanyi as it makes her LWM art harder to dispel and increases the damage she can do with FSP. Furthermore, the pipers can throw themselves in front of an attack and absorb it, which again works well with Hanyi given that she is significantly more squisher than either Ling Qi or Zhengui.

The drummers, meanwhile, debuff our opponent's hit and avoid with a zone of darkness. Not as useful as the pipers given that the Drummers are still going to be weaker than our opponents, but it will be a nuisance that is difficult to get rid of because if it takes lethal damage it splits into two smaller drummers. However, if the drummers are successful in tagging an opponent, than Zhengui and Hanyi will have an easier time hitting them with their attacks as well as avoiding their own attacks in turn.

Further levels of the art are sure to increase the potency of these two summonses, as well as adding more to the list of possible constructs.
 
Now for some good news. It is a darkness art which means that it could slot into the Darkness month coming up without mucking things up, and while the minions we can see aren't too impressive on their own, there are some nice synergies with Hanyi specifically. The pipers can provide some consistent enhancement to the potency of our own musical arts as well as to the potency of our allies' musical arts. This works will with Hanyi as it makes her LWM art harder to dispel and increases the damage she can do with FSP. Furthermore, the pipers can throw themselves in front of an attack and absorb it, which again works well with Hanyi given that she is significantly more squisher than either Ling Qi or Zhengui.

The drummers, meanwhile, debuff our opponent's hit and avoid with a zone of darkness. Not as useful as the pipers given that the Drummers are still going to be weaker than our opponents, but it will be a nuisance that is difficult to get rid of because if it takes lethal damage it splits into two smaller drummers. However, if the drummers are successful in tagging an opponent, than Zhengui and Hanyi will have an easier time hitting them with their attacks as well as avoiding their own attacks in turn.
Thing is, I can't help but feel that everything there that it has that PLR *doesn't*, are things that should be stuck into PLR.
 
I would argue that this development is actually one of the drivers of the tensions causing our current problems. While we may have started as support focused, and continue to build a support-y Domain, our actual build has increasingly been one that supports us being able to do everything ourselves. To run around on our own, and be able to fight all the dudes without any help.

This strong element of self-reliance means that we just don't really work with other people or really fully use our support arts - which increasingly fall by the wayside.

Being more provacative, I would personally favor reorienting our build more towards support, and deprioritising DPS arts. Like, this will annoy some people, but I would totally favor dropping UGM in favor of something more AC/Coldstar-like (though it would have to be music ofc. Maybe dance).
I also agree that with the promise to Zhengui and Hanyi that we'll be involving them more in our strategies and tactics this would be a good time to pivot more towards support arts. In that vein, I'm going to throw my hat in the ring for an art that previously didn't make the cut because it lacked the needed oomph, but could do some work in a supporting role as part of our build. That art is "Evanescent Anthem of the Night Parade" (EANP).

Give me a good plan that supports both and I WILL support it. TO be fair, mostly because I like Coldstar or to be more specific the Keyword-choice there
 
I haven't had time to be involved in the general discussion of the domain conflict, but I do feel that:

(1) Not all problems can be solved with friendship alone. The thread has a strong tendency to, when given a choice between a social obligation and personal power, choose the former by a huge margin immediately. This is obviously good to an extent, but this is not the sort of setting where you can sacrifice personal power at every decision point and be fine; and I feel like there's a very strong reluctance to ever not do so.

(2) One can cultivate while letting others dictate one's beliefs; one can cultivate while letting others dictate one's actions. One cannot cultivate while letting others dictate one's Way. Some individualism is necessary in order to advance, to say nothing of principle.

This is less in reference to the votes and the current domain conflict and more with regards to some of the discussion that's been going on around it.
 
edit: oops, was way behind when I posted this. Sorry, I didn't realize vote was already locked.

[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.

2 reasons.

First, CRX has been both clear and consistent in her belief that there are no irrelevant problems. In her view, large problems grow out of small ones and only by properly addressing minutia can progress be made. The first choice asserts that a failure is irrelevant, since that's contradictory to CRX worldview, it won't help.

Secondly, CRX and Ling Qi both want CRX to be different from Shenhua. if she gets all the same insights as her mom did, she'll end up the same. So not getting an insight here is good. It means she's developing in a different direction than her mom. That's what CRX wants and option 2is the closest we get to expressing that.
 
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[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
 
@yrsillar

Goddamn, it's like you read my mind???

This is a quote from a PM I sent Veekie around mid-August when I first wrote Mendicant Blade Part 1.

This omake is getting more and more ridiculous as time goes on, the initial POV character was supposed to be sword boi and he was supposed to be quietly training and learn that 'a swordsman chooses what to cut' but it's become this big mess. :V

Like I realize the lesson is super predictable, and that part of the inspiration for the scene itself had been kicked off by Kill Six Billion Demons (they had just recently passed Maybe Blade Noodle Lady's flashback) but even so! I felt like someone had walked over my grave, scuffed the dirt and then made off with a USB full of unpublished material.

Like, just, what!?

Bravo. Love it, especially the degradation comment. That acknowledgment that being a sword is incompatible with being a human is just *chef's kiss*.
 
With all this talk of cultivating even more new arts, do we know for a fact that successor arts are not worth the ap cost?

I had assumed they was inherently fully domain compatible and thus significantly stronger, but at the price of a high meridian cost akin too LFWT. But as we are constantly talking about adding ever more arts, I assume that is not the case? Or is the case that the soft meridian cap is no longer a thing, and we can basically have an endless number of meridians?
 
I would argue that this development is actually one of the drivers of the tensions causing our current problems. While we may have started as support focused, and continue to build a support-y Domain, our actual build has increasingly been one that supports us being able to do everything ourselves. To run around on our own, and be able to fight all the dudes without any help.

This strong element of self-reliance means that we just don't really work with other people or really fully use our support arts - which increasingly fall by the wayside.

Being more provacative, I would personally favor reorienting our build more towards support, and deprioritising DPS arts. Like, this will annoy some people, but I would totally favor dropping UGM in favor of something more AC/Coldstar-like (though it would have to be music ofc. Maybe dance).
While I agree this is a significant factor, it doesn't help that @yrsillar keeps creating scenarios where support play is impossible or objectively worse, and not just for Ling Qi's slipping capabilities in that area.

The bandit arc is an example of this. Ling Qi basically single-handedly wiped out the bandit force, without the leader stepping in until the last moment when our allies crested the proverbial hill, at which point he more or less instantly fled. This meant there was no real clash of force against force, and looking at the outcome it even seriously calls into question the wisdom of the enemy commander. And yes, Hanyi and Zhengui did contribute to the initial scrum, but you can't seriously tell me they really mattered. Support strategies were fiat impossible during this arc, despite being a rare instance of cultivators being fielded in numbers.

The more expansive example is the second sect military operation village defense arc though. We picked the most obviously/potentially teamwork oriented assignment in choosing to defend static points manned by soldiers. After that though, and this definitely benefits from hindsight, every single "fight with other people" option until maybe our very last one would have had significantly worse outcomes. Staying put with Xiulan and Zhengui would have helped protect the handful of casualties that happened there when the swarms started riling up, but both other villages would have suffered catastrophic additional damages; abandoning teamwork here had no practical cost, so teamwork was objectively inferior, and we correctly predicted this in advance of the (lack of) consequences of the decision. After that, at Shen Hu's village, standing and fighting with the village would have protected from damages dealt by the red Nomad swarm, but endangered the semi-distant Green scout- even in just the context of the one fight, teamwork had ambiguous value involving real trade-offs. The third village would have been fucked, and it's unclear whether the assassin would have made it to our home village and fucked up our friends or popped its head in at the village we were fighting in. This means that there's at best no clear advantage to picking teamwork, even in the narrow context of the welfare of our own village while we know the third's would have been sacrificed, where it is established fact that not picking teamwork resulted in more or less optimal results across the board. The only arguable "unteamwork" choice with consequences was getting stabbed instead of sharing the risk, but that's a highly complicated and muddled issue which doesn't map to team/support issues well.

I understand there was narrative value in showing the threat of being menaced on all fronts by an enemy larger than we can hope to individually grapple with, it is an important thing to establish, but then requiring Ling Qi to be the omni-present linchpin for grappling with the front we found ourselves on is counterproductive to the intended themes. Showing off Ling Qi's mobility didn't play to the narrative strengths of the village defence choice either, relative to the other options. Yes, she's really fast and that's realistically a huge contributor to her value in warfare, but in practice it was less of an asset and more of a tie binding our hands. And then that obligation was completely vindicated by the fact that doing anything else would have been abject failure in comparison. There would almost be a theme of playing to your strengths in here, except that tarpitting and delaying enemies was previously narratively highlighted as her area of extreme expertise, but it would have resulted in a destroyed village and potential dead Green scout if used when the opportunity arose. Instead, Ling Qi single-handedly charged the enemy host that had been overwhelming the second strongest village's defenses and came off with only a few scratches, despite not even using her theoretically most potent anti-group attack screening Art in the effort.

The thematic flow and incentives are a bit of a mess.
 
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While I agree this is a significant factor, it doesn't help that @yrsillar keeps creating scenarios where support play is impossible or objectively worse, and not just for Ling Qi's slipping capabilities in that area.

The bandit arc is an example of this. Ling Qi basically single-handedly wiped out the bandit force, without the leader stepping in until the last moment when our allies crested the proverbial hill, at which point he more or less instantly fled. This meant there was no real clash of force against force, and looking at the outcome it even seriously calls into question the wisdom of the enemy commander. And yes, Hanyi and Zhengui did contribute to the initial scrum, but you can't seriously tell me they really mattered. Support strategies were fiat impossible during this arc, despite being a rare instance of cultivators being fielded in numbers.

The more expansive example is the second sect military operation village defense arc though. We picked the most obviously/potentially teamwork oriented assignment in choosing to defend static points manned by soldiers. After that though, and this definitely benefits from hindsight, every single "fight with other people" option until maybe our very last one would have had significantly worse outcomes. Staying put with Xiulan and Zhengui would have helped protect the handful of casualties that happened there when the swarms started riling up, but both other villages would have suffered catastrophic additional damages; abandoning teamwork here had no practical cost, so teamwork was objectively inferior, and we correctly predicted this in advance of the (lack of) consequences of the decision. After that, at Shen Hu's village, standing and fighting with the village would have protected from damages dealt by the red Nomad swarm, but endangered the semi-distant Green scout- even in just the context of the one fight, teamwork had ambiguous value involving real trade-offs. The third village would have been fucked, and it's unclear whether the assassin would have made it to our home village and fucked up our friends or popped its head in at the village we were fighting in. This means that there's at best no clear advantage to picking teamwork, even in the narrow context of the welfare of our own village while we know the third's would have been sacrificed, where it is established fact that not picking teamwork resulted in more or less optimal results across the board. The only arguable "unteamwork" choice with consequences was getting stabbed instead of sharing the risk, but that's a highly complicated and muddled issue which doesn't map to team/support issues well.

I understand there was narrative value in showing the threat of being menaced on all fronts by an enemy larger than we can hope to individually grapple with, it is an important thing to establish, but then requiring Ling Qi to be the omni-present linchpin for grappling with the front we found ourselves on is counterproductive to the intended themes. Showing off Ling Qi's mobility didn't play to the narrative strengths of the village defence choice either, relative to the other options. Yes, she's really fast and that's realistically a huge contributor to her value in warfare, but in practice it was less of an asset and more of a tie binding our hands. And then that obligation was completely vindicated by the fact that doing anything else would have been abject failure in comparison. There would almost be a theme of playing to your strengths in here, except that tarpitting and delaying enemies was narratively highlighted as her area of extreme expertise, and it would have resulted in a destroyed village and potential dead Green scout if used when the opportunity arose. Instead, Ling Qi single-handedly charged the enemy host that had been overwhelming the second strongest village's defenses and came off with only a few scratches, despite not even using her theoretically most potent anti-group attack screening Art in the effort.

The thematic flow and incentives are a bit of a mess.

Is this not a bit of a self fulfilling thing trough? I mean, we are part of the Scout/Skirmisher division, and was chosen for that because of our art. Both the border incident and this recent war arc is basically a part of a skirmishers role.

If we move to a more support oriented build we will presumably have to request a transfer to the more standard army, which inherently will create more support opportunities?

That said I enjoy being in the scout division, so I imagine I will vote for arts that keep us there..
 
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Is this not a bit of a self fulfilling thing trough? I mean, we are part of the Scout/Skirmisher division, and was chosen for that because of our art. Both the border incident and this recent war arc is basically a part of a skirmishers role.

If we move to a more support oriented build we will presumably have to request a transfer to the more standard army, which inherently will create more support opportunities?

That said I enjoy being in the scout division, so I imagine I will vote for arts that keep up there..
That's actually completely irrelevant to the events that happened. Both scout and army force cultivators were assigned to the villages. Swap our on-paper position with Xiulan's and nothing changes about the situation or its outcome.

Our speed/stealth capabilities aren't even being discussed as trade-off for returning to support, either, so it's not a realistic concern. Lastly, the issue is that Ling Qi isn't being allowed to use even her existing anti-enemy tarpit "support" strats by the narrative.
 
That's actually completely irrelevant to the events that happened. Both scout and army force cultivators were assigned to the villages. Swap our on-paper position with Xiulan's and nothing changes about the situation or its outcome.

Our speed/stealth capabilities aren't even being discussed as trade-off for returning to support, either, so it's not a realistic concern. Lastly, the issue is that Ling Qi isn't being allowed to use even her existing anti-enemy tarpit "support" strats by the narrative.

Well, off course it changes, Xiulan could not leave her position as commander of the village defense after she had been alerted potential threat. If the roles had been reversed Xiulan would have left for the other village while we would have stayed. That is the entire point of armies having different assignments. People with different assignments do different things.

And I suppose I worded myself really poorly, but my argument is that support arts are far more useful to someone serving in the army surrounded by other soldiers compared to someone serving as a scout which will often find them self alone as part of their duties.
 
With all this talk of cultivating even more new arts, do we know for a fact that successor arts are not worth the ap cost?

I had assumed they was inherently fully domain compatible and thus significantly stronger, but at the price of a high meridian cost akin too LFWT. But as we are constantly talking about adding ever more arts, I assume that is not the case? Or is the case that the soft meridian cap is no longer a thing, and we can basically have an endless number of meridians?
Successor arts are stronger, however, the only successor arts we can reliably get access to are those for archive arts, which are weaker.
Personally we should at least check what kinds of successors are up on the menu, but theres' been a strong movement against wasting time to check for anything thats not a core art.

Because the best stuff come from gacha and plot drops anyway.
 
Successor arts are stronger, however, the only successor arts we can reliably get access to are those for archive arts, which are weaker.
Personally we should at least check what kinds of successors are up on the menu, but theres' been a strong movement against wasting time to check for anything thats not a core art.

Because the best stuff come from gacha and plot drops anyway.
Thank you for the answer! I was also thinking of self made successor arts when referring to high ap cost, but insight as too why we don't seek the archive succesors was certainly welcomed!
 
I think removing DPS skills or allowing ourselves to fall behind with them to become a support is a bad idea. We have been told and shown that having good DPS is essential. Back in Forge this has come up a couple times. Meizhen has told us to get more damage skills before, and yeah she isn't all knowing but she is a good guide for what a high noble is expected to do. We have questioned CRX about her practicing a support skill when the tourment was coming up. She said it was ok and the Duchess did not agree. We even pointed out that the duchess has policies that seem to promote individual power. If we don't have good solo skills we will handicap ourselves politically. We know the sect promotes it with the whole challenge system, so this is likely an important part of imperial noble life. Plus we will be fighting alone eventually, because knowing ysillar, our last promise just means the next time we fight alone it will be super dramatic and painful.

Now if the goal is to do more teamwork then that I am totally behind. But teamwork isn't just some set of skills it is also how skills are used. Even with our current skills we have worked as a team. The BINO fight with CRX ended with two of us working together to take him down. It only got to that point because we as an invididual could lock him down long enough to get everyone else there. I think even with our current skills we could be a better team player. Working with Zhengui should be easy, our skills to lock people into an area and then constant attack them. Having overlapping fields of death, which also heal our allies is easy and powerful. Using Hanyi like we did in the last fights to deal with some of the easier targets is also pretty obivous. Yeah there are some conflicts to figure out here, zhengui is too slow and hanyi to squishy but fixing that isn't going to come from dropping dps skills. Now I will happily say we don't work together often and do try to do everything ourselves even when we shouldn't, but that is a deeper problem.

We have a fundamental problem where we don't consider other people very much. Even our friends don't generally come into plans on how we will do things. This is what does more to limit our teamwork than anything else I think. I'm not sure a few arts would really help this. If anything Ling Qi would probably just start feeling weak again. She seems to treat being able to fight alone as strength and running or fighting with others as being weak. I'd like to do things to change that but I think those are more narative actions then just a few arts. I'd be happy to have a better sideboard of arts, a better TRF or ENM that is more group focused would be great, but putting holes in our build to fit into some archtype isn't a good plan.
 
While I agree this is a significant factor, it doesn't help that @yrsillar keeps creating scenarios where support play is impossible or objectively worse, and not just for Ling Qi's slipping capabilities in that area.

Yrsillar keeps creating realistic scenarios, that show that both enemy and allies can think about what they want to achieve. And Ling Qi in such realistic scenarios is more useful on her own than with a group, true, but so what? He should stop doing that because it discourages the style you think is most fun?

Ling Qi will have more opportunities to fight in a group later, probably in the coming Underground Adventure vol. 2. Or during the tournament. Or in her fiefdom. This wasn't it, but it is not a problem, because what you want is not objectively better for the story, it's only a personal preference.

Regardless, I feel like massive brawls in the style of Thunderdome will get rarer and rarer, because number of people with equal cultivation will get lesser and lesser, and fights will turn more and more away from squad vs squad, unless Ling Qi takes the commander route.
 
Also, should actually vote.
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
 
Yrsillar keeps creating realistic scenarios, that show that both enemy and allies can think about what they want to achieve. And Ling Qi in such realistic scenarios is more useful on her own than with a group, true, but so what? He should stop doing that because it discourages the style you think is most fun?

Ling Qi will have more opportunities to fight in a group later, probably in the coming Underground Adventure vol. 2. Or during the tournament. Or in her fiefdom. This wasn't it, but it is not a problem, because what you want is not objectively better for the story, it's only a personal preference.

Regardless, I feel like massive brawls in the style of Thunderdome will get rarer and rarer, because number of people with equal cultivation will get lesser and lesser, and fights will turn more and more away from squad vs squad, unless Ling Qi takes the commander route.
The lack of teamwork has had real narrative and character consequences, to the point that Ling Qi is suffering cultivation penalties due to highlighted and relevant philosophical conflicts within her own self. We the players just made a vote in favor of cooperative effort. This isn't just my preferences, clearly. I'm pointing out how the options available steered us into that conflict- lack of opportunity and lack of ability have been chichen and egging us to this point for a long time.

I liked the village defence arc, but the fact remains that some aspects of the scenario's design acted at narrative cross-purposes. The overall setting details did a good job of impressing that Ling Qi's grasp, even at its widest, still fails to encapsulate a truly relevant chunk of the world. She's an ant among giants, and needs to make due within that context. All the same, I don't think her being simultaneously a more or less uncontestedly large fish in the small pond of her local environment helps advance that broader narrative as convincingly as it might otherwise be.

More related to the issue of cooperation with others, the scenario was built with a bias towards... not doing so. The way this was achieved was sort of via protag goggles, and Ling Qi getting breaks where other characters didn't. Ling Qi's village had the strongest defenders and least powerful attackers in comparison, plus the most forewarning of attacks, and a narratively scripted save from a 4th realm cultivator. Shen Hu's village had the largest enemy force and one of its two Greens caught with his pants down and vulnerable. The third village had both of its Green defenders taken by surprise, one instantly killed while unaware by an assassin of superior cultivation, the other caught alone and barely surviving. Ling Qi, acting alone, and not even from ambush, can drive off 100+ cultivators while outnumbered 3-1 even in her own realm with minor injury, but choosing to actually engage with the same force with the benefit of backup automatically costs her scores of lives within the broader front. All the personal risks were strongly and I'd argue artificially minimized throughout, input and output. The scales were badly tipped one way, in a way that strains verisimilitude when reviewed, and in a manner incoherent with immediately following narrative demands re: lack of teamwork with Zhengui et al. It can be argued as intentional setup, but I don't think it was. These issues have been brewing in the background for a long time; the idea that it was a continuation of the same oversights seems more likely to me. It's fine if you disagree.

An aside, but I'd appreciate it if you knocked off arguments built around my imagined preferences and stuck to the issues I've brought up. You don't need to make digs at what you think I want. My motives are irrelevant, and it's completely unproductive to get into a debate over them.

Edit: as a further aside, I wish people would stop hugging my posts. I appreciate the solidarity, I really do, but the ratings have the effect of incorrectly implying I'm upset. This can come off as a bit condescending, but it also undermines a neutral reading of my posts by others, which undermines my ability to communicate my ideas while encouraging responses that dismiss them for "salt" or whathaveyou. If you want to make a show of support, but can't bring yourself to 'like' a post full of such obviously wrong ideas, It's okay not to leave a rating.
 
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