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Scaling Up

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Kinsfire said:
That's a rule a lot of people forget exists. I use it myself, but I'm old enough and from a small enough school that I got ACTUAL English training, and was able to avoid Bonehead English in college. (FOr those who don't know, Bonehead English is usually called English 101, where they teach you all the stuff that modern K-12 schools SHOULD have taught you.)
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Or you read enough books to have seen it often and did the research as to why it is done that way yourself. My middle and high school were a combined school for the grades, meaning I attended the same school for seven years. At the same time, I had some good English teachers there, and they were more than willing to answer questions relating to it, especially as more than a few students were not native English speakers. I am not talking about the exchange students either, of which we had a few as well.

And yeah, I avoided Bonehead English when I went through college as well. Didn't finish college, I ran out my education benefit there and looked more towards getting a job just to pay bills. Don't regret trying for a degree though, I like learning.
 
Let's face it, teaching how to write just isn't something grade or high schools care to do anymore.

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Another thing I'm always seeing, and that bugs the hell out of me, is people not starting a new paragraph every time someone different is speaking. Or who have paragraphs that take up 1/3 (or more) of a page. I was taught the following rules of thumb for when writing:

* A paragraph should be 5 lines or 5 sentences, whichever is longer (moving from a Word doc to forum format tends to break this bit of formatting)
* A paragraph should ideally cover one subject, if you are changing subject you should do so with the next paragraph
* Dialog is always a new paragraph for each speaker
* If speech goes longer then one paragraph don't close the quote in the first paragraph but have quotation marks at the start of the new paragraph, repeat until the person is done speaking
* Try to vary having the bit detailing who's speaking before, after, and in the middle of the dialog
 
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DestinyPlayer said:
It would be kind of hilarious if the armies of the Fantasy invaders ended up being defeated by the one force they know not, nor does virtually anybody else in D&D:

Non-lethal weaponry.
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Non-lethal weaponry DOES exist in D&D though. Anything with the Mercy effect is incapable of dealing lethal damage. And anyone can chose to deal non-lethal damage with any weapon. Although how one does non-lethal damage when firing a bow or crossbow, I have no idea. It's just that many players (thus adventurers) default to Murder Hobo as their standard tactic, and never even consider taking prisoners for any reason.
 
FaerieKnight79 said:
* A paragraph should be 5 lines or 5 sentences, whichever is longer (moving from a Word doc to forum format tends to break this bit of formatting)
* A paragraph should ideally cover one subject, if you are changing subject you should do so with the next paragraph
* Dialog is always a new paragraph for each speaker
* If speech goes longer then one paragraph don't close the quote in the first paragraph but have quotation marks at the start of the new paragraph, repeat until the person is done speaking
* Try to vary having the bit detailing who's speaking before, after, and in the middle of the dialog
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Never heard the first as a rule, but more as a strong guideline. The third one is one I have broken when to follow it would actually ruin the flow of the speaking. It is VERY rare, but sometimes someone speaks and someone interjects a single word, such as a shouted "Good!", but the original speaker continues the main thought. It's basically one of those rules you have to understand in order to understand when it's okay to break it. It is a VERY rare situation where breaking it works.
 
Kinsfire said:
Never heard the first as a rule, but more as a strong guideline. The third one is one I have broken when to follow it would actually ruin the flow of the speaking. It is VERY rare, but sometimes someone speaks and someone interjects a single word, such as a shouted "Good!", but the original speaker continues the main thought. It's basically one of those rules you have to understand in order to understand when it's okay to break it. It is a VERY rare situation where breaking it works.
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Relaying simultaneity in text is always a doozy to be honest. All methods of doing it are clunky in one way or another and tend to break down the feeling that they're supposed to be carrying.

Writing is very much turn-based combat.
 
Keep in mind, the rules I was taught in high school ARE guidelines instead of hard rules. And they also assume you're writing using paper & pencil, a typewriter, or a word processes program that'll be outputting to physical paper. For the most part, they're formatting guidelines to make things easier to read. For example, why "five lines or five sentences" for paragraph length? Because without a guideline like that, it's entirely possible to have a single paragraph end up taking up half a page or more. And nobody wants to read a Wall-Of-Text. Why "new speaker means new paragraph"? Because a paragraph of nothing but 2 or 3 different people talking to each other can get very confusing.
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Especially when combined with people not using quotation marks for speech. When someone denotes speech 'like this' for example, and don't separate dialog into it's own paragraphs... It can be easy to miss someone is speaking. It's worse when they don't even do that. I've seen stories that throw dialog into the general flow of paragraphs without any indication other then maybe a "he/she said" at some point. At which point you're wondering what part of the paragraph was dialog vs descriptions. Even worse if the story is written in first person perspective.
 
DestinyPlayer said:
Writing is very much turn-based combat.
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And there are times when it looks bad. For example, Alex said, "Man the cannons!" while Sarah said, "Belay that!" at the same time as Darwin said, "You're all going to die!"

By your logic, you'd need three paragraphs and a bunch of extra words to explain that they were talking over each other. Starting things with indents also looks really weird in certain online media and you have to occasionally kidney punch the software and site codes to make it work.
 
Mistofshadows said:
And there are times when it looks bad. For example, Alex said, "Man the cannons!" while Sarah said, "Belay that!" at the same time as Darwin said, "You're all going to die!"

By your logic, you'd need three paragraphs and a bunch of extra words to explain that they were talking over each other. Starting things with indents also looks really weird in certain online media and you have to occasionally kidney punch the software and site codes to make it work.
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Not sure what you mean by "by your logic" because I never said that what Kinsfire said was wrong. Hell I hadn't really made any claims in the first place.

I just said that all approaches to writing simultaneity in writing are inherently janky.
 
Mistofshadows said:
And there are times when it looks bad. For example, Alex said, "Man the cannons!" while Sarah said, "Belay that!" at the same time as Darwin said, "You're all going to die!"

By your logic, you'd need three paragraphs and a bunch of extra words to explain that they were talking over each other. Starting things with indents also looks really weird in certain online media and you have to occasionally kidney punch the software and site codes to make it work.
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The "rules of thumb" I was taught in high school are guidelines, thus why they are called rules of thumb. On the other hand...

As for your point about indents, you're right that indents don't really work with most forums and other online story posting sites. Thus the common adaptation of double spacing between paragraphs instead. It's the same reason I switched to using a centered "XxXxX" as a divider between sections, when my preferred method is using a centered *(tab)*(tab)* to do the same. But tab spacing breaks in most web formats for text display.

"Man the cannons!" Shouted Alex to the crew as the dread pirate Darwin's ship came into view.

Sarah, the second in command, immediately shouted "Belay that!"

From the other ship the boisterous voice of Captain Darwin could be heard simultaneously shouting "You are all going to die!"
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Look at that, 3 people speaking, three distinct paragraphs, and it can depict that one person is interjecting shortly after the first, while the 3rd is speaking at the same time as the 2nd. You just have to add a bit of descriptive text beyond who's speaking. Which to be fair, is something that any half competent creative writing teacher would probably suggest you do anyway.

Now, the context of why Sarah is countermanding the order to man the canons when they are clearly facing hostile forces is a good question. But that would likely be part of the overall story. Maybe Sarah is working with Darwin. Or maybe she has knowledge nether Alex nor Darwin possess about the area that would make fighting a Really Bad Idea. Just from the dialog, we don't know.
 
Kryslin said:
[Bottom 02]
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Recently finished my (re-)read of this, it was as much fun as I remembered!

May have been in something I've not read, yet, but is all the other worlds in the same, canon Entity-threatened, area?

I ask because a lot of the lore seems rooted in (Forgotten Realms-ish) Toril, and that's got a crystal sphere, and some pretty variant physics.

Yeah, I know - mixing real-ish world, supers, fantasy - can be tricky...

Mistofshadows said:
Starting things with indents also looks really weird in certain online media and you have to occasionally kidney punch the software and site codes to make it work.
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I've tried lots of things in writing, over the years. Indents were (mostly) for cramming more text on the paper. A single blank line between paragraphs seems to work better - some word-processors need hitting firmly to stop messing with your page layout - one reason I still generally start with a text editor.

Another thing is the 'clever' stuff - another reason to mostly work with text editors. Messing with speech-marks (quotes), hyphens - anything which gives more than ASCII/UTF-8 (basic). 'Halping' as some might call it. Worked out which word processor I'm talking about, yet? :)

Ultimately, it's about agreed ways of communicating, and homo sap sensories/mental limits... Until everyone is cyborgs/uploaded/AGIs. :)
(Even then, I predict nostalgia for the 'old human limited stuff'...)

EDIT:

I've seen text from the 1980s, stored in computers, transferred multiple times, which is still fully readable and usable, because it follows the above principles. 7-bit ASCII, ISO Latin 3, from memory. If you go back further computer text is likely upper-case only, and was originally on punched cards/paper tape... The old 6-bit character sets... (For extra fun look-up DEC RADIX 50...)

Odds are AI-based OCR/computer-read text will turn all the stuff still only on paper into computer text, eventually... How well that is done is another matter...
(We can hope high-rez images of the original pages are also stored...)
((And that open standards are used.))

Best of luck to all current and future writers!
 
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My default settings in any word processing program I use is "automatic indent" or roughly a 0.15 indent at the start of paragraphs (something I was taught to do), and 1.5 spacing between paragraphs. (Something I started doing because online text editors tend to remove indents) Prior to word processing programs being able to auto-format once you set that up, I'd start paragraphs by hitting either space bar 5 times or tab once. More often then not I'd just hit Tab because that was easier.

Online media doesn't tend to preserve such formatting, and trying to make it do so is clunky and inconsistent. So people adapted to not bothering. But when they then also don't bother doing something to separate paragraphs either, you end up with a Wall-O-Text which is hard to read unless you copy into your favorite text editor and personally add paragraph breaks in where they clearly should be. If I have to do that for more then one intentional section of a story, I'm probably going to leave a review explaining about paragraph breaks and why they are important, then walk away.

EDIT:
Similarly, over use of Zelgo is another immediate turnoff. As is using Zelgo with it set to bleed into lines above and below the actual word.
 
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What is Zelgo? I looked on Google, and the only thing I came up with was crossing Zelda and Lego ... *laugh*
 
Kinsfire said:
What is Zelgo? I looked on Google, and the only thing I came up with was crossing Zelda and Lego ... *laugh*
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en.wikipedia.org

Zalgo text - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I'd seen this, but didn't know what it was called. Useful if used with (great) care, annoying pain otherwise. Those fond of it might want to consider what people with already dodgy eyesight perceive.

TL;DR: Like L33t speak, but even more of a pain.

Some authors use this for the speech of Eldritch Entities in their stories - one maybe two, lines OK. Otherwise, don't, just don't.
 
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DestinyPlayer said:
I just said that all approaches to writing simultaneity in writing are inherently janky.
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I was just saying that it doesn't have to be janky. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.

FaerieKnight79 said:
Which to be fair, is something that any half competent creative writing teacher would probably suggest you do anyway.
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They're too busy concentrating on large projects and shiny things, or something. Either way, I'll admit I'm sort of curious why Sarah didn't want them shooting now.
 
Mistofshadows said:
They're too busy concentrating on large projects and shiny things, or something. Either way, I'll admit I'm sort of curious why Sarah didn't want them shooting now.
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Maybe she'd seen the dragon surfacing behind Darwin's ship? Realised he was about to earn his Award, and didn't want to risk joining him in that? :)
 
Mistofshadows said:
They're too busy concentrating on large projects and shiny things, or something. Either way, I'll admit I'm sort of curious why Sarah didn't want them shooting now.
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The creative writing teacher I had in my 3rd year of high school insisted at the end of each week students turn in a rough draft of what they're working on. The next Monday they'd have proof read it, and listed suggestions for how to improve certain things. Among them was adding details when they are lacking.

And yeah, why Sarah didn't want her ship to be shooting would be an interesting plot point.

Ace Dreamer said:
Maybe she'd seen the dragon surfacing behind Darwin's ship? Realised he was about to earn his Award, and didn't want to risk joining him in that? :)
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Which would fall under "Environmental knowledge both Captains lack that would make fighting a Bad Idea", would it not?

Also, I'm now tempted to try fleshing that little scene out into a full story.
 
FaerieKnight79 said:
Non-lethal weaponry DOES exist in D&D though. Anything with the Mercy effect is incapable of dealing lethal damage. And anyone can chose to deal non-lethal damage with any weapon. Although how one does non-lethal damage when firing a bow or crossbow, I have no idea. It's just that many players (thus adventurers) default to Murder Hobo as their standard tactic, and never even consider taking prisoners for any reason.
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"Living is a right, but kneecaps are a privilege."

Or, to use the Skyrim meme?

"I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow to the knee."

(And yes, I am well aware that's a euphemism for getting married)

In short, aim low, and go for the legs. An undead army is vastly easier to deal with if it's an army hobbling on just one good leg, or reduced to pulling themselves by their arms w/ both legs shattered.
 
FaerieKnight79 said:
Also, I'm now tempted to try fleshing that little scene out into a full story.
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Feel free. :)

I was working on the theory she knew something the others didn't, and, this story is called 'Scaling Up'...

Context. Makes things more tricky, makes for the details that make things interesting!
 
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Sakuya's Butler said:
"Living is a right, but kneecaps are a privilege."
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The thing is, a arrow or crossbow bolt are still putting a hole in the target. It's not bruising them. Which means it is lethal damage. Choosing to target a hand or knee is still putting holes in them. So how does an archer chose to deal non-lethal damage (which I believe only wraps around into lethal if the amount is greater then the target's max health minus any lethal damage already taken) with their sharp and pointy projectile being fired from a distance at the target? This isn't someone pulling out a "boxing glove arrow" or anything else silly like that. They pull out a standard arrow or bolt, and just declare "I'm doing a non-lethal attack."

Merciful weapons are one thing, that's a magic property enforcing non-lethal damage. One which you have to chose to disable if you want to deal lethal damage. Chosing to do non-lethal damage with a sword via attacking with the flat of the blade (or pummel) is one thing. But sharp pointy non-magic projectiles from a non-magic weapon that are non-lethal just because you decided to pull your punches is silly.

Hell, there's a reason why supposedly non-lethal ammunition and weapons in the real world is actually "Less lethal". Even a blank can kill, as Hollywood has discovered far too often.
 
Uh, by using an arrow specifically designed not to put holes in things?

I mean, bird blunts have been around for centuries, I would assume any society that uses bows would invent a similar arrow.
 
Thanks on the ZALgo explanation, folks.

And yeah, there are specific rounds designed for bluntness. (Loved how they managed to have Oliver use a boxing glove arrow in the CW Arrow show. He didn't want to kill the guy, but he needed to hit him. Noticed a boxing glove on the ground that was perfectly in line with the guy, and fired an arrow into the glove, driving it at the guy he wanted to take out. It was fun enough that I ignored all the problems with the scene. Fun show, but the best of the group was The Flash, IMO.)
 
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