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Re: Tinker rating - If/When Naurelin starts crafting things, yes, she'd get a Tinker rating, albeit a low one. Granted, her material requirements are pretty stringent; Most armor and weapons require a masterwork item as a base, and the higher the enhancement, the more exotic the materials become. Adamant and Mithril she'd have to go looking for in the Outlands.

Say, for a Brooch of Adaptation, she'd need a masterwork piece of jewelry, presumably out of Platinum, Alter Self, materials, time, and ranks in Craft : Wondrous Item.
 
Kryslin said:
Re: Tinker rating - If/When Naurelin starts crafting things, yes, she'd get a Tinker rating, albeit a low one. Granted, her material requirements are pretty stringent; Most armor and weapons require a masterwork item as a base, and the higher the enhancement, the more exotic the materials become. Adamant and Mithril she'd have to go looking for in the Outlands.

Say, for a Brooch of Adaptation, she'd need a masterwork piece of jewelry, presumably out of Platinum, Alter Self, materials, time, and ranks in Craft : Wondrous Item.
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I'm a little curious how Tinkertech items would work as the base materials. Does Armsmaster's Halbard count as a masterwork item? Or is it just not "enough" given he's not a craft maters and is relying on his Shard to get things done? Or does it actually count as 30 different items kludged together and thus not the 1 item you need for base materials?

Always fun things to ponder. :)
 
Nicholai said:
I'm a little curious how Tinkertech items would work as the base materials. Does Armsmaster's Halbard count as a masterwork item? Or is it just not "enough" given he's not a craft maters and is relying on his Shard to get things done? Or does it actually count as 30 different items kludged together and thus not the 1 item you need for base materials?

Always fun things to ponder. :)
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I imagine it would count as a Wonderous Item all on its own. There is a precedent for such multipurpose items after all.

Same with most tunkertech gear, really. They probably mostly count as wonderous items.
 
Nicholai said:
I'm a little curious how Tinkertech items would work as the base materials. Does Armsmaster's Halbard count as a masterwork item? Or is it just not "enough" given he's not a craft maters and is relying on his Shard to get things done? Or does it actually count as 30 different items kludged together and thus not the 1 item you need for base materials?

Always fun things to ponder. :)
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Given the degree of quality in make and materials he would require to achieve that level of precision and miniaturization, it would have to be Masterwork, I think.
 
A question about Masterwork Items:

I know Masterwork weapons and armor are quantitatively superior to common items in D&D, but how much of that is better Steel, purer alloys, and better precision crafting? Pre-industrial Revolution Iron was typically fairly poor quality compared to modern alloys, largely because it was nearly impossible to fully melt and refine the ores used to make Iron and Steel before that point in history. So, does a modern Spring Steel Blade automatically count as Masterwork Blade for enchanting purposes?

Before anyone gets their hopes up, almost every blade not intended for use on a knife made these days are either cheap, low-quality metal for decorative items or traditionally made reproductions using traditional materials. As such, while modern equipment and techniques could produce Spring Steel Blades by the dozen, such blades are not commonly available. That said, a modern military Combat Knife or a high-end Kitchen Knife may well qualify for enchantment....

For jewelry, what does and does not qualify is hard to judge, but considering how a LOT of costume jewelry is pot metal with an appropriate coating, it's safe to say most of THAT will not qualify; the main question is what does and does not qualify, and if most dedicated Jewelry Stores sell qualifying pieces as a matter of course......

So, what does it take to qualify as a Masterwork Item in this Modern Setting?
 
Jacen1 said:
A question about Masterwork Items:

I know Masterwork weapons and armor are quantitatively superior to common items in D&D, but how much of that is better Steel, purer alloys, and better precision crafting? Pre-industrial Revolution Iron was typically fairly poor quality compared to modern alloys, largely because it was nearly impossible to fully melt and refine the ores used to make Iron and Steel before that point in history. So, does a modern Spring Steel Blade automatically count as Masterwork Blade for enchanting purposes?

Before anyone gets their hopes up, almost every blade not intended for use on a knife made these days are either cheap, low-quality metal for decorative items or traditionally made reproductions using traditional materials. As such, while modern equipment and techniques could produce Spring Steel Blades by the dozen, such blades are not commonly available. That said, a modern military Combat Knife or a high-end Kitchen Knife may well qualify for enchantment....

For jewelry, what does and does not qualify is hard to judge, but considering how a LOT of costume jewelry is pot metal with an appropriate coating, it's safe to say most of THAT will not qualify; the main question is what does and does not qualify, and if most dedicated Jewelry Stores sell qualifying pieces as a matter of course......

So, what does it take to qualify as a Masterwork Item in this Modern Setting?
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Its right there in the title. What makes a Masterwork sword deal more damage/be more accurate/whatever, is the quality of manufacture. In modern terms, its the difference between a chair made in a factory and a chair hand made by an skilled artisan.

Sometimes, masterwork items also have better quality materials, but that isn't what makes it masterwork.
 
Exactly, it's entirely the skill of the manufacture. Even at level 1, an apprentice smith *can* forge a masterwork sword or armor. However doing so for them is a long and difficult process, with many many many failures and wasted materials. Meanwhile the master smith can do so much easier due to being more skilled at their craft. If they push themself to work faster, they might make a few mistakes. And most of their work is going to be the bog standard quality goods that pay the bills. But they can make a masterwork weapon or armor just as easily as they make a regular quality weapon or armor. Or to put it into perspective, what's the difference between a painting by Rembrant or Van Gogh, and a painting by a child in grade school? Especially if they used the same types of paint and canvas, the difference is in the skill of the painter.

Ordinaryonigiri said:
Given the degree of quality in make and materials he would require to achieve that level of precision and miniaturization, it would have to be Masterwork, I think.
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Actually, I would suggest that tinkertech is not masterwork quality. This is because it doesn't use higher quality materials or require more skill to make. Instead it relies on shard shinanigans to work, and can literally be made with whatever junk you scrounge up. Higher quality materials might reduce how much maintenance is needed. But they are unneeded.
 
So, if Dragon were to manufacture a perfectly balanced, flawless Calvary Saber, of the same pattern used by the U.S. Marine Corps with their Dress Uniforms, then would it be a Masterwork Blade, even if she can run off several hundred identical blades like this each minute?

Can sufficiently precise automation produce Masterwork Quality items? Or is their some quality imparted upon the item by being made by hand that is needed for it to be enchanted?
 
jmcdavid said:
The real question is, if Dragon could indeed mass produse Masterwork items...how would Saint react?
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Badly enough to require divine intervention. I do believe there are a few gods running about that would look quite well upon miss Richter.

That said, we all know what the first thing that woman would do after getting a flesh and blood body.
 
Kryslin said:
Re: Tinker rating - If/When Naurelin starts crafting things, yes, she'd get a Tinker rating, albeit a low one. Granted, her material requirements are pretty stringent; Most armor and weapons require a masterwork item as a base, and the higher the enhancement, the more exotic the materials become. Adamant and Mithril she'd have to go looking for in the Outlands.
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Actually, I am pretty sure that you can at least transmute iron into adamant considering there's at least one golem that starts out as iron which you transmute with a Polymorph spell into adamant...
 
jmcdavid said:
The real question is, if Dragon could indeed mass produse Masterwork items...how would Saint react?
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Probably with indifference; barring enchantment, a Masterwork Item is, fundamentally, just an exceptionally well made one. Dragon diversifying her manufacturing base by making top-quality ceremonial gear for a national military would barely register as important, save as a way of acquiring income for other projects. Something she has likely done many times before, and will likely do many times in the future.

Let's face it; Dragon likely has no shortage of government contracts, and including a few for mundane items would not be unreasonable.
 
Jacen1 said:
So, if Dragon were to manufacture a perfectly balanced, flawless Calvary Saber, of the same pattern used by the U.S. Marine Corps with their Dress Uniforms, then would it be a Masterwork Blade, even if she can run off several hundred identical blades like this each minute?
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The U.S. Marine Corps does not and never used Calvary Sabers, nor do they poss any pattern for one.
 
PossiblyEnos said:
The U.S. Marine Corps does not and never used Calvary Sabers, nor do they poss any pattern for one.
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Odd. I recall their old recruitment adds featured marines in Dress Blues carrying Sabers, and once read the U.S. military adopted a specific design of "Calvary Saber" near the beginning of the 20th Century that was noteworthy of being too straight to do a good job for carvery use, but was a convenient length for that purpose. I suppose I could have misidentified the swords used, however.....

Ordinaryonigiri said:
en.m.wikipedia.org

Mameluke sword - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Not sure if it counts as a "Cavalry" Saber, but even so.
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Saber used by British Cavalry? Probably qualifies.....
 
Jacen1 said:
Odd. I recall their old recruitment adds featured marines in Dress Blues carrying Sabers, and once read the U.S. military adopted a specific design of "Calvary Saber" near the beginning of the 20th Century that was noteworthy of being too straight to do a good job for carvery use, but was a convenient length for that purpose. I suppose I could have misidentified the swords used, however.....
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You're likely thinking of a Cutlass, not a Saber.
 
Jacen1 said:
Odd. I recall their old recruitment adds featured marines in Dress Blues carrying Sabers, and once read the U.S. military adopted a specific design of "Calvary Saber" near the beginning of the 20th Century that was noteworthy of being too straight to do a good job for carvery use, but was a convenient length for that purpose. I suppose I could have misidentified the swords used, however.....
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Well, here is what I found with a quick google. Looks like it's a Footman's saber, not calvary saber.
 
Jacen1 said:
So, if Dragon were to manufacture a perfectly balanced, flawless Calvary Saber, of the same pattern used by the U.S. Marine Corps with their Dress Uniforms, then would it be a Masterwork Blade,
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Really now?
`dict calvary` said:
1 definition found

From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn]:

Calvary
n 1: a hill near Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified [syn:
{Calvary}, {Golgotha}]
2: any experience that causes intense suffering [syn: {calvary},
{martyrdom}]
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... definition 2 would be sort of stereotypical of any number of weird components of military dress uniforms, guess the swords might be in the same vein... but I'd sort of expect that to preclude it counting as a "Masterwork Blade"?

I mean, is this a typo that's getting to be more common than the correct spelling, or are you all doing it on purpose?

FaerieKnight79 said:
Well, here is what I found with a quick google. Looks like it's a Footman's saber, not calvary saber.
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The officer and NCO swords are different, and the officer model looks to be of a general pattern that was popular with cavalry officers in several countries at one point. (Notably, popular in situations where they didn't expect to actually have to fight using it...)


Meh. Over here the official military swords are straight-bladed and there's at least something resembling a basket hilt... still not something I'd want to use in a fight.
 
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Jacen1 said:
Odd. I recall their old recruitment adds featured marines in Dress Blues carrying Sabers, and once read the U.S. military adopted a specific design of "Calvary Saber" near the beginning of the 20th Century that was noteworthy of being too straight to do a good job for carvery use, but was a convenient length for that purpose. I suppose I could have misidentified the swords used, however.....


Saber used by British Cavalry? Probably qualifies.....
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They may have a Cavalry saber but they certainly don't have a Calvary one.
 
My spell checker is weird; it claimed Calvary is a legitimate word, but Cavalry is not. I've added it in.

The key point, that EVERYONE has avoided addressing, was my question of if a well enough made mass produced blade would count as a Masterwork one, or if the blade needs to be made by hand to qualify for enchanting purposes? Can Dragon, with her incredibly precise manufacturing capability, produce enchantable items, or do you need a Master Craftsman using Traditional Tools?
 
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