Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
- Start date
- Fantasy
SneakyWalrus
Is the Water Free?
Oh, I get the feeling that once word of this gets back, the Horde is likely to take a dim view akin to their one from canon around the Scarlett Crusade.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
Was the second one supposed to be "what do you intend us to do?"
- Location
- United Kingdom
Not really, there's different reasoning. Arthas was entirely justified in Stratholme. Not even the Naaru can cure the Plague, there's no way they would have been able to do anything of consequence to prevent the spread in time other than killing everyoen, eg, getting a load of mages to come help somehow.
Here there's not really a threat of contagion, Dathrohan is on the offensive as previously established and they're removing a settlement of their enemy. The Crusade concede that Forsaken can be redeemed or whatever, but Dathrohan has been sitting outside Brill for 6 months and has gotten tired of it and wants to move on. If you'd gotten here earlier instead of sitting around at the Manor for 3 turns then you might have been able to do more. I've noted previously that events proceed without you, and while I didn't write this scene specifically to demonstrate that, this is indeed a case where that's happened.
Why? Why would they care? I doubt they had a specific view in canon, they never really encountered the Scarlets, but Thrall was inclined to refuse the Forsaken admittance before Caine advised him to. I assume the Orcs are generally deeply concerned by the idea of the undead given the importance they place on ancestor worship, so I don't really think they'd care.
Nope, repeated for emphasis
Technically possible but unlikely. Tirion would recognise that any coup supported by orcs of all people is unlikely to succeed. Such a conflict wouldn't just be military, there's a political and cultural element. Tirion would have to win the argument through his advocacy, not by just killing everyone who disagreed with him.
Last edited:
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Alright you're point's been made you didn't like that that happened I get it, although I'm doubtful that mr has all the tact of a brick through a window and is an orc would be able to help much.
The other side of course is that we were kinda assuming/hoping that them acknowledging that the Forsaken are not inherently evil would also mean that they wouldn't decide to go RL colonialism, but I suppose that's another mark in the tally of "Dathrohan is Balnazar" cause while a stupid move for the head of the crusaders its an excellent move if you want to burn any chance of the Forsaken and Scarlet Crusade teaming up.
Because irregardless of that they are allies, and this is what seems to be an essentially indiscriminate massacre against a civilian population.
Even assuming Thrall does not care for them, this still sends the message to all his allies that he doesn't care for them.
That a foreign power can march in, take their land and massacre their populations while the guy who is theoretically the head of the entire organisation will sit back and do nothing about it.
I can't imagine the message that would send to the Trolls, Tauren or even a lot of the orcish clans and Sylvanus herself would likely go "why the hell did I join the horde in the first place then" if the main reason she did so doesn't manifest (mutual aid and protection.)
In other words, cultural biases be damned Thrall doing nothing is such a gobsmackingly stupid move politically that him doing nothing completely breaks his character.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I'd be surprised if he hadn't.
This is an area that is very important to the orcs on many levels, if for no other reason than there are orcs in and around it, its where his newest ally is and the movements of the scourge are of significant importance to the world.
Eh I was thinking Tirion pulls a coup with the assumption he has a suitable following with him. Grok joining is optional.
Alternatively he leaves out of disgust and Grok temporarily takes him in until he goes somewhere else.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I somehow doubt Tirion will be leaving.
However, I am getting more and more worried about Datharion and the likely state of Calia Menithil.
Well, it looks like the issues associated with the Faith part of the Crusade show up. Kill them all and let God sort them out stuff.
I doubt there is anything immediate to do, but this is a fracture in the Scarlets to pay attention too. Plus it's a sign for me that stepping up the pace of putting down a footprint is important. The BB is still a small player in this part, gotta keep putting down roots/growing to better have resources for these situations.
Good teaser update FD
I doubt there is anything immediate to do, but this is a fracture in the Scarlets to pay attention too. Plus it's a sign for me that stepping up the pace of putting down a footprint is important. The BB is still a small player in this part, gotta keep putting down roots/growing to better have resources for these situations.
Good teaser update FD
- Location
- United Kingdom
So again, I didn't write this to punish questers. This was something that was going on, Dathrohan and others have their own motivations and plans which are ticking along. You can't necessarily predict things like that. Also even if you went there earlier it might not have done much, depending on rolls etc, which here represented Sevran as a gestalt of the Forsaken. Here you did indeed get some Forsaken out, but the rest were still there when attacked. What Grok represents might have been a neutral party, which might be relevant later when you're dealing with the Amani or similar groups. It's useful to have an honourable mediator to be trusted by both parties rather than negotiations stalling all the time because both assume the other is out to get them.
So this is indeed good analysis. However, I'd make a few points. These are all OOC keep in mind, Grok can speculate but knows little of this.
- Thrall is political. Blackmoore trained him to be, and Thrall will be aware of the value of alliances. He certainly practices this, he allies with the Trolls and Tauren, much closer alliances than with the Forsaken who just sort of turn up and petition him. There are different degrees of alliances basically.
- Thrall (and the orcs) don't like the Forsaken, and are probably aware of at least some of the Forsaken's treachery.
- The Forsaken are less valuable to the Horde than a reborn kingdom of Lordaeron might be. Thrall is a farseer, and in command of various other intelligence gathering means, and will have some inkling of what's going on.
- Thrall and his advisors also comprehend the problems associated with logistics. The Horde has little ability to deploy a large force half-way across the world. They might, for example, rent a dozen zepplins, but that would probably be a large portion of the goblin fleet, and would endanger their neutrality, and we know they couldn't go by sea because the Horde doesn't have a fleet.
- Yes the Scourge are important, and who benefits from battle between the Crusade and the Horde? The Scourge.
- Oh almost forgot the civilian thing, firstly, what happened at Brill will need to be communicated. Let's say Thrall farsees it, great, he has little incentive to communicate it. Alternatively, say it gets back to Kalimdor a year later. Firstly, it was a while ago so there's not much to be done about it other than grumble, secondly, it's at least 3rd hand info that's passed through traders or similar, who's to say it's legitimate? It might be communicated by certain parties that Brill was actually full of Scourge and they were burnt as is proper. On the civilian point specifically, orcs are genociders, indeed we have specific understandings of warfare but the orcs are still at the internecine tribal stage, it's established in their culture that you should kill all of the enemy, not just some. Some of this is demon stuff but this happens in tribes IRL too, "wars between different tribes are in principle wars of extermination" and I'm basing orcish culture off RL because of the historical materialism thing this quest has going on.
The Scarlet Princess is safe and well, and in the care of the Grand Crusader. The Lady Calia has empowered Saiden Dathrohan to lead her armies and speak for her in all matters, placing great trust in this goodly paladin.
Any person spreading doubts or rumours regarding such matters is likely an agent of the Scourge and should be reported to your commander.
Are we going to get a diablo plot? Royal child's possessed by a demon?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I'm well aware.
That said neutral parties tend to require a position of some strength and a mutual degree of trust to back up their words.
Grok's force certainly isn't strong compared to the bulk of the crusade and we're definitely not trusted possibly by either side.
A "neutral" mediator is just another person sitting there as both sides yell at one another if they don't have the ability to actually tell them to shut the hell up and have oomph to back up their statements.
As for get some forsaken out, yeah but I can't help but feel we've basically condemned them to internment camps and torture.
He was also taught by Doomhammer too.
However, while I acknowledge that there are different degrees of alliance, having one in name only and abandoning even that is really bad especially to a society that supposedly has some honour in it. Furthermore its a bad message to send to people he could have an alliance with. People don't tend to find you trust worthy if you make agreements with people and then don't honour them no matter who they are.
I would argue against them having any specific gripes with them for being undead. They've willingly worked alongside complete arses in the past quite happily and the ancestor worship thing forgets that the ancestors are the literal dead and ghosts who can interact with people via Oshugan. I can't imagine they'd find the Forsaken's situation thrilling, but I don't think they'd be willing to make an alliance with them even if it took persuading and then just abandon them.
Also which trechery? ATM the only one that might count is Garithos, whose situation is...weird given his express desire to kill her as soon as Balnazar was dead.
(Side note I think that the horde must be doing something for the Forsaken as well, since supposedly it was thanks to the horde and the argent dawn that the Forsaken kept their territory.)
He's also dealing with the fact Orgimmar just got punched in the face and the barrens have a giant gash running through it which is likely ****ing over trade between Durotar and Mulgor something rotten.
I'm not saying Thrall can do a lot, only that Thrall has to do something.
That said I'm not sure where the hell Thrall's ships are. He should still have some.
This is true. However, an out and out war is not necessary.
He has to give the impression he cares and is committed to the Alliance he has made, while also making an implied threat.
I again disagree on that point.
As for the second point Brill was meant to be one of the Forsaken's largest centres of population! The canonical pop of the under city is 13,000, Brill at 3000. Given the inability for them to replenish their numbers this is literally a large chunk of their "race" for lack of better term wiped out, which is a whole nother level than what you're trying to go for.
Furthermore many of the older orcs and people like Thrall should also really not be a fan of that, what with the trauma of killing the Draenai, and humans then Thrall's own experiences with them.
They should not be nearly as ****ing static on this issue when a majority of their most respected citizens have internalised the lesson that that shit's a bad thing.
As for the info thing, in which case remove Thrall from an alliance with Sylvanus.
If he is so completely uninterested or even enthused at the idea that the forsaken will be obliterated to the point that he and Sylvanus didn't set up some form of long range communication then they're not even in an alliance of any kind, stop pretending they are.
And if that's the direction you want to go with that's great, otherwise this just smacks of wanting to hand Thrall a massive goddamn idiot ball for literally no reason.
My suggestion would have been that Thrall asks Cairne to send over a force of Tauren to aid the Forsaken in their fight against the Scourge.
Tauren are neutral as far as humans are concerned, they have powerful magic, they're the ones that advocated for the Forsaken in the horde in the first place and it sends a pretty clear message that if the Crusade tries to attack the under city the Tauren will stand with them, while reassuring the Forsaken.
I assume you're meming, but if you're not then anyone with even a few brain cells left should be going, **** that.
- Location
- United Kingdom
There's a human prisoner in Stonard who's assassinated by Deathstalkers to stop him revealing it, for example,
"Please have mercy on me! I have information that goes beyond alliance boundaries. While I am no sympathizer of the Horde, there is political treachery going on that must be revealed!"
There's also a Tauren the Apoths turn into goo, not specifically treachery I suppose but really just symptomatic of the Forsaken's general policy toward the Horde.
Not aware of that but I could see it yes. Ultimately I think a lot of it comes down to realpolitik again. Simply having a relatively friendly polity in the northern Eastern Kingdoms is useful for the largely Kalimdor based Horde.
Not as far as I'm aware. Anything that survived from Southshore shouldn't have survived Daelin.
One of the things I've not mentioned in the teaser that I have noted in the actual chapter would be population. The Scarlets have been moving for a while and there's subsequent actions by the Forsaken there. Very ooc, you might imagine that Varimathras and Balnazzar are coordinating. It's exceptionally convenient for the Scarlets that the Forsaken have mostly gone off to the Undercity and essentially sealed themselves inside with the blight cloud.
I don't necessarily like building up so much of the narrative in an ooc fashion, I think I've mentioned it before, the Necromancer's Tower problem, but here for example we might say that the majority of the Forsaken are safe in the Undercity, and that Varimathras called Feldad on the Felphone to relate that to Thrall, who in turn doesn't need to act. The Forsaken don't need to eat etc so any siege would be very long, and with the blight cloud the Scarlets can't get in. And yes, only shortly after Thrall's heard about all this Orgrimmar is smashed so I suppose he's just shrugged.
Well, catching up with a bit of the thread buzz I suppose I'll chime in with my own Realpolitick nonsense.
As far as the Kalimdor based Horde goes, keeping most of this at arms length makes sense. Thrall has integration issues with just the orc clans, let alone ensure that the tauren and trolls are working along the orcs well. It does stink to run into another smoldering situation that resolves in a poor way, but this just shows how important Grok's BB expedition is.
Outside of general skulduggery going on all around, the warband independently can help tip the situation on the ground in order smooth more situations before they come to a head.
Going to need to see more of the current warband actions to see their results, but hopefully helping clear up the route to the sea/the crusades flanks will turn their attention more to Stratholm/the Scourge there. With the Forsaken in the Undercity on lockdown, the BB can potentially volunteer for more mop up operations that way in case there are other human/forsaken remnants in the woods that would benefit grok's diplomancing. Then again that also might be a poor use of resources.
Egging the crusade along towards the center of the blight is likely a better route. That is the point of their existance/ this war after all. I always worry about the BB running out of supplies orcpower, but that will best be addressed as it goes along.
Winning over Kul'tiras is likely more important too given logistics involved in any support from Kalimdor on a large scale.
I'd always vote towards starting up a tiny BB navy to use as the start of some greater thing for the Horde/quest use. That is a big investment even for a small transport fleet though. Unless Grok follows Thrall's lead and just nicks one : P
As far as the Kalimdor based Horde goes, keeping most of this at arms length makes sense. Thrall has integration issues with just the orc clans, let alone ensure that the tauren and trolls are working along the orcs well. It does stink to run into another smoldering situation that resolves in a poor way, but this just shows how important Grok's BB expedition is.
Outside of general skulduggery going on all around, the warband independently can help tip the situation on the ground in order smooth more situations before they come to a head.
Going to need to see more of the current warband actions to see their results, but hopefully helping clear up the route to the sea/the crusades flanks will turn their attention more to Stratholm/the Scourge there. With the Forsaken in the Undercity on lockdown, the BB can potentially volunteer for more mop up operations that way in case there are other human/forsaken remnants in the woods that would benefit grok's diplomancing. Then again that also might be a poor use of resources.
Egging the crusade along towards the center of the blight is likely a better route. That is the point of their existance/ this war after all. I always worry about the BB running out of supplies orcpower, but that will best be addressed as it goes along.
Winning over Kul'tiras is likely more important too given logistics involved in any support from Kalimdor on a large scale.
I'd always vote towards starting up a tiny BB navy to use as the start of some greater thing for the Horde/quest use. That is a big investment even for a small transport fleet though. Unless Grok follows Thrall's lead and just nicks one : P
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Ehhhh that's not what that quest line is about.
He's killed for spying on their "survey" mission, AKA their attempts to recreate the plague on Varimathras's orders.
In general a majority of the really shady shit pre cata is done by the apothecaries and other organisations majorly compromised by Varimathras.
Shakes head.
Just saying realpolitik doesn't make it actually practical or useful. There are real politik reasons for them to want to, but most of those rely on having a foot hold in the eastern kingdoms that is not essentially locked in a box unable to do jack crap.
If the Forsaken's entire population is in the under city now then Thrall's lost the main reason he could have to want them as allies, a place where his zepplines or ships can arrive from Kalimdor without getting shot the fuck down something the Forsaken can no longer provide for rather obvious reasons.
Any particular reason for that? Not only did he manage to steal enough ships to transport seemingly the entirety of his horde (just Orgrimmar's population alone would have required a huge number Spanish Armada levels if not more) Daelin's campaign never managed to get off the ground to the point that he could take the attack to the horde.
His attempts got beaten back by Rexxar and the like and he was forced to blockade Theramore to try and prevent an attack from the horde's ships. Then Rexxar destroyed his fleet and the horde managed to land an army on Theramore to lay siege to it.
I'm sure a lot of ships got cannibalised for materials or lost, but they should still have some, especially since the orcs were making their own by cata.
Speaking of the earliest horde ships we see in the MMO are Forsaken ones, so another reason that Thrall could want to join up with them is the Forsaken are the ones with expertise in ship building that he needs to get a navy.
I bloody well hope so, though frankly it raises more questions for me, like why they didn't just eject them into the blight if they don't want to deal with them, or better yet I assume they have to keep a force back to keep an eye on the under city it being a very large concentration of force, so I had thought their duties would include keep an eye on Brill too.
I mean...maybe. I was kinda hoping that Varmiathras had really gone traitor in this one, since Nathrazim (like most things, but they've got the best examples) don't have to be all evil all the time. Doesn't surprise me at all though.
I don't think you've brought up the necromancers tower before, although I understand the concept. The forsaken are not as able to engage in it as most undead though since their bodies wear out and well...madness is always an issue.
As for narrative and OOC, sometimes that is unfortunately how it has to be.
As for that one it feels like if nothing else Thrall would want to try and reduce tensions between a member of the horde and the ??? of the humans, since I'm pretty sure he doesn't want another war.
Yes I'll just go dig up the expertise, the infrastructure and the cut down all the trees.
Boats are complicated!
OOC we need to make it a priority to expose Balnazar. Its hard to understate the amount of damage he can keep doing in the middle of this.
I imagine we'll also need to rip off the bandaid that is Renault as well.
So Nax?
- Location
- United Kingdom
So I disagree with some of the points but there's also not really the info sufficient to refute them so I'll just leave it.
Really just what I was thinking with the way it works irl. Certainly their might have been a few ships left after the storms, wrecks, canibalism and so on which would have reduced the number of operational ones, but subsequently Daelin turns up and I imagine his first move would be destroying any ships the orcs have left. There aren't any protected harbours in Durotar and Daelin would have control of the sea following his arrival. In this I've written one of Thrall's big problems as the continuing Kul Tiran blockade and the resupplying of Kul Tiran forts along the coast by the human navy, without which taking the forts would certainly be much easier.
So I did a load of research into GMing before I started this and the Necomancer's Tower was one of the issues that came up. Essentially you want the players to go to the tower at the end of the campaign, but the players might not want to, therefore instead of saying the tower is in the eastern hills and them going to the southern plains instead, the tower can be wherever you want it to be when you need it. For me this means that although I have a vague idea of particular points and have written down the most important ones, I haven't presented Thrall's perspective or written out all the stuff he's thinking about. For narrative purposes it's sufficient for Grok to perceive various things, for Thrall to work in the background, and so on, rather than me expositing something I might have to take back later or modify. I can present a series of events in the narrative for Grok to proceed though, and I can justify these with various points. For example, has Thrall taken no action? Was he preparing a force but it got lost? Was said force redeployed post-Forneus? Did he give orders to the Frostwolves around Alterac and similar to take action? Is he accepting of the Forsaken's almost absolute defence and therefore is content? These could all be potential things he's done or is doing, or was considering but then decided against it, but happily the quest is from Grok's limited perspective so I don't need to consider it too hard.
Kufufu
Adequate at best
- Location
- What's it to ya?
Honestly, I'm not seeing anything wrong with Thralls lack of action here. He and the Hord are realing hard from the burdens of Kalimdor and they just don't have the resources or desire to help a group of undesirables on a totally different continent fight back against the Allience powers. Sometimes you have to let a nominal ally go the way of Poland.
It not like the Forsaken aren't abominations against...everything, give or take a piller of reality that no one wants to touch anyway.
It not like the Forsaken aren't abominations against...everything, give or take a piller of reality that no one wants to touch anyway.
Yes Nax.
Making nice with Kul'tiras is already on the list, while I doubt they would want to give any hands being able to tap that populace pool would at least give a pointer. Besides, no one is asking you to do it. That's what the peons are for
With the kick in the pants to fight, its not exactly the time to hunker down in Silverpine to log. Though hey, getting a constant Goblin Zepplin trade route from there back to Orgrimmar would help logistics alot. Full cut logs go one way, dumb warsong grunts who want to fight come this way. The Goblins also stay safely "neutral", as they are just doing normal trade route stuff. Maybe it lowers the stress on the Nightelves, but doubtful any big impact could happen with the resources on hand.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Issue is he's shown as not having that. In fact the horde ends up beating his fleet with their own ships, which he needs to pull back to hold theramore.
And there is a natural harbour, just not in Durotar, in fact depending on the timeline there's been a full on harbour for a while, Ratchet.
With Thrall being a personal friend of Gazlow (and Gazlow being an extremely generous man by pretty much any standard, he finances Bane's retaking of Thunderbluff out of his own pocket) I think its very reasonable to say that the Horde fleet would be anchored there.
Since Goblins had some presence on Kalimdor (I assume otherwise I'm curious as to how people like Sneed got to Ashenvale before them) I think it reasonable to assume Ratchet was already there and they could store their ships at it and if it wasn't then even better for Thrall, he likely helped build Ratchet, getting even better rates.
That can still be a problem, orcs are not exactly known for their expertise as sailors. Them managing to out sail Dalin can be due to his own over confidence and anger blinding him leading to him challenging an enemy fleet that knew the seas and coasts of the area much better than he did.
I know what the Necromancer's tower is you don't need to explain it to me.
Aside from the impacts it should have on his reputation, for IRL reasons I really don't like the implication of "going a poland."
As for the Forsaken, so what? I consider the black dragons the same and I want to help them anyway. The Forsaken are unironically easier to help though, since a large swath of their issues can be attributed to mental issues brought about by their current existence, which is unironcially probably easier to fix, not being linked to the old gods and all.
Tap the Forsaken.Making nice with Kul'tiras is already on the list, while I doubt they would want to give any hands being able to tap that populace pool would at least give a pointer. Besides, no one is asking you to do it. That's what the peons are for
With the kick in the pants to fight, its not exactly the time to hunker down in Silverpine to log. Though hey, getting a constant Goblin Zepplin trade route from there back to Orgrimmar would help logistics alot. Full cut logs go one way, dumb warsong grunts who want to fight come this way. The Goblins also stay safely "neutral", as they are just doing normal trade route stuff. Maybe it lowers the stress on the Nightelves, but doubtful any big impact could happen with the resources on hand.
They're not exactly a population made up of soldiers, they're random schmuckos who happened to get lucky enough to be standing around when Ner'zul's grip weakened.
I think that transporting really ****ing heavy logs/planks across the ocean (never mind on Zeplins) is probably non viable.
The goblins are interesting though, cause Ratchet is supposed to be the most active and popular trade port in the world at the moment, with the trade princes giving Gazlow a free hand, seemingly because they're afraid he'll take off with the cash cow.
Despite that he's very much in bed with the horde. He manages to maintain neutrality by not being a colossal dick about it.
Still the wood thing is interesting, cause causing early cata may have caused the forbidden pools to start blooming early.
If so then there's a source of wood in the barens and if Thrall plays it right (which I doubt cause seemingly much like Grok Thrall can't do jack shit right cause he's an awful politican. Unsurprising considering the idiot who raised him like that) he could do a cooperative project with the night elves to actually restore the barens to lushness.
- Location
- United Kingdom
Just the segment in Brill is taking up a lot of words. I may have to turn it into an interlude on its own and do the next 5 actions as the actual chapter. Releasing another teaser. I've integrated some of the feedback, it's always useful to get this as it does help me think of particular points to bring up. I've not covered everything obviously, but such critique allows me to cover off particular issues.
"Since we set out," Tirion begins as you walk, "Brill has been one of the only strongholds of the Forsaken left." he describes, "Many seem to have fled to other strong places, but the stubborn ones still stand here even after our reclamation of this kingdom."
"And the Crusade has surrounded them since? You've been trying to persuade them to come out and be tested as they were back there?"
Tirion nods, "At first it was to interpose the army between Brill and the Undercity, then it was to secure the supply lines, then Fairbanks started coming here, preaching, and I could hardly do otherwise, we were friends before you see."
You nod.
"We pushed most of the undead back, Dathrohan is a fine general and Westwind convinced the Kul Tirans to join us. We set up forts like the Solliden's, then we cleared the forests and fields, mile by mile. The Forsaken fought a few times but then retreated, that's their tactic, they'll lie as if dead for days to gain an ambush or some advantage, but they're reluctant to stand and fight. Dathrohan thought to pursue them and take back the capital but before we could that evil blight rose over the city and we soon learnt that nothing living could enter."
What had happened? You'd first heard about the Crusade's attacks perhaps… perhaps a year ago, when you'd stepped through the great gates into Orgrimmar, and they'd more or less conquered the Glades in that time. Had Sylvanus seen her positon and unleashed her unnatural weapons? The blight surrounding the Undercity was an almost absolute defence, at least against the Crusade, and it wasn't like the undead needed to eat.
"How many remain in Brill then?" you ask, it was clear there was much you didn't yet know regarding these affairs, from the position of particular actors or generals, to simply a clear chain of events.
"Five hundred perhaps, maybe four, it's difficult to tell. I admit it was quite the surprise to us to find them willing to speak with us actually, but I suppose they see their position."
Indeed, they are surrounded by a wide picket, not entirely impermeable, but the Crusaders have invested the town to prevent any attack out.
You considered it further, wondering what the Horde's place was in all of this. Had Thrall known of events here? Surely he had, the Frostwolves were still in Alterac as far as you knew, and the Warchief was a Farseer besides. The more you thought about it though the more difficult you it seemed for anything to be done about it. There were perhaps three thousand in the army surrounding Brill and the area around it the town, and more in other parts of the Glade. With the magical support the Scarlet Crusade enjoyed it was certain to you that at least a thousand orcs would be needed to drive them back and relieve the Undercity, and unless Thrall could reliably transport that many orcs across the Great Sea, past the Kul Tiran patrols, you couldn't see how he'd be able to support the Forsaken.
Could Thrall simply not wish to do so? Certainly the Horde's resources were distinctly lacking after the March of Forneus, and any such deployment would have been cancelled… But then you knew from your father's remarks at various points that the bond between the Forsaken and the Orcs was unalike that which your people shared with the trolls or tauren. Would any care? The Warchief had cultivated an image of respect and honour, yet from your own experience you knew him to also be an able politicker. From the way he'd exhibited you when you'd returned to Orgrimmar, to the theatre he'd established after Dreadmist, Thrall's mind was clearly deeper than his external character suggested. Did he think to trade the unreliable and apparently villainous Forsaken for a reborn Kingdom of Lordaeron?
You wondered if it really mattered. You can almost hear the voice of Akinos chiding you for getting lost in possibilities rather than simply acting, and you suppose currently there was little you could do about it. The majority of the Forsaken were apparently safe in the Undercity, and your obligations to honour the Horde's alliance with the deathly folk didn't presently challenge your mission to war with the Scourge. While perhaps you'll consider it later for now you move on, "I was surprised to find the Crusade so welcoming." you confess, "Both to my own people and to the Forsaken."
Tirion grunts, eyes wary about him, "That was Fairbanks' doing." he replies, "Before him we killed any of the undead we could find, save though Vishas and his ilk took for their experiments. In the beginning, or rather I suppose at the end of the Third War, we tried to speak with some of them, bring them back to us." he shakes his head, "Any village which welcomed some former resident would be destroyed shortly after, any undead claiming asylum would invariably turn on us… I saw it, many times… So we simply killed them when we found them, whenever one would claim freedom from the Lich King we assumed they were lying, though some of us now think this may have been a deliberate ploy by the Lich King or his lieutenants to deceive us. But soon it changed, soon we found patrols destroyed, consumed even, creatures of shadow would strike at us without mercy or pity, laughing as they did. They would especially strike at the faithful, priests, paladins, even simple folk… once we captured one alive, or well, unalive I suppose, it claimed allegiance to what it called the 'Cult of Forgotten Shadow', and in turn the Forsaken and the Banshee Queen."
You remain silent as Tirion talks.
"We learnt from survivors who sometimes joined us that Marshal Garithos, one of the survivors of the last war, had allied with a creature of darkness, the elf, Sylvanus Windrunner, who subsequently betrayed him to gain the kingdom. She could turn herself to shadow like the Lightslayers we fought, and later we learnt that she brought one of the Dreadlords, Varimathras, into her service. We kept killing the undead we found, we knew them to be our enemies, despite a few who still tried to claim admittance to our camps. It is a foul existence, the life of these people." Tirion continues, gesturing around the streets of Brill, "The Light burns them, they can't walk on holy ground without pain, even silver harms them, but worse they're still compelled by the will of their dark masters, whether Sylvanus or the Lich King, they hunger not for food but for flesh and suffering, they lust for death and pain, and without it they simply stand staring into nothing."
"But then the Light?"
"Despite their name, the Light forsakes no one." Tirion nods. "Fairbanks was loyal and true in life, death couldn't break his faith, not the tests we put him through, the light healed each one at his prayers. I stood over him myself, I spoke the words and called down the divine. He burned and screamed but within the fire we saw it…"
And you wonder.
Fairbanks had described a power, a great being, one of beauty and grace, coming to him in his hour of need, strengthening him, saving him as he wailed and clawed at the walls of his prison, bloody fingers on hard stone.
"There's something Uther used to say." Tirion remarks as you approach the town square, "I remember it, now and then. When I think on all the suffering of the kingdom, all the lives lost, all the blood spilled… I think on the Light. He used to say that no one feels they deserves it, and that's because no one does. He would say the Light was grace, 'pure and simple'. As mortals we're inherently unworthy, simply because we're flawed. But the Light loves us anyway. It loves us for what we sometimes can rise to in rare moments. It loves us for what we can do to help others. And it loves us because we can help it share its message by striving daily to be worthy, even though we understand that we can't ever truly become so."
The paladin sighs. "If all I do gives me but one glace at what Fairbanks saw, I'll do it gladly, I'll stand as he did, feeling that I can't possibly deserve it or ever be worthy, but feeling the warmth in the soul all the same."
And in the gloom of Tirasfel you do feel it, Fairbanks' words turn over in your mind and you hear but the briefest notes, the softest chimes, the ghost of light from above.
The town of Brill is inhabited by the undead, but you hadn't really understood what that might mean till you find yourself standing in the square. All around you there are holes in walls, missing shutters on windows or rotting wood lying about where the Forsaken haven't bothered to replace doors.
You'd heard that they felt no pain, nor hunger or warmth or cold. Their town lay in ruins all around them, but then again, when the home of your spirit was a corpse, your every moment a hunger for evil and suffering, what did a drafty window matter?
The Forsaken begin to come out. Their eyes empty, yet glowing with light. No happiness, no anger or fear, was this the dreadful existence of such creatures? Was this why so many of the undead you'd encountered wore such tattered clothes, and some of the more bestial ones nothing at all? Had they lost their sense of shame and pride? No doubt it was true, but here you saw that the Forsaken had at least retained their minds, if not their reasoning.
Tirion speaks, as do you, and though it is brief enough the Forsaken's leader remains unmoved.
"We will not go." Magistrate Sevren says. "I have no trust for the supposed 'Crusade', the alleged Princess, or for the Horde. Neither their pet Fairbanks, nor your words, convince me."
The Magistrate in charge of Brill wears faded robes of office, and stands truer than others of his kind. He seems a man, or corpse perhaps, worthy of respect, and you reason with him as best you can, "They are losing patience." you reply, "Soon enough they may move on the town."
Of course you have no idea whether that might be so, but Fairbanks had apparently been bothering Dathrohan about something, presumably it was to adopt a more open policy toward the Forsaken, yet the Grand Crusader had refused, and from your understanding of events, was unwilling to entertain the idea further.
"You claim the floodwaters are rising." Sevren says, "This may be so, yet you also call on us to leap either into a swift torrent or sink to the depths of a sea. I can endorse neither position to my charges."
You've no especial hold over the Crusade, or indeed over the Forsaken, only the largely forgotten and never particularly strong alliance between the undead and the Horde, yet for its sake you make your address, "Take a third way then, I'm willing to escort you to the Undercity." you say, raising your voice to be heard by the crowd, "You might seek safety there. I can offer you no other options."
Tirion remains silent, as does Sevren, and eventually you sigh, "Come." you say to the paladin, "Let's return."
You both turn away, but Fordring speaks softly, "Some heard you and will respond, follow me." And he walks a circuitous route back to the outskirts of the town and the barricade you entered by, perhaps leaving enough time for those you'd apparently persuaded to come forward, which they do.
"Fordring!" a call comes, a rasp from the ruins of a large hall.
You both turn.
A large group, perhaps fifty or so Forsaken are standing there, utterly silent, unbreathing, unmoving.
Once again your struck by the unnaturalness of these folk. They're like statues, each garbed in ragged material, leather and old cloth mostly.
"You'll take us before the Inquisitor?" the rasping one asks, "What are our odds?"
"We've seen him burn people!" someone in the crowd hisses.
Fordring holds up a hand, praying for silence. The light glints off the lining of his glove, a silver hand in the darkness, "With humility, with tenacity, with faith… the odds are good." the paladin replies.
"Remember the virtues." Tirion says to you, "Respect, compassion. The hand is the first thing you give an enemy to turn him into a friend." and he looks to the leader of the group, this one better armed than the others. "You are Zygand." Tirion calls, going toward one and reaching out.
They clasp hands awkwardly, the Forsaken clearly uncomfortable, though the paladin displays an easy coolness which in your current state you find difficult to match.
"Follow us, and put your faith in the Light."
"Since we set out," Tirion begins as you walk, "Brill has been one of the only strongholds of the Forsaken left." he describes, "Many seem to have fled to other strong places, but the stubborn ones still stand here even after our reclamation of this kingdom."
"And the Crusade has surrounded them since? You've been trying to persuade them to come out and be tested as they were back there?"
Tirion nods, "At first it was to interpose the army between Brill and the Undercity, then it was to secure the supply lines, then Fairbanks started coming here, preaching, and I could hardly do otherwise, we were friends before you see."
You nod.
"We pushed most of the undead back, Dathrohan is a fine general and Westwind convinced the Kul Tirans to join us. We set up forts like the Solliden's, then we cleared the forests and fields, mile by mile. The Forsaken fought a few times but then retreated, that's their tactic, they'll lie as if dead for days to gain an ambush or some advantage, but they're reluctant to stand and fight. Dathrohan thought to pursue them and take back the capital but before we could that evil blight rose over the city and we soon learnt that nothing living could enter."
What had happened? You'd first heard about the Crusade's attacks perhaps… perhaps a year ago, when you'd stepped through the great gates into Orgrimmar, and they'd more or less conquered the Glades in that time. Had Sylvanus seen her positon and unleashed her unnatural weapons? The blight surrounding the Undercity was an almost absolute defence, at least against the Crusade, and it wasn't like the undead needed to eat.
"How many remain in Brill then?" you ask, it was clear there was much you didn't yet know regarding these affairs, from the position of particular actors or generals, to simply a clear chain of events.
"Five hundred perhaps, maybe four, it's difficult to tell. I admit it was quite the surprise to us to find them willing to speak with us actually, but I suppose they see their position."
Indeed, they are surrounded by a wide picket, not entirely impermeable, but the Crusaders have invested the town to prevent any attack out.
You considered it further, wondering what the Horde's place was in all of this. Had Thrall known of events here? Surely he had, the Frostwolves were still in Alterac as far as you knew, and the Warchief was a Farseer besides. The more you thought about it though the more difficult you it seemed for anything to be done about it. There were perhaps three thousand in the army surrounding Brill and the area around it the town, and more in other parts of the Glade. With the magical support the Scarlet Crusade enjoyed it was certain to you that at least a thousand orcs would be needed to drive them back and relieve the Undercity, and unless Thrall could reliably transport that many orcs across the Great Sea, past the Kul Tiran patrols, you couldn't see how he'd be able to support the Forsaken.
Could Thrall simply not wish to do so? Certainly the Horde's resources were distinctly lacking after the March of Forneus, and any such deployment would have been cancelled… But then you knew from your father's remarks at various points that the bond between the Forsaken and the Orcs was unalike that which your people shared with the trolls or tauren. Would any care? The Warchief had cultivated an image of respect and honour, yet from your own experience you knew him to also be an able politicker. From the way he'd exhibited you when you'd returned to Orgrimmar, to the theatre he'd established after Dreadmist, Thrall's mind was clearly deeper than his external character suggested. Did he think to trade the unreliable and apparently villainous Forsaken for a reborn Kingdom of Lordaeron?
You wondered if it really mattered. You can almost hear the voice of Akinos chiding you for getting lost in possibilities rather than simply acting, and you suppose currently there was little you could do about it. The majority of the Forsaken were apparently safe in the Undercity, and your obligations to honour the Horde's alliance with the deathly folk didn't presently challenge your mission to war with the Scourge. While perhaps you'll consider it later for now you move on, "I was surprised to find the Crusade so welcoming." you confess, "Both to my own people and to the Forsaken."
Tirion grunts, eyes wary about him, "That was Fairbanks' doing." he replies, "Before him we killed any of the undead we could find, save though Vishas and his ilk took for their experiments. In the beginning, or rather I suppose at the end of the Third War, we tried to speak with some of them, bring them back to us." he shakes his head, "Any village which welcomed some former resident would be destroyed shortly after, any undead claiming asylum would invariably turn on us… I saw it, many times… So we simply killed them when we found them, whenever one would claim freedom from the Lich King we assumed they were lying, though some of us now think this may have been a deliberate ploy by the Lich King or his lieutenants to deceive us. But soon it changed, soon we found patrols destroyed, consumed even, creatures of shadow would strike at us without mercy or pity, laughing as they did. They would especially strike at the faithful, priests, paladins, even simple folk… once we captured one alive, or well, unalive I suppose, it claimed allegiance to what it called the 'Cult of Forgotten Shadow', and in turn the Forsaken and the Banshee Queen."
You remain silent as Tirion talks.
"We learnt from survivors who sometimes joined us that Marshal Garithos, one of the survivors of the last war, had allied with a creature of darkness, the elf, Sylvanus Windrunner, who subsequently betrayed him to gain the kingdom. She could turn herself to shadow like the Lightslayers we fought, and later we learnt that she brought one of the Dreadlords, Varimathras, into her service. We kept killing the undead we found, we knew them to be our enemies, despite a few who still tried to claim admittance to our camps. It is a foul existence, the life of these people." Tirion continues, gesturing around the streets of Brill, "The Light burns them, they can't walk on holy ground without pain, even silver harms them, but worse they're still compelled by the will of their dark masters, whether Sylvanus or the Lich King, they hunger not for food but for flesh and suffering, they lust for death and pain, and without it they simply stand staring into nothing."
"But then the Light?"
"Despite their name, the Light forsakes no one." Tirion nods. "Fairbanks was loyal and true in life, death couldn't break his faith, not the tests we put him through, the light healed each one at his prayers. I stood over him myself, I spoke the words and called down the divine. He burned and screamed but within the fire we saw it…"
And you wonder.
Fairbanks had described a power, a great being, one of beauty and grace, coming to him in his hour of need, strengthening him, saving him as he wailed and clawed at the walls of his prison, bloody fingers on hard stone.
"There's something Uther used to say." Tirion remarks as you approach the town square, "I remember it, now and then. When I think on all the suffering of the kingdom, all the lives lost, all the blood spilled… I think on the Light. He used to say that no one feels they deserves it, and that's because no one does. He would say the Light was grace, 'pure and simple'. As mortals we're inherently unworthy, simply because we're flawed. But the Light loves us anyway. It loves us for what we sometimes can rise to in rare moments. It loves us for what we can do to help others. And it loves us because we can help it share its message by striving daily to be worthy, even though we understand that we can't ever truly become so."
The paladin sighs. "If all I do gives me but one glace at what Fairbanks saw, I'll do it gladly, I'll stand as he did, feeling that I can't possibly deserve it or ever be worthy, but feeling the warmth in the soul all the same."
And in the gloom of Tirasfel you do feel it, Fairbanks' words turn over in your mind and you hear but the briefest notes, the softest chimes, the ghost of light from above.
The town of Brill is inhabited by the undead, but you hadn't really understood what that might mean till you find yourself standing in the square. All around you there are holes in walls, missing shutters on windows or rotting wood lying about where the Forsaken haven't bothered to replace doors.
You'd heard that they felt no pain, nor hunger or warmth or cold. Their town lay in ruins all around them, but then again, when the home of your spirit was a corpse, your every moment a hunger for evil and suffering, what did a drafty window matter?
The Forsaken begin to come out. Their eyes empty, yet glowing with light. No happiness, no anger or fear, was this the dreadful existence of such creatures? Was this why so many of the undead you'd encountered wore such tattered clothes, and some of the more bestial ones nothing at all? Had they lost their sense of shame and pride? No doubt it was true, but here you saw that the Forsaken had at least retained their minds, if not their reasoning.
Tirion speaks, as do you, and though it is brief enough the Forsaken's leader remains unmoved.
"We will not go." Magistrate Sevren says. "I have no trust for the supposed 'Crusade', the alleged Princess, or for the Horde. Neither their pet Fairbanks, nor your words, convince me."
The Magistrate in charge of Brill wears faded robes of office, and stands truer than others of his kind. He seems a man, or corpse perhaps, worthy of respect, and you reason with him as best you can, "They are losing patience." you reply, "Soon enough they may move on the town."
Of course you have no idea whether that might be so, but Fairbanks had apparently been bothering Dathrohan about something, presumably it was to adopt a more open policy toward the Forsaken, yet the Grand Crusader had refused, and from your understanding of events, was unwilling to entertain the idea further.
"You claim the floodwaters are rising." Sevren says, "This may be so, yet you also call on us to leap either into a swift torrent or sink to the depths of a sea. I can endorse neither position to my charges."
You've no especial hold over the Crusade, or indeed over the Forsaken, only the largely forgotten and never particularly strong alliance between the undead and the Horde, yet for its sake you make your address, "Take a third way then, I'm willing to escort you to the Undercity." you say, raising your voice to be heard by the crowd, "You might seek safety there. I can offer you no other options."
Tirion remains silent, as does Sevren, and eventually you sigh, "Come." you say to the paladin, "Let's return."
You both turn away, but Fordring speaks softly, "Some heard you and will respond, follow me." And he walks a circuitous route back to the outskirts of the town and the barricade you entered by, perhaps leaving enough time for those you'd apparently persuaded to come forward, which they do.
"Fordring!" a call comes, a rasp from the ruins of a large hall.
You both turn.
A large group, perhaps fifty or so Forsaken are standing there, utterly silent, unbreathing, unmoving.
Once again your struck by the unnaturalness of these folk. They're like statues, each garbed in ragged material, leather and old cloth mostly.
"You'll take us before the Inquisitor?" the rasping one asks, "What are our odds?"
"We've seen him burn people!" someone in the crowd hisses.
Fordring holds up a hand, praying for silence. The light glints off the lining of his glove, a silver hand in the darkness, "With humility, with tenacity, with faith… the odds are good." the paladin replies.
"Remember the virtues." Tirion says to you, "Respect, compassion. The hand is the first thing you give an enemy to turn him into a friend." and he looks to the leader of the group, this one better armed than the others. "You are Zygand." Tirion calls, going toward one and reaching out.
They clasp hands awkwardly, the Forsaken clearly uncomfortable, though the paladin displays an easy coolness which in your current state you find difficult to match.
"Follow us, and put your faith in the Light."
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Concerning that you are no longer.
Doubt it. While I'd be unsurprised if Thrall would like it, the fact remains most humans really don't like orcs and frankly I don't trust either side to handle this well, especially with Onyxia in charge of Stormwind and the Kul'tiran in maximum murder mode.
Even more so with how valuable Kul'tiran is to the alliance, and how shakey its current involvement is.
I'd say Jania, but currently she's more of a detriment than an aid in regards to Tiran diplomacy and indeed in most areas with the alliance she maybe. She's highly respected as an Archmage (and defacto living weapon) but she's also got the very close associations with Arthas and I think a lot of people see her as a traitor who abandoned the eastern kingdoms to go off to Kalimdore...and her association with Thrall has not helped there either.
I think you mean those.
mmm...
To split this into two, the first half would make me curious as to a timeline. Cause there's a certain measure of chicken and egg to the ones coming and asking for help. While I imagine infiltration tactics were defo a thing they were doing, the reason the cult of the damned generally used necromancers is that necromancers are less fishy and can make a lot of the undead. I'd be curious as to how many were freed by the Lich King's instability, but were tracked down and destroyed by one of the undead factions.
As for the latter ones, that's just typical Sylvanus BS...well
Maybe.
See Sylvanus is a right bitch, but at the moment she's a right bitch with a single goal, kill Arthas by many means necessary. As such she tended to prefer making alliances (even if just temporary ones) to make that easier. That doesn't make her good by any means, but it does mean she doesn't waste assets at this point. She betrayed Garithos because he was going to fight her next, and she mind controls people like Mug'thol and others, but leaves them alive (frankly the Forsaken have always felt like they should have members of those different groups she "recruits" in it.)
I'm not arguing from a morality stand point in the slightest, but from a cold-blooded one she's currently far more focused and pragmatic, enough so that I think she'd have done the same, either offer an alliance of convenience first, or mind control them not just attack.
As such I think that this is either the result of Varimathras (of course), the cult acting on its own or both in some fashion. Reasons are obvious the cult sees the light as abandoning them and Varmiathras wants to ensure that neither side can work together in anyway.
+ the light can create the undead as demonstrated by Calia in canon.
That also said depending on their specific power source, the Forsaken are using shadow/void so no shit it hurts like hell.
The parts that I'm interested in and I'm sure @Jasten is curious about as well is how this can heal a forsaken, but kill an undead (might be due to intent, might be due to amount) and how the healing can actualise restoration without damaging the fundamental magics keeping the forsaken around.
I'd assume that there's something more fundamental going on, since soul + body is present, if its in good enough condition resing em should be possible, but it ain't.
mmm...I think that's probably human projection onto the light. Smacks a lot of judeo christian stuff obviously, but the whole idea of "worthiness" feels like something created by a faith rather than part of its actual nature. That said its not surprising when the light's big downside is essentially tunnel vision of priorities.
I also doubt the light itself is especially interested in sharing a specific message beyond the ones in its core "emotion tags."
Grumble.
Executor Zygand
Executor Zygand is a Forsaken quest giver located in Brill in Tirisfal Glades. He is the superior of Executor Arren[2] and Deathguard Linnea.[3] Prior to the Cataclysm, he sent adventurers to thin the numbers of the Scarlet Crusade across Tirisfal. After the Cataclysm, he also dealt with the worgen.
wowpedia.fandom.com
- Location
- United Kingdom
The above two points basically have the same answer, historical events are complex, and easily misinterpreted, sometimes deliberately. As far as I'm aware Jaina had at least informal sanction, it was partly an excuse to get rid of a load of refugees onto colonies, which is a pretty ordinary colonial practice, the British did it with the Hannoverians and Irish for example. 'A new life awaits you in Kalimdor' and all that. However, once information regarding what happened subsequently, including working with the orcs and specifically going against her father, returned to the Eastern Kingdoms the narrative would have shifted.
On the second point around the undead, again, in theory there could have been several things independently going on. Say an undead breaks free from the Lich King sometime around Frozen Throne, then proceeds to the nearest human settlement and surrenders, but then the Lich King gets a brief burst of power, and that supposedly friendly undead turns Scourge again. Some of it will be Sylvanus, some will be dreadlord shenannigans, some will be the Cult, but it all contributes to how the narrative is formed, and it's much easier for people to process the simple story that all undead are evil and treacherous than it is to do anything else.
See, yes she does want to kill Arthas, but she goes about it in a really bad way. I can't remember who it was but it was one of the wow content creators, possibly Bellular, who did a series on Sylvanus basically pointing out that she's impulsive, opportunistic, but ultimately a poor planner. She seems to have one go at diplomacy with the Alliance, sabotages it to keep people loyal to her, and then never tries again. I'm not complaining that this isn't in character for her, but its poor strategically. For example, if she didn't order everyone to be as evil as possible I could see the Alliance chilling out after a while and slowly accepting the Forsaken, as they largely do toward BfA when life-challenged persons are generally more accepted, for example the death knights, that sort of thing. The Alliance have more than enough enemies for there to be acceptable targets for the New Plague, and no doubt they'd find it distasteful, but I think various people could be persuaded toward it.
This amuses me greatly, there are so many ways it could go wrong.
"Hey A'dal we burned all the gays like you said."
*Confused windchimes*
"Well we thought that's what you wanted us to do from your psychic emanations 500 years ago. Could you check over all the other doctrine we've written up?"
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I'm well aware of the complexities of history, (otherwise I have to really reevaluate my degree).
That said I can't find much evidence Jania received refugees seeing as she left around the same time Arthus went to Northrend.
And also I know that's why I said I wonder about the proportions not about whether or not it was all at once.
Sylvanus as a character has basically been butchered in many many ways.
On the one hand she apparently encourages the Forsaken to have a culture of free will, but also as you said demands absolute loyalty, she's willing to supposedly work with anyone, but only works with the people who are always evil and so on.
And yeah that's part of why I see more possibility of helping the Forsaken than say adult black dragons, most of them are well aware that their situation is fucked, want to fix it and have more free will towards not doing things that increase their fucked upness.
But Bliz has a habit of pigeon holing entire species so that doesn't help.
As for me yeah, its always felt to me like Sylvanus's big character arc should have started after wrath, where the thing she's been keeping herself focused on the entire time is over and then she starts coming apart at the seams cause she's got nothing to live for, but also refuses to die.
Obviously they didn't really do that, but it also feels like she should have had more consequences for being a constant nightmare diplomatically and militarily. Forsaken rebellions and riots etc.
One thing I thought would have been interesting was large numbers of Forsaken migrating away from Lorderan to Kalimdore because they want to try and break with their old selves (its already a cultural thing for them to not visit where they lived etc.) but also to get out from under her domineering thumb. Which would have had all sorts of interesting cultural clashes, with these ex lorderan/alliance dead humans integrating into orcish/troll/tauren societies.