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Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

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rx915 said:
You answered it yourself. It's not worth much.

If this was the book of Medivh I'd give it some thought but a book that's not worth much?

I'd rather keep it for reading to improve his scholarship.
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Its not worth much in terms of knowledge.

To the Kul'tiran its worth a heck of a lot in "how dare you, that's my *insert relation here's* book. You must have killed him, prepare to die!"

Its value goes way beyond the actual information within it in this situation.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Its not worth much in terms of knowledge.

To the Kul'tiran its worth a heck of a lot in "how dare you, that's my *insert relation here's* book. You must have killed him, prepare to die!"

Its value goes way beyond the actual information within it in this situation.
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If they raise a fuss maybe but if they don't I won't. That's it for me and my position won't change.

I had to check back and this load of grok is a bunch of nothing. It's only Kul Tiran books of non magical natures. Feldad already unlocked them and explained it.

FractiousDay said:
Gain large Kul Tiran scrolls (poetry, longer prose, other items)
Gain Kul Tiran books (non magical, some technical books, others longer histories and similar)
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Only ones I'd give back is a diary. I'll keep the rest.
 
rx915 said:
If they raise a fuss maybe but if they don't I won't. That's it for me and my position won't change.

I had to check back and this load of grok is a bunch of nothing. It's only Kul Tiran books of non magical natures. Feldad already unlocked them and explained it.



Only ones I'd give back is a diary. I'll keep the rest.
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In that case we doubly don't need them or the additional risk.

My view is although I forgot about it, the GM pointed it out and since we so rarely get that I feel like we should take advantage while we can, especially since I don't want to keep stuck on the issue of "we never ask for nor give apologies."

Cause that's stupid.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
In that case we doubly don't need them or the additional risk.

My view is although I forgot about it, the GM pointed it out and since we so rarely get that I feel like we should take advantage while we can, especially since I don't want to keep stuck on the issue of "we never ask for nor give apologies."

Cause that's stupid.
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They're just standard issue books and scrolls you'd find in any other human holding. You're not going to reconcile much in friendly relations.

Thrall hasn't paid back Lordaeron with the ships he stole to leave for Kalimdor or the loot he got from Durnholde keep either.
 
rx915 said:
They're just standard issue books and scrolls you'd find in any other human holding. You're not going to reconcile much in friendly relations.

Thrall hasn't paid back Lordaeron with the ships he stole to leave for Kalimdor or the loot he got from Durnholde keep either.
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And they do not care.

This isn't a materialistic issue, its about demonstrating that we give a damn and fighting back against stereotypes or orcish behaviour. One that is more effective because of the context of Kul'tiran rather than say Stormwind or Lorderan.

And because Thrall doesn't do it we shouldn't either? Lovely logic there, he's also not apologised for the unwarrented aggression towards the night elves, the deaths of hundreds of their people, many of their allies and a demi-god either, which as you might imagine is a very big reason relations between both groups have never recovered, he's not agreed to pull back from their forests or seemingly to do anything to appease them, just like he did practically nothing to appease the humans in canon either.

We Grok have nothing to give them in goods that can make up for what they feel they lost and whats more they currently don't really think that coming to an agreement with orcs is even possible. We can at least try to put a dent in that assumption by returning what are essentially worthless things, but are worth so much more due to the message behind them.

In other words stop focusing on the "value" of the books, stop going with a "if I loot it its mine" attitude and try to think about the people at play here.

Worst case scenario it loses us absolutely nothing and that's coming from me.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
And they do not care.

This isn't a materialistic issue, its about demonstrating that we give a damn and fighting back against stereotypes or orcish behaviour. One that is more effective because of the context of Kul'tiran rather than say Stormwind or Lorderan.

And because Thrall doesn't do it we shouldn't either? Lovely logic there, he's also not apologised for the unwarrented aggression towards the night elves, the deaths of hundreds of their people, many of their allies and a demi-god either, which as you might imagine is a very big reason relations between both groups have never recovered, he's not agreed to pull back from their forests or seemingly to do anything to appease them, just like he did practically nothing to appease the humans in canon either.

We Grok have nothing to give them in goods that can make up for what they feel they lost and whats more they currently don't really think that coming to an agreement with orcs is even possible. We can at least try to put a dent in that assumption by returning what are essentially worthless things, but are worth so much more due to the message behind them.

In other words stop focusing on the "value" of the books, stop going with a "if I loot it its mine" attitude and try to think about the people at play here.

Worst case scenario it loses us absolutely nothing and that's coming from me.
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I don't want to. Not for this.

You're free to go ahead and try if there's an option but I won't vote for it.
 
rx915 said:
I don't want to. Not for this.

You're free to go ahead and try if there's an option but I won't vote for it.
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Why?

Your logic seems to essentially boil down to "no its mine now they can't have it back."

Something which I'd find understandable if it was in anyway unique (or healing potions), but it isn't.

We can buy replacements, we can't buy attempts at global peace.
 
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Greed leads to hoarding, hoarding leads to surprises popping up at the worst possible time, surprises lead to anger, anger... leads to suffering.

I'd say give back de bookz, ya git. Whatch' you gonna do with dem, eat them? You can read anything to learn stuff. If the Kul Tirans consider it a pile of shiny fings, I'd say we dump it on them, and RACK UP DAT GOODWILL. They're all big and civilized and diplomatic, right? That's how they band together and become stronger. Time to show dem up: our diplomacy is DA BEST! So if they don't become our allies it's their fault, and nobody will complain when they get what's coming for dem.

Too bad the Warhammer orkz are too murderous and dumb to come up with something similar. The fact that the Orcs of Azeroth are more civilised and more complex, with history, motivations etc. is refreshing.
 
Well to make my point in a new way with the new discussion.

A diplomatic nicety is showing a rather nicely painted door that both parties are well aware poop waits behind. Thus, both comfortably ignore it.

A lie by omission is about one party hiding poop behind a door, and planting flowers around the door to distract the second party from noticing there is in fact a door with poop behind it.

The current situation between Kul'tiras and the Durotaric Horde is poop. Everyone knows that, and I'm not sure it does any good to have that opened up. At least until the Plagueland situations have resolved and Grok/the BB prove they are good trusted operators in keeping the destructive elements on Azeroth down.

Then it can be worth poking that cluster. Obviously simply my opinion.


But I do wish to have options to train mages, even if the thread is disinclined to explore Arcane magic with Grok. Long term plans, but it's the most traditional "bookish/scholarly" magic. We can also probably pick up some of the broken bits of Quel'thelas in the near future to find other channels. Either unattached elves or loot. Plus, the Crusade has to have some connections with Dalaran.

So yeah. If its useful/can be done easily it's worth returning the book. Else, I'm sure we can keep it both with the few literate orcs/out of the eyes of anyone who might get pissy at "stolen goods"

Plus I like the idea of rounding up the biggest nerds in the war and telling them, "welp, every wanted to try and lob fireballs at people?"
 
Jasten said:
Then it can be worth poking that cluster. Obviously simply my opinion.
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My view is we can afford to poke with a small stick (which is what this is).

Jasten said:
even if the thread is disinclined to explore Arcane magic with Grok.
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AU CONTRAIR!

My preference has always been for arcane magic, and I was rather annoyed we won't get to do it in the near future, if for no other reason than it has reliable fast travel and teleporting swordspeople has always been a thing of mine dunno why.

If we'd found the crusade first...I probably still would have pushed for Tirion etc. since too good a chance to pass up, but a big reason I wanted to head on Theramore way was for the opportunity to maybe learn from Jania.

And nothing wrong with bookish or scholarly :D

As for elves...I'd be down to recruit some if we could, but I'm down to recruit a lot of people if we get the opportunity.
 
rx915 said:
If Onyxia pooped the bed I would rather just stay in our lane and just wait for tempers to simmer down before trying again.

You can find someone in the warband to do that.
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Agreed on avoiding the angry black dragon.

And I think it would be worth doing, but it's worth collecting all the shiny magic users haha. So you got my backing if you have a plan.


To float a potentially dumb idea, depending on how the Shadow learning with Keldran develops the BB might be able to offer something to help stave off High Elf mana addiction.

I know the Blood Elves in burning crusade are magic from a Naaru, and had the racial mana tap ability. Depending on how it goes, paying a few down on their luck arcanists to help train/teach in return for magic juice to keep from becoming wretched.

Obviously not feeding anyone souls or liquid life. But if Shadow magic is linked to pain, I could see a warrior culture like the orcs have a small subset to volunteer their pain resistance to make liquid Shadow magic or whatever.

Better yet, if it is just simply based on death/killing, the warband can have some Shadow priests harvesting it like XP as they do their normal fighting. That would be useful, but I'm sure crystallizing mana like that would be far down the magic "tech tree"

Best case is that it can be balanced by Light, both for however it is brought into being, and so that whatever High Elves drink it can have a varied diet.


@Doomed Wombat

Fair enough about the Theramore situation. I'm with you there, but I do believe that given the circumstances East is better. Theres an alt universe out there where Grok'mash got banished by the BB instead of Thrall. That one would likely involve Thrall putting in a good word with his human friends down South, and a much more Arcane start to the proper magical learning situation.
 
Jasten said:
And I think it would be worth doing, but it's worth collecting all the shiny magic users haha. So you got my backing if you have a plan.
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While the war band doesn't have anyone special among the new meat, I don't think it means none of them have the ability to learn what Grok's trying to learn as a personal action.

That's something to consider for training and the strategic meeting question one of the existing magic users if they're interested in expanding their craft or finding someone interested in it.
 
rx915 said:
While the war band doesn't have anyone special among the new meat, I don't think it means none of them have the ability to learn what Grok's trying to learn as a personal action.

That's something to consider for training and the strategic meeting question one of the existing magic users if they're interested in expanding their craft or finding someone interested in it.
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The roll for searching through said new meat was also pretty rotten though. So its worthwhile to take another sort, but hopefully some things float to the top through combat actions as well.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Keldran has to say about his way of using magic, and if he levels about the broader extent of his abilities. A full action to say what is acceptable/what is not/ what is to be used in a total emergency while putting together a circle of apprentices might be useful depending on what is learned. The roll is a little below average, so I would bet that means there will be enough info to make a somewhat informed call.

The best source for Light imo is still asking the Crusade for some priests, then bringing them along on some battle actions. Nothing is good for spreading faith like hanging in a foxhole together, and then further Light users could be sourced from the orcs who find their way there through their own experiences. I think its worthwhile to make that distinction, especially if the approach to the Light learned here is as overtly religious as it appears.


Edit: Also upon reflection I do believe that the past actions pointed out the Trolls as a source of Arcane learning as well. That would mean Neeru would be a possible source. However, I do believe that channel would be better for getting warlocks then sourcing rare arcanists from the Darkspear. I'm always a fan of warlocks, but I'm not sure its worth integrating that magical source until the BB has other options. Both image and balance wise.
 
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rx915 said:
It's probably easier if it's non magic so you get more sneaky gits from the shattered hand expert or someone that's more of an orc bookworm to be the scholar.
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Would be an amusing reaction if the visit Scarlet Monastery action had won.

"They had a huge library! And dozens of people who just sit around learning from them!"

Points to random moderately intelligent looking orc.

"You, you are our new librarian."

Chucks single book on magic at the dudes head.

"Get cracking."

Peon looks at big tome, looks at boss, sighs, wanders off muttering.
"I can't even read."
 
Jasten said:
Would be an amusing reaction if the visit Scarlet Monastery action had won.

"They had a huge library! And dozens of people who just sit around learning from them!"

Points to random moderately intelligent looking orc.

"You, you are our new librarian."

Chucks single book on magic at the dudes head.

"Get cracking."

Peon looks at big tome, looks at boss, sighs, wanders off muttering.
"I can't even read."
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Doesn't hurt to try and find fresh meat willing to advance literacy training. They want to advance more in a clan then start cracking the books.
 
Jasten said:
I know the Blood Elves in burning crusade are magic from a Naaru, and had the racial mana tap ability. Depending on how it goes, paying a few down on their luck arcanists to help train/teach in return for magic juice to keep from becoming wretched.

Obviously not feeding anyone souls or liquid life. But if Shadow magic is linked to pain, I could see a warrior culture like the orcs have a small subset to volunteer their pain resistance to make liquid Shadow magic or whatever.

Better yet, if it is just simply based on death/killing, the warband can have some Shadow priests harvesting it like XP as they do their normal fighting. That would be useful, but I'm sure crystallizing mana like that would be far down the magic "tech tree"

Best case is that it can be balanced by Light, both for however it is brought into being, and so that whatever High Elves drink it can have a varied diet.
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The manatap thing is something they learned from Illidan, and they're using mana from a naaru by literally eating the poor bastard until they turn into a void god.

For obvious reasons they did not continue partaking!

Also no not affiliated with the Burning Legion, eating M'uru is where blood elf paladins initially come from.

And let us not go down the route of the dark eldar please. It is a very bad idea to have a population sustained by the pain of others, even setting aside what shadow/void does when it merely passes through your brain, never mind if you literally ingest it. Actually never mind, go a head. I'm sure they won't end up like the fel elves. 100% sure.

Furthermore it goes back to what I said, this an excessive amount of research to find potential (and highly dubious) civilian applications for at best liquified murder.

As for gems, sure it might be down the tech tree, on the other hand we know it is down the tech tree of arcane magic and is not even that far down it Conjure Mana Gem

Or it causes a matter-antimattereque reaction and obliterates the poor sod that tries. The modern incarnation of the sun well is arcane/light based and even without that it can be restored through several methods.

Jasten said:
Fair enough about the Theramore situation. I'm with you there, but I do believe that given the circumstances East is better. Theres an alt universe out there where Grok'mash got banished by the BB instead of Thrall. That one would likely involve Thrall putting in a good word with his human friends down South, and a much more Arcane start to the proper magical learning situation.
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I agree which is why I ultimately went here.

Jasten said:
A full action to say what is acceptable/what is not/ what is to be used in a total emergency while putting together a circle of apprentices might be useful depending on what is learned. The roll is a little below average, so I would bet that means there will be enough info to make a somewhat informed call.

The best source for Light imo is still asking the Crusade for some priests, then bringing them along on some battle actions. Nothing is good for spreading faith like hanging in a foxhole together, and then further Light users could be sourced from the orcs who find their way there through their own experiences. I think its worthwhile to make that distinction, especially if the approach to the Light learned here is as overtly religious as it appears.


Edit: Also upon reflection I do believe that the past actions pointed out the Trolls as a source of Arcane learning as well. That would mean Neeru would be a possible source. However, I do believe that channel would be better for getting warlocks then sourcing rare arcanists from the Darkspear. I'm always a fan of warlocks, but I'm not sure its worth integrating that magical source until the BB has other options. Both image and balance wise.
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Keldran: "Well I only know a few spells, mostly cantrips and I can make legs twitch, far as I got. As for what it could do, well I know if you kill several hundred Necrolytes and are Gul'dan you can make some death knights."

Once again he knows pretty much nothing that is why he is alive. The most advanced thing he is aware of is also the same reason he wasn't able to learn more!

Groan.

Its ****ing happening again!

How fortunate for us then Tirion is an ordained priest and one of the most experienced users of the light on the entirety of azeroth.

And no I think most people down a fox hole are more concerned with the reason they are down a fox hole, not interested in nattering. As for making a religion out of this, you say that like Grok is going to convert instead of fitting the light into his preexisting faith.

Yes I know I've pointed it out, no no warlocks FFS.
 
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I suppose that would be a Training Warband action then.

Actually, you probably hit upon the best action for long term benefit.

Organize a scholarly circle, or some actual BB official time to have all the trainers in one area.

If it works, it can be a place to recruit logistic clerks and things from in addition to future magically inclined sorts. Plus it starts to chip away at the unorganized nature of the Clan system. At least in the BB. It will take awhile to get any sort of actual literature of merit in native orcish tongues, might as well get cracking early.


Edit: To not double post.

@Doomed Wombat

The similarities between the Mana crystals and Soul gems is pretty interesting to me. Thats why I would be inclined to think that there are other stable forms for each type of energy. Plus, Suramar uses Shadow as its own thing. With FD's comments on the wide space in that sphere, I'm inclined to think there is a space where use of said power is a Good Thing. I agree with you that there are also alot of uses that are Bad Things. Hence the education actions, to learn/make those decisions. I would rather not have any Old God shenannigans, so being able to find the line between Tentacley Goopy Magic and Shadowy Spooky magic is worthwhile.

As to the Naaru, I recall something about it undergoing said torture willingly in some sort of weird convoluted gambit? Probably nonsense to chalk up to "Drama!" writing. I do recall the dark side switch, which is basically where most of my interest in Shadow comes from. Both because the Naaru are cool conceptually, but they also show that there is space to argue that these weird Magics in the universe exist independently of whatever uses them. Hence desiring to see the difference between a Dark Naaru's power and that of the weird Bug People. Hence desiring to see the difference between Illidan's use of Fel and that used by Sargaras.

Because Sargaras is literally just a big arcane dude who switched over to Fel. There's likely alot there outside that sphere too. The Void Gods are literally outside of reality, so they can be as benign but different, or actively malevolent as the controlling writers want at the time. Etc etc, its elephants the whole way down.

Thats the cool part about being mortal in a world with so many deities. To take Tirion and the humans, they only exist due to Arcane Titans making the Vykrul forrunners, the Old Gods Cursing them to Flesh, then time taking its course to change them. (Wild or spirit I suppose?) And now many worship the Light as their primary benefactor/faith. So while Tirion is a fantastic dude and I'm psyched to interact with him, he still only knows his version of how reality works.
 
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