Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

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Like...we didn't cause half of it, but Grok actions have gone a long way.
Honestly the main part of the whole "agency" thing that really breaks my SOD is that Grok's actions are almost far too impactful.

Sure nothing Grok does matters in so far as advancing his goals is concerned, but the blow back from his fuck ups sure as shit do resonate across the entire flipping world.
 
There's pretty much no point thinking of spells at this stage beyond a general understanding of what the light can do, when all we're doing is twiddling our thumbs going "man it'd be nice to have any kind of magic."
Well in part the reason I stick x2 in there is because you have said numerous times that taking the same action multiple times creates better results due to focusing more attention on it.
Thanks for clarifying, I'd say to take it slow in that case and do 1 action rather than 2. One of my stipulations was 'if logical', for example build defences x2 would produce more defences.

I'm generally mindful of the danger of expectations here so I wouldn't want you to think you can just put actions into it and you'll become a paladin. Not saying you're saying that but yea I imagine you get me.

I think this is what Grok and the whole Quest is all about: For every good deed, we create two negatives. First that whole screw up in the Dreadmist that lead to Orgrimmar getting wreck and our exile now to events in Lordaeron. (An even more bitter and extreme Forsaken.)
Honestly the main part of the whole "agency" thing that really breaks my SOD is that Grok's actions are almost far too impactful.
I'd question this. This is of course Agency Quest but I've also been emphasising that other people have agency as well. For example,

if you didn't picked the hunted option in chargen
if Jub had taken longer to get his army together
if the roll for the dreadmist elders hadn't been so bad indicating that they didn't like you
if youd stayed at dreadmist after you woke up following the battle
if feldad allowed you to keep the demon seed if you wanted it etc

Then sure, you'd have been able to change the current situation with Varimathras. However you didn't really have a way of knowing about it other than through ooc points otherwise. I gave no indication of what Sesk and Ishi's missions are/were, and I've always portrayed Feldad as suspicious and private.

What happened at Dreadmist is your fault collectively as the questers for picking the 'Hunted' option, but the events which that option mandated aren't necessarily Grok's fault. The demon seed isn't really yours or Grok's fault as there's not much you could have done about it. If Feldad really wanted to transport it he could just send a guy on their own. A single blademaster could certainly travel unimpeded and deliver it, your expedition wasn't required for that to happen.

Similarly, going back to the agency of others, it's not always about you. The Kolkar wanted to destroy the BB at Dreadmist yes because it was poisoning the land etc, but they also more generally wanted to destroy the Horde. You specifically being there doesn't mean it's aligned at you necessarily.

I would probably say you and Grok could be more agile and interested in events around you, that might improve your situational awareness. I've referred to the thing I've got planned, but I've also got other things going on. I'd note things like blademastering and shamaning as some of these, especially shamaning. I understand the desire to do magic stuff and yea it's powerful, but sitting by yourself meditating or reading a book does indeed prevent you from doing other stuff. This is more musing from me rather than a specific directive so don't take it as such. In one case you could prevent or prepare for things by knowing about them, in the other you could prepare more generally by investing in yourself as you have, meaning you're more prepared for unforeseen circumstances.
 
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I'm generally mindful of the danger of expectations here so I wouldn't want you to think you can just put actions into it and you'll become a paladin. Not saying you're saying that but yea I imagine you get me.
I am of the view that investing more actions into something will produce better results unless that action is entirely impossible to succeed at to begin with, but no I've never had the expectation that X number of actions will make us a paladin, my view has been that if we put in more actions the faster we might get there due to putting more focus on it.

I'd question this. This is of course Agency Quest but I've also been emphasising that other people have agency as well. For example,

if you didn't picked the hunted option in chargen
if Jub had taken longer to get his army together
if the roll for the dreadmist elders hadn't been so bad indicating that they didn't like you
if youd stayed at dreadmist after you woke up following the battle
if feldad allowed you to keep the demon seed if you wanted it etc

Then sure, you'd have been able to change the current situation with Varimathras. However you didn't really have a way of knowing about it other than through ooc points otherwise. I gave no indication of what Sesk and Ishi's missions are/were, and I've always portrayed Feldad as suspicious and private.

What happened at Dreadmist is your fault collectively as the questers for picking the 'Hunted' option, but the events which that option mandated aren't necessarily Grok's fault. The demon seed isn't really yours or Grok's fault as there's not much you could have done about it. If Feldad really wanted to transport it he could just send a guy on their own. A single blademaster could certainly travel unimpeded and deliver it, your expedition wasn't required for that to happen.

I would probably say you and Grok could be more agile and interested in events around you, that might improve your situational awareness. I've referred to the thing I've got planned, but I've also got other things going on. I'd note things like blademastering and shamaning as some of these, especially shamaning. I understand the desire to do magic stuff and yea it's powerful, but sitting by yourself meditating or reading a book does indeed prevent you from doing other stuff. This is more musing from me rather than a specific directive so don't take it as such. In one case you could prevent or prepare for things by knowing about them, in the other you could prepare more generally by investing in yourself as you have, meaning you're more prepared for unforeseen circumstances.
That's not really a great show for the agency of others, seeing as three of the five are things we/Grok are responsible for. Its also very hard to feel their agency when their opinions of Grok can shift on the roll of a dice.

As for the demon seed, yes more OOC info to be sure, but it doesn't take much of a brain to know that he's selling the thing off for two reasons and you've been dropping hints about something we're going to hate in the near future relating to whatever Fel dad's doing to keep Grok "safe." How am I not meant to come to that conclusion when the reason feldad's selling it off to begin with is implied to be the fact that he's rethinking his allegiances due to Grok's actions.

As for the final bit :eyeroll:

Currently we're too weak to actually get much done if we go out, we lack the influence to get shit done and while going out to do stuff is meant to be the best way to progress unless you've forgotten we've stalled on all fucking fronts!

We can't advance magic, we can't advanced blade master and the kind of battles we are fighting are not going to advance any of the things we need if we want to git gud so we can get back to grinding, because we're not learning magic, tactics, stealthy or anything else!

We're not learning how to get better at social stuff through social encounters or advancing slaying because its not undead slaying no its daemon and undead saying so doing only one gives fuck all EXP.

So we're trapped in this dumbass cycle, we need to get stronger, but we're straddling a line where most people with magic and a lot of things with no magic will fucking annihilate Grok, so we need something to give him a fighting chance, but we can't do that by sitting on our ass because that provides us with nothing in terms of exp, but we don't get experience towards what we need if we go out!

Do you see the problem here?

To give an answer to your maxim it doesn't fucking matter if we prepare by knowing or if we stay back.

If we prepare by knowing, we won't have the ability to do shit about it because we lack the skills to adequately counter the problem.

But as we're seeing, we can't stay home either, since then shit gets to happen anyway we get blind sided, and we still get shit all done!

To go back to the old chestnut its very frustrating to know that we're completely fucked no matter what we do, because all our skills are locked, Grok drew the genetic short straw and the only way to fix it is to get demon steroids which damn him in the long run.

Yeah "agency" or to translate it "the ability to choose how you fuck up and loose."

Really feeling the agency, but then again I expect the 3 means Onyxia has either successfully mind controlled Grok or turned the crusade against him using both her and their "agency" so really looking forward to that display of AGENCY!
 
...
I'm not so sure the issue is LACK of Agency, so much as the issue is our agency is more or less being...
Like, we're being 'Handled' instead of actually getting to truly point our efforts toward something that MATTERS of our own inititive. And to me, part of that is actually the 'noble upbrining' picked out in Chargen- you don't let your Prince run off and do risky things! That's how he dies and you're out a Prince!
And part OF that being handled is making sure Grok doesn't have the information he needs to truly do good. Now that said I don't THINK he's actually going to end up going complete 'good man doomed because the forces of evil get X amount of named characters turned traitor for free.' because there's a difference between being 'handled' where your desires get smashed into the reality of 'can't let this guy get killed' by other people, and straight up 'you have no choice, you do as I say!'
...
I WILL Say however, that I feel like if we wanted to NOT be a puppet of the Burning Blade, we should have held our tongue instead of taking the fall for the Clan- we'd have been on the outs with them, but on the flipside we'd be in a position perhaps where Thrall might be able to use Grok as a deniable asset-as in, sending Grok to do things Thrall would LIKE to see done but can't associate with the Horde or his position as Warchief. It would have left Grok in a better position to build himself up, as opposed to once again getting dipped in the Burning Blade's Fel-soaked shenanigans.
 
...
I'm not so sure the issue is LACK of Agency, so much as the issue is our agency is more or less being...
Like, we're being 'Handled' instead of actually getting to truly point our efforts toward something that MATTERS of our own inititive. And to me, part of that is actually the 'noble upbrining' picked out in Chargen- you don't let your Prince run off and do risky things! That's how he dies and you're out a Prince!
And part OF that being handled is making sure Grok doesn't have the information he needs to truly do good. Now that said I don't THINK he's actually going to end up going complete 'good man doomed because the forces of evil get X amount of named characters turned traitor for free.' because there's a difference between being 'handled' where your desires get smashed into the reality of 'can't let this guy get killed' by other people, and straight up 'you have no choice, you do as I say!'
...
I WILL Say however, that I feel like if we wanted to NOT be a puppet of the Burning Blade, we should have held our tongue instead of taking the fall for the Clan- we'd have been on the outs with them, but on the flipside we'd be in a position perhaps where Thrall might be able to use Grok as a deniable asset-as in, sending Grok to do things Thrall would LIKE to see done but can't associate with the Horde or his position as Warchief. It would have left Grok in a better position to build himself up, as opposed to once again getting dipped in the Burning Blade's Fel-soaked shenanigans.
Ya see there's a big difference between that and what I'm complaining about.

We can still accomplish things that actually matter even if our agency is being handled.

What I'm complaining about is that we're never going to have enough skill to actually accomplish anything, but we also can't sit around to get those skills, then things happen anyway.

Supposedly we're supposed to get more EXP from fights to make up the difference, but we can't advance meaningfully in any area to get more strength, because they're all fucking locked or are the kind of actions where we cannot meaningfully advance them by going out to get into fights like magic or social skills, the latter of which are even worse because doing social does not improve them.

Or to put it another way, we can't properly succeed at any of our major goals, but our enemies sure as hell can and we've no means of bridging the gap in time to make a difference before everything goes and gets ****ed and the difficulty spikes again.

In other words, its not a story thing, its a fundamental problem of how the game is designed, Grok's choices have never really mattered in this because he's always been too weak to make them meaningful, but lacks the ability to change that in time, with the build selected only emphasising that even fucking harder!

As for the other bits specifically since we're being honest about what we were expecting I was expecting exile to actually fucking mean something, which would have dealt with the issue of the Neeru acting like a weird overly protective yandere to an extent by virtue of getting most of the clan to fuck off.

Instead we ended up stuck with even more of the feckers.
 
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exile to actually fucking mean something
It does mean something-It means we're deep into the Burning Blade, in the 'inner circle' that's honest about being aligned with the Leigon.
As I understood it, speaking up and leaving the Burning Blade as part of the Horde means Thrall can only under the table censor them-Grok forced him into pulling his punches.
Conversely, given Grok's actions during the crisis I could see Thrall reaching out to the boy once he was sure Grok was on his side, so to speak, even if his personal desire of 'restore Blademasters' was problematic. Or alternatively, used to contain the collateral damage/ensure the Horde has a way to keep what's useful of what's left of the Burning Blade's traditions. Maybe I should have spoken up more back then, but what's done is done. Time to wait until the next 'break point' so to speak, to see if we can get off the 'handles' train or if we're going to have to like, lose an arm or our life for our 'redemption' scene.
 
It does mean something-It means we're deep into the Burning Blade, in the 'inner circle' that's honest about being aligned with the Leigon.
As I understood it, speaking up and leaving the Burning Blade as part of the Horde means Thrall can only under the table censor them-Grok forced him into pulling his punches.
Conversely, given Grok's actions during the crisis I could see Thrall reaching out to the boy once he was sure Grok was on his side, so to speak, even if his personal desire of 'restore Blademasters' was problematic. Or alternatively, used to contain the collateral damage/ensure the Horde has a way to keep what's useful of what's left of the Burning Blade's traditions. Maybe I should have spoken up more back then, but what's done is done. Time to wait until the next 'break point' so to speak, to see if we can get off the 'handles' train or if we're going to have to like, lose an arm or our life for our 'redemption' scene.
Yeah and that's the thing, the reason so many of us went for throwing Grok under the bus was because the possibility of it making them or at least fel dad reevaluate their loyalties, even before the issue of all the potential portals to the twisting nether vanishing like a fart in the wind (also because their evil that means they'd be able to operate without issues for years and create massive super armies, cause that's always how it ****ing works.)

As for Thrall, given how frequently the quest smacks him with the idiot ball, I doubt that. We committed major heresy to his shamanism tradition after all and its not like us not speaking up does anything to confirm that we're anymore "on his side."

If anything he'd be far more cautious about it since he'd have essentially sentenced the burning blade to death, so anyone with social skills would realise that he might have earned his ire.

Then again, see Thrall idiot ball, but ya know.

"He'S a PoLiTiCiAn."
 
It does mean something-It means we're deep into the Burning Blade, in the 'inner circle' that's honest about being aligned with the Leigon.
As I understood it, speaking up and leaving the Burning Blade as part of the Horde means Thrall can only under the table censor them-Grok forced him into pulling his punches.
Conversely, given Grok's actions during the crisis I could see Thrall reaching out to the boy once he was sure Grok was on his side, so to speak, even if his personal desire of 'restore Blademasters' was problematic. Or alternatively, used to contain the collateral damage/ensure the Horde has a way to keep what's useful of what's left of the Burning Blade's traditions. Maybe I should have spoken up more back then, but what's done is done. Time to wait until the next 'break point' so to speak, to see if we can get off the 'handles' train or if we're going to have to like, lose an arm or our life for our 'redemption' scene.

Yeah and that's the thing, the reason so many of us went for throwing Grok under the bus was because the possibility of it making them or at least fel dad reevaluate their loyalties, even before the issue of all the potential portals to the twisting nether vanishing like a fart in the wind (also because their evil that means they'd be able to operate without issues for years and create massive super armies, cause that's always how it ****ing works.)

As for Thrall, given how frequently the quest smacks him with the idiot ball, I doubt that. We committed major heresy to his shamanism tradition after all and its not like us not speaking up does anything to confirm that we're anymore "on his side."

If anything he'd be far more cautious about it since he'd have essentially sentenced the burning blade to death, so anyone with social skills would realise that he might have earned his ire.

Then again, see Thrall idiot ball, but ya know.

"He'S a PoLiTiCiAn."

Thrall reaching out to Grok would really depend on this Lordaeron arc at the moment.

Given it been mentioned Thrall would very much like to trade the Forsaken for a second Lordaeron (Which would completely change the nature of the game and the Horde very self. ) if we can somehow actually do that, or something noteworthy of that manner.

It possible. Heck, I voted for Theramore because helping Jaina and dealings with Alliance diplomacy would have helped get Grok back into the Horde.
 
I know what the Necromancer's tower is you don't need to explain it to me.
but other people didn't know about this, and are grateful for the explanation :smile:

In one case you could prevent or prepare for things by knowing about them
...
because we're not learning magic, tactics, stealthy or anything else!
...
if we prepare by knowing, we won't have the ability to do shit about it because we lack the skills to adequately counter the problem.
But as we're seeing, we can't stay home either, since then shit gets to happen anyway we get blind sided, and we still get shit all done!
Well, we do know how to prepare a sapta and do dark shamanism. So many of us were enthusiastic about that :eyeroll:. Maybe that stuff can be redirected / redeemed somewhat?
Magic right now is either T h e L i g h t or reconnecting with the elements. No shadow 4 u, because it would waste actions and make us weaker. I am ok with it, I just wish we had more tools to tackle problems apart from Warband + Sword + wishing really hard we could do magic.
If it doesn't hurt our training (and socializing, and info-gathering) overmuch I would still be willing to learn stealth from Kartha. I mean, we have basic stealth because I proposed it once. I did have this idea of entering places we are not supposed to enter; listening to discussions; getting information, etc.. And it doesn't need massive amounts of mysticism and introspection to accomplish.

you don't let your Prince run off and do risky things! That's how he dies and you're out a Prince!
Where do you think you are, Westeros? Orcs of the Horde go out and prove themselves, ya git, they don't sit on a fancy throne o' swords, instead swords are nice additions for their collection.

It would have left Grok in a better position to build himself up, as opposed to once again getting dipped in the Burning Blade's Fel-soaked shenanigans.
The involvement with the Burning Blade was inevitable, Mr. Anderson @Zaealix. No exile -> you are by Neeru's side as everything falls down around you.
Thrall reaching out to Grok would really depend on this Lordaeron arc at the moment.
Good point.
 
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Currently we're too weak to actually get much done if we go out, we lack the influence to get shit done and while going out to do stuff is meant to be the best way to progress unless you've forgotten we've stalled on all fucking fronts!

I must admit I find your posts quite hard to respond to sometimes. I don't to get into a big reply currently as I'd rather get on with writing, but I'll note that you're sometimes, indeed quite frequently, incredibly pessimistic which I don't think are particularly reasonable. Certainly, be suspicious of someone like Dathrohan or Feldad, but don't assume that they're behind every problem or are skulking about all the time doing evil things. You also have quite high expectations. Is Grok unskilled? No, he's pretty young but he's better than most soldiers in some cases. I cited the Batman Problem in the OP, that you're not Superman shouldn't be surprising. You're not locked on either Blademastering or on Shamanism, this should be apparent from the text and I know you read the chapters fairly closely so I'm assuming it's just your pessimism distracting you. Notably, Sesk directly told you that you needed commensurate physical abilities to be a blademaster. I don't see how this would be surprising. The Blademasters are the finest warriors in a race of already capable warriors. I have specifically noted your shortcomings and how to improve them through the characters, just like I had characters warn you off Dark Shamanism.
The march isn't long, only a couple of days at a run which apparently tires them a little when they have to run around obstacles rather than sprinting through the treetops, dancing on leaves and branches.

Once again you're ready to fall by the end of the run, only keeping up with great effort as you trail behind them, your glaive in your hand.
"Akinos' teaching is plain in your way of battle." Sesk remarks, "But to become a Blademaster takes years of effort. You have the strength of will perhaps, but you lack the physical capacity, the maturity of skill, and naturally the strength that magic gives a warrior."
Notably, your physical conditioning is lagging behind. Yes you're as good as a profession like a veteran soldier, but Blademasters aren't just soldiers are they? In no way does this not make you a capable warrior, it just doesn't get you to the level of adult Blademasters. You will still need magic and just more experience fighting more things which are actually challenging rather than just cutting down waves of zombies, but you're still going pretty well.

Comparably, Shamanism yes is locked 'officially' on the Character sheet, but once again:

And as they sing you find yourself affected also. You feel the wind pick up around you, a feeling you've not felt for months settles on you and in alarm you grip your sword in its sheath, yet no attack comes. In fact, the chant calms you, your heartbeat slows, the world seems to close in on Fairbanks and the undead woman, his light seems to touch her, a faint music audible in the undertow of their song.
And then you stand, forcing your anger deeper into a righteous fury.
Firstly Grok is starting to feel stuff again. He's working through his issues, involving himself in things, playing a useful part, he's feeling emotions, he's starting to feel the elements again.

I understand that sometimes I'm pretty subtle in particular things, and I enjoy that as a writer. I'm trying to craft arcs and narratives without having to interrupt them with '+5 Light, +5% to not being a mopey git'. You often assert things which aren't so. For example, Thrall having the idiot ball. I'm not aware of him doing anything that could be classified as such, generally he's taken a fairly sensible path from the actions available to him, he's outmanoeuvred Feldad for example in the first Orgrimmar chapter. I'm trying to depict him as I generally see him, a capable enough war leader but unsuited to the challenges of the Horde at peace. You needn't be overly suspicious of unreliable narrators or similar, but for example for the most recent events regarding the Forsaken, Grok is narrating his own view, not Thrall's.

There's also a more general point about abilities and choices that someone else brought up but I can't find the wording. Yes indeed Grok is limited in his abilities. He lacks the skills for, and would generally be disinclined to sneaking about or solving issues with intrigue. While I've developed my ideas regarding traits and similar since the chargen, I refuse to completely ignore or invalidate their results. You aren't locked into any of them forever, you could pick up a gun and shoot it, but yes it takes significant time to learn another profession. It takes reasonable effort to learn a new way of doing things, but that doesn't mean you can't try and generally I'm generous toward said efforts. There were specific agency-giving traits in chargen, for example the mercantile or devious ones, which I gave to see if you wanted any way to deal with problems that wasn't the usual orc ways. This doesn't mean you have to go around battering stuff with your sword, you can indeed solve things through diplomacy. When Thrall did his moment Grok successfully defused it. He didn't try and headbutt the warchief for dominance or something. What sort of problems do you expect to solve? You came here to kill the Scourge, you are indeed killing the Scourge.
 
I don't to get into a big reply currently as I'd rather get on with writing
Fair nuff.

I must admit I find your posts quite hard to respond to sometimes.
And for that I apologise, as you noted I am indeed extremely pessimistic about pretty much everything. It is my natural reaction to most things, especially if they're good for me personally.

but don't assume that they're behind every problem or are skulking about all the time doing evil things.
I'm not assuming them specifically or even any one person. I have however been trained to see every choice in the quest as impactful with the potential to have negative consequences.", as it turns out even the decision to take a book we collectively forgot about could blow back up in our face if not handled correctly.

I am paranoid about everything we do because the lesson I have learned isn't to count the bonuses, it's to wait and see how we've messed something up because of our actions. Stay away and try to establish ourselves instead of rushing in did result in temporarily helping the farmstead, but in the process, at least 450 other people who are our very explicit allies are now dead.

The only time I think we've ever had an option not come with a sting in the tail was when we got a nat 100 with Vok'fon. There's some which are still developing, but I'm fairly confident I can guess where they're going to go.

So to reiterate, I do not blame every problem we face on a mysterious group of intriguers (merely the ones I can prove, this is WoW after all), I am however conditioned to expect that every choice Grok makes will come back to bite him, because so far almost every decision has even if its not in the way I anticipate, since to give all credit where its due you do keep me on my toes in that regard.

As for high expectations, sort of. Its not so much that my expectations are high as much as it is an anticipation of getting splattered against a windshield. As you say we're mostly fighting against mindless shamblers, but had immense trouble dealing with an oversized fruit bat. You've said in the past Grok would have trouble taking on an Ogre, so I go "we're fecked if an abomination turns up."

I'm not expecting to be a blademaster yet*, but I am expressing frustration with being told that the best way to improve is to do the fighty fights, but then have all the skills that improve from the fighty fights get locked, as I somehow don't expect fighting a relatively short battle to equal 100 crunches, so its just annoying to see what is metaphorically wasted exp when we need all we can get.
*Though the wow timeline continues to be an excellent demonstrator of how age seems to matter very little, with Thrall having become a full shamen and big ol warrior who'd liberated the clans by the age of at most 17. Arthas is comparatively reasonable, he was 20 when the events of WC3 go down.

As for feeling things, a large chunk is my own impatience there I'll freely admit, but emotions? Those were never gone. They're not good indicators of Grok's improvement, when he was never the most emotional person before, and we were seeing that he still had them even before he got onto the blimp, feeling happy talking to his friends, interested and curious at the debates of magic going as he described what happened and embarrassed when his father laid a wut on him for not understanding the bloodstone he had and so on. Nor did he ever not involve himself in things, mostly being held back by injuries rather than a lack of motivation. Neither of these things are indicative that he isn't depressed, I just don't see touting them as proof he's getting better, especially since what cut him off from the elements was personal self loathing and a feeling of not being worthy.

What has happened to Brill does not strike me as helping him at all in that regard given his reaction at the end there.

For Thrall, he outmanoeuvred feldad, (after failing in the first place, wonderful showing from Azeroth's most powerful Shamen there) and was subsequently outmanoeuvred by Grok of all people, while the result of his manuvering seems to have been an attempt to merely return things to the status quo and not fix the issue. And I've already made my views on how the forsaken are being handled by him pretty clear. His issues with handling the horde at peace are problems, but they're not the issues on display here, nor are they ones that have ever been addressed in WoW. As for unreliable narrator, this is true, but I am able to use what I know of the setting (both canon and this one) to try and figure these things out.

Indeed we are killing scourge, as you've also noted until now we've been killing the weakest scourge. As a result I'm dreading the casualty list we're going to get from tangoing with potentially 2 elite banshees, ghosts, a ghost worg, multiple sentient undead backed up by their minions, 1-2 actual necromancers with one being a proper representative of the scourge all with next to no magic the necrolict and blademasters likely thinking this is below them. Of course if Tirion ends up tagging along it'll end up looking like a level 110 escorting a level 5 through the zone.

However, I think you missed my grumbling, I've not bee complaining about our inability to master a skill in a month, but we are constrained by an inability to catch up with the difficulty curve. Our utility against the undead is mostly against the undead that are too weak to make killing them have, otherwise we're going to end up bleeding our forces incredibly quickly into uselessness, assuming Grok and his friends don't die first and our social skills are from good enough to make a major difference in the areas we're dealing with either. Grok sure as heck ain't going to be replicating what he did against Thrall.

If you want read it after you're done if you're not then no harm no foul etc.
 
You were even able to examine Baneshadow's Sword on your journey. You find time to experiment with it, finding that you can set it aflame for as long as you desire, with no apparent limit to the length of time the fire will burn for.
Were able, or are able to examine the sword? And do we find time, or did we find time to experiment with it?
The tense seems to flip flop around the place a fair bit, kinda confusing to read.
 
Just finished Durotar 3.0 and I have to say, the rolls are really ruining the reading, especially once the combat starts.

The writing on its own seems good, but it's hard to really judge it fairly when most of the chapters comes across as a checklist with everything given a category and a score before being filled in with a paragraph. This isn't terrible for most of it, but becomes nearly unbearable once the fight starts.

The rolls and attack descriptions absolutely break the flow of the writing, and more than that SPOIL the writing. Seriously, every single part of the fight is spoiled before it can be read, "you attack, it goes well : paragraph follows. they attack, it goes badly : paragraph follows" half way through the action piece I made a conscious effort to ignore and skip over the rolls which helped a lot, but man, it was basically unreadable in the form it's in.
 
Just finished Durotar 3.0 and I have to say, the rolls are really ruining the reading, especially once the combat starts.

The writing on its own seems good, but it's hard to really judge it fairly when most of the chapters comes across as a checklist with everything given a category and a score before being filled in with a paragraph. This isn't terrible for most of it, but becomes nearly unbearable once the fight starts.

The rolls and attack descriptions absolutely break the flow of the writing, and more than that SPOIL the writing. Seriously, every single part of the fight is spoiled before it can be read, "you attack, it goes well : paragraph follows. they attack, it goes badly : paragraph follows" half way through the action piece I made a conscious effort to ignore and skip over the rolls which helped a lot, but man, it was basically unreadable in the form it's in.
Fractious was figuring things out at that point.

The number of rolls goes down soon after that.
 
Another teaser, a couple more actions to write on this one.




"So this is a Murloc is it?"

Vark is holding a small amphibian creature by the leg as it flails and tries to turn to bite him while the big orc looks down at it sceptically.

"Why don't the sharks eat them, do you think?" he asks.

The waters of Durotar and the Echo Isles were hazardous for children, though less so for adults because of the plethora of creatures that lived around the coasts. The crabmen, the Makrura to use their proper name, were largely immune to the sharks' attacks but that was because of their shells, you can't imagine a creature such as the one Vark hold being able to survive in the same way.

"He had a spear." you reply, "Maybe they fight them?"

Vark looks even more sceptical, "They'd be taken in one bite!"

You think about it, probably, but it also occurs to you as you think that perhaps sharks of the sort back home simply don't inhabit the waters around Lordaeron. "Let it go, we'll follow it back."

It's been told to you that murlocs are difficult to actually eliminate, but that the destruction of their villages is often enough to make them move on. They're a pest, not an apocalypse, but they're enough of a distraction and a danger along the rivers that Tirion's noted them to you.

The creature sprints back through the brush, limbs flapping in a way that looks truly ridiculous, shouting a gurgling cry as it flees. Happily the call is loud enough for you and Vok'fon to hear and you find yourself amidst sandy dunes in the north of the province, crawling to the low summit of one rise and looking down.

Before you is a small collection of seaweed and driftwood huts, many more of the fish-folk are wandering about, some of them starting in alarm when their scared comrade rushes in.

"Can we stop them escaping somehow?" you murmur.

"They'll run into the sea when they see us." Vark replies.

"When dey see you maybey!" Vok'fon grins and you all laugh softly.

"I'll take Sorek in." you say, "They'll outnumber us, think themselves more secure. Split up, take each village in turn, hit them from three sides."

The plan is hatched and you slink back to the warband and give the orders.

Murlocs, as it turns out, are exactly as you predicted them to be. They gesticulate and growl, one bearing a long kitchen knife like a broadsword, and eventually they charge you and the aspirants, only to be decimated as soon as they meet you in combat. You leap forward, the form of the serpent in your strike, cleaving through the front rank and their scavenging champion's eye widen before it's death. The Murlocs burn at the Fireblade's touch, their oily skin igniting even as the aspirants follow you, each strike mortal.

And swiftly it's over, the longer legs of your warriors running the creatures down before they can reach the sea.

The scene is replicated across a long stretch of the shore and within a day there are none of the Murlocs left. The strategy is broadly successful in all cases except Vark's assignment, with the Murlocs fleeing at the sight of him before he's even able to reach them.

"What d'you make of this?" Scorn asks, beckoning you over once you've joined up with the others.

You find a knot of orcs looking over a grisly carcass.

"It's a goblin." you remark in surprise. Indeed, the green skin and pointed ears, the size of the body, as well as a few scraps of cloth left from the Murloc's feast, all make the race of the creature apparent, but it doesn't get you any closer to knowing what it's doing there in the first place, certainly you can't imagine why a goblin would be in such a place.

But in the end you move on.

The next stronghold of difficulty to the Crusade's success is Garren's Haunt. There you battle Gnolls, hunched undead creatures, their bodies visibly rotting as they cackle at you. These at least you're familiar with as a few have made their way to Kalimdor, though you've no idea where they come from originally. These are the Rot Hide clan and you put an end to their corpse snatching activities and service to the Scourge, but just like the Murlocs they don't last long, falling beneath your blades.

You take losses though, three warriors dead, two to undead spellwork, another to a large animated scarecrow which lumbers across the fields, reeking of dark magic.

Keldran proves his worth in the battle, waving his hands and muttering dark words, undoing the magics of the Gnolls and the scarecrow both, disrupting the later enough for you to set the Fireblade to it.

The burning follows, you make pyres for the fallen, piling the weapons of their enemies beneath them in tribute, pulling down the decrepit farmhouses for fuel.

Sorek finds his way to your side after the rites and you turn to him, "There's something between you and the Blademasters." you say, "Speak."

"We…" the Blackrock begins, "We are discontent."

You stay silent, gazing into the pyrelight.

"We joined this expedition willingly, and I don't complain about it. I know you wish to avenge Akinos and so do we, the honour of the blade demands it, in time I know you intend to go into Alterac, but I suppose we also hoped to hone our skills. We're stagnant and when we see you or the Blademasters in battle the gulf between us is clear, it shames us… I went to Ishi, asked him if he'd train us as he was you but he just laughed in my face."

You grunt in acknowledgement. Your mind working through the issue.

The Blademasters were acknowledged as the finest warriors in the Horde, better fighters than the most skilful Thunderlords or the most savage Warsong. You knew all too well the desire of orcs to emulate them and you knew you were privileged to be one yourself.

In training anyway…

There were two issues, the first, that Sesk and Ishi hadn't the interest in teaching and passing on their traditions that Akinos had. The later was unusual in that respect, as you'd found in your survey of the Blademasters, but that wasn't all. Sorek had committed one of the taboos of your people, trying to learn the secrets of another clan.

The Thunderlords had their battle language, the Bonechewers and Blackrock had the secrets of alchemy and steel respectively, the Burning Blade… the skill Sorek and the other sought.

When Blackhand reformed the Horde he'd deepened the segregations of ancient tradition, he'd set the smaller clans like your own to particular tasks, the Burning Blade having the commission and supplying of exceptional single warriors, magical fighters and mage-killers.

There'd always been close connections between particular clans, for example the one that existed between the Burning Blade and the Blackrock, but it simply wasn't done to ask to learn the secrets of others.

But perhaps you had a solution, "I cannot order him to teach you." you reply, and Sorek's face is tight, "Nor would I even if I could. It would be a disgrace to share the secrets of the clan in such a way. However… However…"

And you unsheathe the Fireblade.

"This is Blackrock Iron is it not?" you ask, and naturally Sorek nods, "Our clans are as brothers, you forged for us, and we went into battle with your weapons. We rose from Grond's might corpse, we took secrets from his bones. My father claims this is made from our progenitor's spine, and I've no reason to doubt him."

You flourish the weapon slowly, running through one of the more basic motions of your clan's technique.

"I will not permit you to be taught. I cannot. However, it has always been my wish to rebuild the Blademasters, make them once again the force they were, the swords that cleaved fortresses open. I will be chief one day, in fact I suspect my father may step aside should I prove myself worthy enough, he has little patience for the duties he must fulfil. Here and now though it is my place to set policies, to guide and lead those of my clan in this land. You and the others wish to be Blademasters? You have the desire I know, you have the courage. Join me. Join us. I will welcome you all in under my banner and rather than being like brothers we'll be kin in truth."

Sorek's eager grin as he takes your hand, and he's followed by every one of the aspirants. It's isn't too unusual for orcs to change clans for various reasons, but as you conduct the necessary rites for the transfer you're surprised at the sheer enthusiasm of them all. They cut up their Blackrock tunics, sewing the orange fabric into your own banner, the flaming sabre held high, and after that they march with pride as your guards. They train with you each night and you smile each time you teach them a new technique, and when they fight there's a tangible excitement which you see running through them.
 
You'd considered your previous experiences, concentrating on fire as an aspect of balance. Fire represented a careful balance between destruction and creation, the forces in opposition yet interdependent. Fire couldn't survive without fuel and ignition, yet without fire those elements wouldn't ever be transformed as they were when aflame
Not gonna lie, fire as a 'careful balance' makes zero sense to me and should be an auto fail. Fire as transformation, destruction, light, heat yadda yadda sure. Balance, absolutely not. Fire inherently destroys balance, it consumes fuel and oxygen, it creates light and heat where there was none before, and it leaves behined Ash. None of this is balanced, its all transformation and unbalancinv whatever was before. Hell the fire is even destined by its nature to burn out and unbalance itself one last time and its last inenivatble act, having changed whatever it burnt completely.
Not sure why balance was given as an option or why voters chose it...
The life element should be the one with inherent balance, but you can't just apply whatever you want to whatever element and try to justify it afterward.
 
mmm

The Merlocks depress me, since they're relegated to the status of "meme" race and are never really explored. It'd be interesting to see the underwater civilisations of Azeroth fleshed out more, since the Merlocks, the Naga and the also mentioned Makura are all neat. The Makura and Merlock's also share a common language. The Merlocks are also interesting cause of their belief system, which reminds me of the Kua-toa from DnD albeit with less literal deity making.

Given that Makura are described as "delicious" to a lot of carnivores and Merlocks have been enslaved by the Naga there's potential for a story of underwater kingdoms of Merlocks, Makura and Naga fighting with one another, but I doubt we'll ever get to see that.

Point is I think there could be more done with them, but as stands they're mostly always aggressive fishy meme people, and that even the alliance isn't above turning sentient races into food, as Merlocks are apparently a favourite in a human stew.

The Goblins worry me, because it is weird.

However figuring out why is almost an exercise in futility, because finding a dead goblin (or gnome for that matter) in a random place is far from an uncommon occurance given their propensity for disasterous experiments.

Wince at the casulties.

The final bit...mmm its good I imagine, but I am worried about how it'll look to the black rock clan, the thrall loyalists and the horde in general.

People joining clans is one thing, I'm not sure how the culture works for specificlaly joining to learn other clans secrets, joining at the behest of an exile and then there's the PR of "the demon clan is expanding its membership."

The life element should be the one with inherent balance, but you can't just apply whatever you want to whatever element and try to justify it afterward.
Yes you absolutely can :p

And fire as an element of balance can be seen in the difference between a raging wildfire and a camp fire.

One is too much fire the other is just enough fire.

Balance doesn't have to mean literal balance in a physical sense, it can also be in the sense of how it affects everything around it.
 
*crosses arms*...
Hunh.
Finally, starting to see Grok come into his own, the Burning Blade changing hands, and hopefully purging itself of full involvement in the whole 'Leigon-followers' thing...
Now, the hard part, will be surviving the Leigon's wrath when they figure out that Grok will not bow.
 
*crosses arms*...
Hunh.
Finally, starting to see Grok come into his own, the Burning Blade changing hands, and hopefully purging itself of full involvement in the whole 'Leigon-followers' thing...
Now, the hard part, will be surviving the Leigon's wrath when they figure out that Grok will not bow.
Looks at the nuke of evil we just gave one of their prime agents still on Azeroth.

I think there's a Tom Lehre song for this.

Also what are the consequences of a clan bringing in members of another clan who may know secrets of their home people?

For the black rocks we brought in if they know of any of their smithing techniques, would there be an assumption they'd either not use or pass on their knowledge?
 
Yes you absolutely can :p

And fire as an element of balance can be seen in the difference between a raging wildfire and a camp fire.

One is too much fire the other is just enough fire.

Balance doesn't have to mean literal balance in a physical sense, it can also be in the sense of how it affects everything around it.

Your justification is undercut more then a bit by your mis definition of Balance there. That's carefully controlling what the fire Consumes, that's not balancing anything.

*crosses arms*...
Hunh.
Finally, starting to see Grok come into his own, the Burning Blade changing hands, and hopefully purging itself of full involvement in the whole 'Leigon-followers' thing...
Now, the hard part, will be surviving the Leigon's wrath when they figure out that Grok will not bow.

The Burning blade isn't changing hands here or showing any signs of it, we are just seeing Grok start to put that charisma of his to good use and gain a more permanent form of loyalty in his warrant. We haven't purged anything either, nor have we done anything to get on the Legions "stab them, stab them now" list just yet. All in all, you are reading into the events of the chapter way too much and seeing thi go that aren't there as a result.


On the matter of the Goblin corpse: Chekoves gun dictates that it's important in some way but my gut is telling me that it's nothing, just another traveler/ adventurer that ended up on the Merloc's menu, as tends to happen.
 
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Your justification is undercut more then a bit by your mis definition of Balance there. That's carefully controlling what the fire Consumes, that's not balancing anything.



The Burning blade isn't changing hands here or showing any signs of it, we are just seeing Grok start to put that charisma of his to good use and gain a more permanent form of loyalty in his warrant. We haven't purged anything either, nor have we done anything to get on the Legions "stab them, stab them now" list just yet. All in all, you are reading into the events of the chapter way too much and seeing thi go that aren't there as a result.


On the matter of the Goblin corpse: Chekoves gun dictates that it's important in some way but my gut is telling me that it's nothing, just another traveler/ adventurer that ended up on the Merloc's menu, as tends to happen.
Mis-definition?

Of Balance?

Since we're not talking about weight here, I assume then you mean to define it as a correct proportion of different elements, which does not refer to literal elements most of the time, but rather factors.

I for one consider "too much fire" or "too little fire" to be something rather important for balance and I'd hope that fire and everything else would agree that an imbalance of fire is certainly "I'm setting fires everywhere look at me go" a la Ragnaros or "Oh shit someone's just dumped an ocean into the molten core." Extreme examples, but I'd like to think you'd agree that having too much or too little of the other elements would also be out of balance as well. But then again do we really need "air." Breathing in cringe.

We shall see how Fel dad decides to overprotect. On the other hand if he is disentangling himself from the legion (which I am far from convinced of) we've committed the grave sin of being his progeny and him giving a shit about us. If an imp turns up with the message of "fireball to the face" I will not be at all surprised.

Apparently its connected to whatever thing is going to make us very upset in the near future.
 
Since more blademaster aspirants have come to being that's something to add onto the requisition list. Blademaster swords.
 
fire as a 'careful balance' makes zero sense to me
That's fair, but the themes are just that, themes. With balance I was specifically thinking of something like a fire triangle where three elements are needed to cause the flame, and there's a balance between the destructive aspect of thermal decomposition and the creative aspect of heat and light. Yes the Life element would be more relevant to balance, or water element to mutability etc, but they're broad categories.
Yea probably true. There's some interesting stuff in the rpg books about them and the sea. There's an adventure hook of hundreds of magical alliance divers attacking Naz to kidnap Azshara and use her against the Scourge somehow which I though was interesting, and there's also stuff about how the various other sea races are doing things. If you'd been going to the Broken Isles you'd have done more with them.
People joining clans is one thing, I'm not sure how the culture works for specifically joining to learn other clans secrets, joining at the behest of an exile and then there's the PR of "the demon clan is expanding its membership."
Never properly established really. Fenris Wolfbrother lost a Makgora against his father and either got exiled or just left his clan which would have been a taboo, and then eventually managed to become chief of the Thunderlords. Doomhammer hangs about with the Frostwolves to such an extent that the film just makes him a Frostwolf too. I assume it would be another taboo to specifically try and poach other clan's experts, and that could potentially lead to wars. If X clan comes and grabs your stuff you could challenge them, probably to a makgora again. Yes this system wouldn't work all the time but tribal systems are pretty stable because they self-regulate to a degree.
Apparently its connected to whatever thing is going to make us very upset in the near future.
I think the thing with Feldad that you don't know about will only make you moderately upset. There are in fact two specific things that would be annoying but what Feldad's done is only one :)
requisition list. Blademaster swords.
Probably not possible, unless you manage to get some more Blackrock ore. In theory you could get some different metals, presumably thorium could make such a sword, but you'd need help from the actual Blackrock clan to make stuff for you.

Also thanks @Doomed Wombat for the explanation, I think a lot of it's fair, just a mismatch in expectation perhaps.
 
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