thats all magic, shamisim (as well as fel, void) are the only ones that can summon beings powerful enough to change areas. arcane has shown that for nightborne and blood elves who don't have access to it they become wretched whos soul goal is to get more magic (granted since the elves were once trolls who got changed by a source of magic that might be why) also side note for arcane it is said that both the drenai being arcane users and the nightelves magic users who brought the legions attention so. Also a lot of arcane users have a high level of arrogance but not sure if thats related or just because they are pricks
as for the light well it has a strong comfirmation bias for its users, believe in the one true path (and also some light users pricks cough rejection of the gift where they try to force someone to join them against his will cough)
with the void it being the opposite of light is just chaos and corruption and the main reason most of the elemental lords are pricks
but these are the worst examples
One thing I'd like to note is that the Orcs don't need that much territory. There isn't that many of them. Hell Alterac probably had a larger human population prior to the 2nd War than all living Orcs today combined, on Azeroth or Draenor.
This talk of needing more space seems ridiculous to me.
One thing I'd like to note is that the Orcs don't need that much territory. There isn't that many of them. Hell Alterac probably had a larger human population prior to the 2nd War than all living Orcs today combined, on Azeroth or Draenor.
This talk of needing more space seems ridiculous to me.
We have to think about the future, Orcs won't always be so small, especially if they stop the constant wars and battling and when that time comes I would rather they not be crowded out by other races already moving around. That's saying nothing of the resources new lands might hold, resources that we could put to better use than others.
We wouldn't need to push others out to maintain these lands either, just institute education teaching them not to be racist against orcs and your halfway to a non-hostile society.
Also, speaking frankly, we can probably do a better job of ruling than like 90% of the inbred nobles wandering around.
well outside varian, anduin and calia (if she hasn't been killed) this generation of rulers has been idiots (yes looking at you bandits oh I mean syndiate, the nobles who refused to pay stone mason and then defias formed and had to have anduin and varian fix that, galen, just galen, and genn well lets build a massive wall to keep people not of gilneas out (not sure why but then genn ordered some mage to summom feral werewolves to defend gilneas but I am sure thats unrelated to why gilneas is currently fighting werewolves) and kul tiras atm doesn't seem to have a leader)
Given how much Thrall seems to be on the outs and even not doing the actual, what would a Warchief Saurfang, or even Neeru look like in say the first six months, or so? How would ether work with the Tauran, Darkspears, and Forskane? Or even dealing with Theramore and the Kul Tiran colonies? Or the Alliance itself?
em a saurfang as warchief that would be interesting since unlike thrall saurfang knows what things were like on dreanor before the horde and unlike thrall witnessed and knows how horrible the things are (High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. High Overlord Saurfang says: His act could not erase the horrors we committed,. this implies to me saurfang doesn't stright blame warlocks and in bfa he says blackhands bloody legacy) but as we know saurfang can give up hope in the horde. but saurfang is mostly in thrall camp so apart from being a bit more aggressive cant imagine to much of a difference
He has his work cut out for him. Orgrimmar is still rebuilding, the Horde just been kicked out of Ashenvale outright, the Burning Blade is on the up along with the friendship of the Forsaken. All while the Alliance itself is at odds with itself and the Zandalari are making moves, and this Trade War and the Scourge is making moves on their own.
Thall thinks about who to choose as succsessor when he's thinking of stepping down during Cata. He's very much aware that his need to be a shaman is outweighing his need to be a Warchief.
I've written about Thrall's policies before, I think they're extremely flawed in many ways but I don't necessarily think that makes him a bad character, his lore is reasonably written as someone who is torn between different priorities, and finds it extremely difficult to resolve the contradictions of his beliefs, strategic situation, and other aspects.
The Warchief of the Horde sits in an unclear constitutional settlement. It began as a tool to help the Burning Legion unitfy the Orcs against their enemies, and people don't forget that. One of the problems with that of course though is that where the Warchief was once the military and political executive, but now functions as sort of that, but where's the war?
Thrall specifically attempts (and utterly fails lol) to transform the Horde from a genocidal military force into an imagined community based on the idea of collective security and familial bonds, this is the 'Horde as family' concept. This works really well between clan-based, shamanistic societies living in primitive communism, notably the orcs, tauren and the Darkspear. However, the problem becomes when Thrall tries to translate this political constitution onto the international stage, and where cracks start to emerge.
Some international theories would state that all states regardless of constitution act the same on the international stage, here that's partly true but wildly not in other ways. For example, Thrall's and the Horde's historical concerns do inform their deployments, but they also find it extremely difficult to form a proper international settlement with the Alliance on simple issues, probably because Thrall doesn't have the burecratic tools to actually make people listen to his plans.
The Warchief has a number of functions in the modern Horde:
Realistically, the Warchief is usually the Orcish racial leader, this is true in the Old, Dark, New and Iron Hordes, and the Orcs overwhelmingly dominate the other races until the Forsaken start to increase their power later in the timeline. The Darkspear for example, while prosperous, remain one tribe which split off from the wider Gurubashi some time ago. As such, the Warchief needs to either represent Orcish interests, or at least be well enough respected by the Orcs in general to rule them.
The Warchief is also the Horde's primary military leader. This was more the case with Blackhand and Doomhammer, but Thrall somewhat reinforced this, as did Garrosh. This doesn't mean the Warchief has to be the best fighter, but due to the nature of the Mak'gora, the Warchief must at least be sufficiently good a military and personal combatant to be credible to the martially inclined orcs.
The Warchief is also the leader of a tribal coalition of Orcs. This means they must maintain the confidence of the confederation and the differnet elemetns of the nation. That means that when Thrall's tribe tries to attack another clan, that causes his authority to massively weaken.
Lastly, the Warchief is, by virtue of being the executive, the main representative of the Horde diplomatically. Canonically Akinos for example did indeed go to Stormwind on diplomatic trips, but Thrall is the main representative, and in theory can speak for the whole Horde.
Thrall thinks about who to replace him, and considers both Saurfangs and Cairne. He rejects Cairne for not being an Orc, rejects Saurfang for being too old, and rejects the other Saurfang for being too dead. This I think tells us something about the constituional settlement of the Horde more broadly.
I've been through the different candidates below. I think there's a lot of general points that can be further discussed. To build on this, you could discuss what someone like Saurfang would do. For example, does he have a significantly different idea of the political settlement of the Orcish people than Thrall does? I don't really think he feel strongly about it. you might also question people in terms of 'what do you think about the Fel', Garrosh for example is willing to use molten giants, which are forbidden by the Earthen Ring. Comparably, the other main point would be foreign policy. Feldad for example would probably make a poor warchief because he doesn't have a number of aspects necessary, and is also heavily corrupted by the Fel. We might also understand that Feldad might prefer to operate as the chief magic dude, and might enjoy ruling through a proxy in some sort of shadowy councillor role. Some sort of Shadow Council perhaps. If only he had a willing pawn to use that he could trust to carry out his will, somoene young and vital, vigourous in battle and respectful of traditions......
Warchief
Power
Political settlement
Foreign policy
Internal affairs
Blackhand
Absolute, though dependant on Shadow Council
Horde as a genocidal army, secretly directed by demons
Expansionist, lebensraum
Military affairs prioritised, allies accepted
Doomhammer
Moderate, forced to compromise several times, subject to desertions
Horde still seeking their own land, no longer as aggressive regarding demons
Still expansionist
Forced to compromise with allies, clans etc
Thrall
Moderate, strategic situation forces compromise, personally charismatic and popular
Horde as family and collective security community
Non-interventionist, somewhat intentionally sabotaging the orcs due to guilt, but also desperate for allies
Cooperative, forced to take unsavoury allies like the Forsaken though
Garrosh
Strong, powerful legacy and vision of the Horde
Horde as imagined community, but under Garrosh's politics
Expansionist, but no longer genocidal, accepting of other races as long as they serve
Orcish supremacy, industrialisation, militarism
Vol'jin
Weak, compromise candidate, respected but with little power. Sits about for an expansion and then dies in the next one.
Recovery after various wars, especially civil war. Likely conciliation efforts
Like also conciliatory, attempting to preserve Horde settlements taken by Garrosh, but without angering the Alliance
Again, working on repairing Garrosh's damage, likely providing assurances, subsidies etc to the injured races, eg Belfs
Sylvannus
Moderate, open rebellion leading to the 4th War, but the ability to somehow still bind the Horde together. Also personally powerful and respected.
Horde as collective security, some rhetoric around avenging Vol'jin etc
Expansionst, but secretly working for the Jailer, so actions must be interpreted in that light
Attempting to prevent rebellion while also creating death to help the Jailer out.
Now I'm not saying that doesn't happen with the others but it just seems to happen far less. Honestly I can sort of see why civilisations just say fuck shamanism because as important as it is to the natural world it really isn't something that you can actually rely on.
Yes while sometimes unreliable, one of the massive benefits of the Elementals is that you can call on their power. The Orcs took down the Gorian Empire not through military might but by imploring the elements to do it for them. The Elemtnals destroyed Goria and broke the strongest empire in Draenor, one that had stood for thousands of years. In theory an individual shaman can do that. Comparably, the power of many mages might not be sufficinet for that, let alone the resources necessary to train them.
One thing I'd like to note is that the Orcs don't need that much territory. There isn't that many of them. Hell Alterac probably had a larger human population prior to the 2nd War than all living Orcs today combined, on Azeroth or Draenor.
This talk of needing more space seems ridiculous to me.
Setting aside that Orcs will need a higher number of calories etc because they're bigger, the Orcs presently either don't practice agriculture, or at least have only adopted it very recently. They're hunter-gatherers, or at best, pastoralists. The Thunderlords don't farm, they go about hunting. Agriculture massively increases the security of a population because you can rely on the production of grains etc which you can harvest at certain times. You can stay in the same place, you can tax them, which means a stratified society and so on. The Orcs have spent lots of time skulking in caves and fearing the big scary tings on Draenor, and it's only recently that they started going out, adopted certain technologies and so on. Part of what might make them significantly stronger would indeed be agriculture, simply because you could have much larger populations of orcs around.
If only he had a willing pawn to use that he could trust to carry out his will, somoene young and vital, vigourous in battle and respectful of traditions......
yeah but at the same time I am not sure anyone else could of done what he did during warcraft 3 (looking at you grom what part of cut down trees and build forward base made you think I need to drink more demons blood to kill demi-god now I know the night elves were attacking you but no need to become a slave to beat the demi-god) so what thrall really needs to do is find someone who stands for what he believes in (aka don't be warmongering genocidal monsters) while he heals up durator and add a bloody forrest (cause they add trees in dragonflight I am sure thrall as a powerful shamman could do something maybe) their so you can stop attacking the night elves for lumber
yeah but at the same time I am not sure anyone else could of done what he did during warcraft 3 (looking at you grom what part of cut down trees and build forward base made you think I need to drink more demons blood to kill demi-god now I know the night elves were attacking you but no need to become a slave to beat the demi-god) so what thrall really needs to do is find someone who stands for what he believes in (aka don't be warmongering genocidal monsters) while he heals up durator and add a bloody forrest (cause they add trees in dragonflight I am sure thrall as a powerful shamman could do something maybe) their so you can stop attacking the night elves for lumber
Yeah, I think that despite his numerous political faults Thrall was the orc that his people needed at the time. I don't think that any of them would have tried to reform the horde and limit warfare with the alliance as he did. We already saw that the current mindset of the orcs would leave them in a spiraling decline. At least he has shown that other ways are possible.
To be fair historically how much good associations and partnerships have been ruined or just not happened because of politic or bad communication ? It's sad but that's the kind of thing that arrives for men in our positions. I don't blame him for it, he is in a complicate position and I don't envy him to be in. But we can't allow to be pushed around either.
Ok well then hopefully the dwarves will have something but if not perhaps they have access to some goat or sheep we can buy. The humans of Alterac probably had some pastoralists amongst them so we'll just see whatever they already have going on.
To be fair historically how much good associations and partnerships have been ruined or just not happened because of politic or bad communication ? It's sad but that's the kind of thing that arrives for men in our positions. I don't blame him for it, he is in a complicate position and I don't envy him to be in. But we can't allow to be pushed around either.
opportunity.
Im not blaming him per say, and don't think Gork would necessarily blame him for it, but i think on the back of his mind he noted the huge missed opportunity.
The political manouvering kinda become an partial failure with feldad having a lot of popular support becoming an major opponent, he doesn't have an proper champion to become a direct treath but considering what Gork is becoming an figure of legend to orcish culture wich futher undermine his authority he will be forced to a compromise.
Possibly, but why? The longer Grok stays in exile the more beneficial really. Grok is currently a threat, one that Feldad can use, while still claiming that Grok is obeying the writ of exile. Why should Feldad expend that political capital, vs forcing Thrall to accept that the exile was an error and allowing Grok to return. Indeed in such a situation Grok may not want to, in which case Feldad could even get him to give more concessions in return for getting Grok to return. The longer Grok stays away the more Feldad can claim injury, the longer Thrall's position is weakened with the Frostwolves stomped as they were
Im not blaming him per say, and don't think Gork would necessarily blame him for it, but i think on the back of his mind he noted the huge missed opportunity.
Indeed. I also generally don't think Thrall really did anything wrong. Or rather, what he did wrong isn't necessarily his fault. He was, after all, quite young, so maybe we should blame his advisors instead. Ultimately though, he's in command. It's his responsibility, if he doesn't feel able to fulfil it and make the best situation for his people he should step aside.
In terms of doing things differently though, that would require significant radicalism. For example, if Durotar is a desert without resources, and you're unwilling to do war with teh Nelves to get the resources, then you could go hard into Dark Shamanism. Command the rain to fall, the wind to turn windmills, command the fire to rise and make steam for your engines. That's radical, and Thrall probably wouldn't even really think of it. But similarly, he's unwilling to actually clean house. Emulate Doomhammer, outlaw the Fel if necesasry, destroy the Twilight's Hammer. Do something about the Kul Tirans, either destroy them and send them to Theramore, or reach some accomodation with the Kul Tirans, otherwise they stay as a thorn in the Horde's side for decades.
You could equally make these criticisms of Doomhammer. Orgrim was forced by events to do the Second War, but was he actually? He owned half the continent after the First War, he could have just sit around there, maybe tried to explain that actually it was all Gul'dan's fault, but keep the land etc. He decided to continue the war, he decided to escalate with Dragons, with enslaving Alexstratza, with the Death Knights and so on. He defaulted to war because that's what he's used to. I don't think we can really blame him for continuing his current stance, but that doesn't mean we can't still critise it.
The Drakkari have their whole capital built in terraces fed by aqueducts notably, but Troll cities are generally built in terraces anyway, so that's fairly common. I'm not sure the Orcs would come up with it, but if someone said to Grok that terraces would be cool, he could indeed pursue such a thing. He does after all control a powerful earth elemental.
he did have the perfect fall guys blackhand and the shadow council he might of gotten away blaming it all on them but at the same time I am not sure most of the alliance would of accepted it (like the adrimal proudmoore or the people of stromgarde cause it does feel at times the hatred of trolls bleed over to orcs doubly so once the two allied) on the other hand at that time they only toke stormwind and human kingdoms at the time weren't really friends but thats the what ifs
Possibly, but why? The longer Grok stays in exile the more beneficial really. Grok is currently a threat, one that Feldad can use, while still claiming that Grok is obeying the writ of exile. Why should Feldad expend that political capital, vs forcing Thrall to accept that the exile was an error and allowing Grok to return. Indeed in such a situation Grok may not want to, in which case Feldad could even get him to give more concessions in return for getting Grok to return. The longer Grok stays away the more Feldad can claim injury, the longer Thrall's position is weakened with the Frostwolves stomped as they were
Only if he wants his son to come back but if this is the case of a father trusting his son to find his own path then he should be happy with what his son is doing. Kicking ass, making names, meeting influential people and having a place to himself in Alterac.
He gave him the ancestral sword after all when he took the blame to fall on his metaphorical sword so the clan doesn't get purged. He can then trust whatever his son is doing then it will be to his benefit intentionally or unintentionally.
Also he had no way to know that Gork would become, like sure the little guy seems honourable, brave and skilled enough despite his unfortunate hand in life but, really even Gork at the time would call bullshit if someone said he would eventually become what he is now.
I mean he literally charged forenius expecting to die for the sake of the horde.
Honestly is surprising that he does not gave a more negative view of shamanism. (Like not really because the whole point of the quest is to interpret things from Gorks perspective, but from an outsider looking in he really got dealt a bad hand)
