Kufufu
Adequate at best
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- What's it to ya?
Very literally: Experiments with the Energies of Twisting Nether by Gul'dan.
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Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
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Very literally: Experiments with the Energies of Twisting Nether by Gul'dan.
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gul'dan, cho'gall, the void, titans its always one of those 4
@FractiousDay, random question.
How Thrall sees Grok and his actions been talked about, but what about the other major Horde leaders Cairne and Vol'jin?
Sylvanas is a little more...complicated to say the least.
How Thrall sees Grok and his actions been talked about, but what about the other major Horde leaders Cairne and Vol'jin?
Sylvanas is a little more...complicated to say the least.
He let her do some vengeance for her. There's the working for the scarlet crusade thing but he also helped the rest of the Forsaken to find greener pastures.
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its kinda funny the tauren are the one horde faction we haven't really interacted with, we helped the darkspear early on (and why we have some with us) we just fought along with slavanas who is proably sticking around till arthas wakes up from his nap, but the taruen we meet 1 who was an outcast
That is very true. And I have no idea how we would interacted with them unless we go back to Kalimdor, and even then we're still ban/exile from Horde territory proper.
But orcs/humans are at least partially canonical.
Half-orc
Half-orc is a term used to describe the offspring of an orc or half-orc parent and a parent of any other species. Since the beginning of the First War, orcs have interbred with a number of species: mostly humans, but half-ogres and half-draenei are not unheard of.[1][citation needed] It most...
wowpedia.fandom.com
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and then theirs sylvanus and her bloody annoying sidekick who I can hope never ever returns (I can hope nathonos never returns just give me this)
He sorta did through their representative Thurloga at the Frostwolves camp. It wasn't a good first impression when they were led by Drek'Thar to ambush Grok during a meeting of neutrality.
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meeting one tauren even a reprenestive isn't really interacting like we have done with the rest since we didn't even talk to them not like we have with the forsken with slavanus and varimthus, trolls with their village and orcs like we have with thrall and feldad
That tauren is more representative than the fel corrupt one who died in the Naxrramas raid when she was sent by Cairne Bloodhoof himself no doubt as part of their past friendship and shaman links. She definitely wasn't happy about the aftermath. One giant FUBAR at the last resort.
It definitely was a worst case outcome not help by Drek'thar actions or his unprovoked attacked on us.
Thurloga is going to tell Drek'thar went off the deep end and got both the Village destroyed and the surviving Frostwolves exile.
I think if the Alterac idea does reach an actual possibility, Grok should keep Gol'dir around as he belongs to Thrall and can represent his interests whenever Grok does something to at least keep a watch on the rising exiled orc who's accumulating titles, warriors and even land to his warband despite the rather unprovoked encounter.
Then should his position be more secure he can send aid back to Orgrimmar to deal with the rebuilding or open new lanes of trade through Alterac.
Then should his position be more secure he can send aid back to Orgrimmar to deal with the rebuilding or open new lanes of trade through Alterac.
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- United Kingdom
It's possible I suppose, and sure Garona might have been a slave of Gul'dan because he thought it amusing to have an orc follower rape a draenei or something to see what happened, he has the right mix of cruelty and curiosity to do that, however the other hybrid, Lantressor, is too old for it, and seems to indicate that there were more of that and that it was at least not uncommon, just like the Mok'Nathal.
I don't necessarily deny the possibility of 'some weird magic thing' causing it, I just prefer there to be a logic to it.
It'd also remark that the problem in blaming Gul'dan for everything (from the Orc perspective) avoids ever having to tackle their cultural issues.
Oh and looking it up, Garona specifically is either an experiement or a product of war rape, so depends on your lore interpretation I suppose.
Vol'jin would probably have a fairly good opinion of you. You did willingly go help out the Trolls, and despite the problems with Thrall and his policies, to the Trolls you've been pretty decent, and you aren't an Orcish supremacist, or aggressive like Garrosh was. Vol'jin also probably has exit strategies in mind for if he ever needs to run away, like just evacuating back to Stanglethorn.
Cairne might be a little differnet, I think he'd be genuinely concerned regarding your Dark Shamanism, and closeness to the Fel, as well as the perception that the warlike neighbours next to his people might be in for some political schism. However, his perception of you would also be tempered by a lot of this stuff probably going over his head. I imagine he might send Thrall a letter or something wishing him well, but not really understanding the nuances of the issues at hand.
They're really not though. You clearly have canon and then you have canon. In the RPGs, from where we get a lot of DnD type stuff, you find things like Thrall's shamanism being called 'Divine' magic, or mages and warlocks being lumped together as 'arcane' users. WoW has been the main source for decades, recently we've had things like Chronicle. If they wanted it to be canon they're write it in. Warcraft, for whatever reason, and Blizzard more broadly, don't really want to deal with sex stuff, and very rarely deal with lore that might make someone uncomfortable. Same as how Warhammer removed the fimir because their lore was 'bog rape monsters'.
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so voljin is mostly okay as long as we don't go all they have no place in my horde (garrosh your an idiot) and carine while not liking our darker parts was the one who conivinced thrall to accept the forsken if I recall so he might think well I don't like it but maybe it be helped
Orcish opinions on the Fel
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- United Kingdom
Right so you've just got a tribe of fel orcs, and at some point sooner rather than later you're going to have to deal with it in a leadership position.
The Orcs first encountered the Fel when Gul'dan/Ner'zhul fooled the Orcs into thinking Kil'jaeden was a powerful ancestral spirit who had a new type of magic for everyone.
There are a variety of ways the Fel can be administered, but essentially it makes the user physically more powerful at the expense of mental instability. To some, this isn't a big deal, but the Orcs over time clearly understand that the Fel has negative effects to the wider environment, as well to what we might describe as 'public health'.
Like any social issue, there seem to be a number of ways to describe people's opinions on the Fel. These stem from the spiritual or cultural views of the individuals. For example, lots of the southern tribes, notably the Bleeding Hollow, Bonechewer and Laughing Skull, have a hostile relationship with their natural environment anyway, so I don't think they'd see a difference between the Evergrowth killing their guys vs the Fel poisoning things.
Comparably, with the exception of the Frostwolves, all the other clans are also fine with dominating their environment to a greater or lesser extent, for example the Blackrock are frequent users of Dark Shamanism and the Dragonmaw and known for taming creatures.
I think that most Orcs would be familiar with Gul'dan's trickery, and the idea that the Fel isn't actually that great. The issue though is that the Fel is undeniably powerful, and you might just forget at some point that they were doing something bad because it's just that useful. Even orcs like Blackhand when they felt the Fel had failed them in military affairs, didn't seem to have an inherent stance against it, it was merely a tactic or group of people who'd failed.
Doomhammer comes in, but there then emerges a question over the next few decades about whether the Fel is inherently bad, or whether it's something that stems from something bad, and is actually ok. It massively depends on the person's position in society, what they might think about Gul'dan for example. If you're one of the younger generation who don't remember Draenor, and didn't see the worst of the Fel-orcs under Grom for example, you might feel that the Fel is just an especially destructive magic. What fundamentally is the difference between a troll witch-doctor who sacrifices a prisoner and uses magic against an enemy, when compared with a warlock who also uses sacrificial magics to fight?
I think essentially the Fel and people's perception of it would be a matter of considering your individual position. Even Thrall, who had a pretty good reason to distrust the Fel, is ok with warlocks existing. If you do take a position that some amount of Fel is acceptable, you've already gone far enough that you're then just negotiating about how much. Unless you take an absolute position like the Kaldorei did, you have to accept a certain amount of corruption.
Now as to things like Fel-Orcs, can we assume that all the Warsong ones were killed and only Grom was cured? Or was there some sort of purification ritual for them too? Perhaps, but the Fel would have probably been fairly difficult to cure if it took loads of work, so maybe the Fel-orcs just all got killed.
In any case, there will be some Fel-orcs in the Horde, even in Thrall's Horde. They may be disliked, even disenfranchised, but they remain some of the most physically powerful warriors in the Horde, and the Horde still needs them as shock troopers. If you can throw some Fel-orcs at the problem instead of sending your own warriors, that's advantageous. In some clans, perhaps Blackrock, certainly Burning Blade, Fel-orcs are more accepted, but they're still not at the forefront, which is partly why it's so unusual that Grok walks about with a Fel-orc in such a prominent position as his trainer/adviser/guard.
I think that in many cases, this is another example of Thrall's inability to make a firm decision. He's caught in between wanting to control warlocks and use their formidable abilities, with the great utility Feldad brings for example, and his hatred of them due to their representation of the betrayal of his people. Someone like Feldad, who goes about pretty openly talking about the Fel, and who so famously won against Forneus while Thrall was unable to do anything, is an embarrassment for him.
On Grok taking on the Demonsword Clan, this is partly tied up with the military implications. Grok is already dangerous to Thrall, having thousands more warlike orcs is even more dangerous. The Fel-orcs themselves, or the Demonsword's reliance on Fel generally, is indeed gravely concerning though, and will continue to be so over time. Firstly, because if they can be controlled it demonstrates that they're pretty cool actually which really impact's Thrall's policies saying the Fel is bad. If they can't be controlled the implication is that Grok might be just as bad as the worst of his clan. There are other implciations, but those are perhaps the main ones.
On Grok's personal stance, this is an extremely complicated matter. Grok personally doesn't have anything against the Fel. Feldad has been very careful to not expose him to the bad sides of the Fel, and has carefully controlled who meets him, eg he sent Sesk and Ishi to demonstrate that Sesk is actually a controlled guy even when he has Fel stuff. Similarly, though Feldad demonstrates signs of physical corruption which might be unsightly, that's not really a big deal. In terms of Grok's personal stance, he's refused the Fel before, but he personally isn't necessarily opposed to it, he just personally hasn't had it. Grok has a general dissaproval of the Fel because of his personal beliefs, but that doesn't necessarily extend into a political stance. In terms of his official stance, Grok would be presently unable to denounce his father, due to the extreme responsibilities of leadership and personal attitudes Grok has toward Feldad, and he can't therefore lose 'face' by criticing the Fel. He takes a stance like with teh warlocks, by saying that he personally doesn't subscribe to his father's ideals, but still respects his father as clan chief, and obviously a parent.
I don't actually recall what prompted this post so have probably forgotten why I was writing it, just remembered that I was indeed going to remark upon it. If anyone has questions add them and I'll edit the post.
The Orcs first encountered the Fel when Gul'dan/Ner'zhul fooled the Orcs into thinking Kil'jaeden was a powerful ancestral spirit who had a new type of magic for everyone.
There are a variety of ways the Fel can be administered, but essentially it makes the user physically more powerful at the expense of mental instability. To some, this isn't a big deal, but the Orcs over time clearly understand that the Fel has negative effects to the wider environment, as well to what we might describe as 'public health'.
Like any social issue, there seem to be a number of ways to describe people's opinions on the Fel. These stem from the spiritual or cultural views of the individuals. For example, lots of the southern tribes, notably the Bleeding Hollow, Bonechewer and Laughing Skull, have a hostile relationship with their natural environment anyway, so I don't think they'd see a difference between the Evergrowth killing their guys vs the Fel poisoning things.
Comparably, with the exception of the Frostwolves, all the other clans are also fine with dominating their environment to a greater or lesser extent, for example the Blackrock are frequent users of Dark Shamanism and the Dragonmaw and known for taming creatures.
I think that most Orcs would be familiar with Gul'dan's trickery, and the idea that the Fel isn't actually that great. The issue though is that the Fel is undeniably powerful, and you might just forget at some point that they were doing something bad because it's just that useful. Even orcs like Blackhand when they felt the Fel had failed them in military affairs, didn't seem to have an inherent stance against it, it was merely a tactic or group of people who'd failed.
Doomhammer comes in, but there then emerges a question over the next few decades about whether the Fel is inherently bad, or whether it's something that stems from something bad, and is actually ok. It massively depends on the person's position in society, what they might think about Gul'dan for example. If you're one of the younger generation who don't remember Draenor, and didn't see the worst of the Fel-orcs under Grom for example, you might feel that the Fel is just an especially destructive magic. What fundamentally is the difference between a troll witch-doctor who sacrifices a prisoner and uses magic against an enemy, when compared with a warlock who also uses sacrificial magics to fight?
I think essentially the Fel and people's perception of it would be a matter of considering your individual position. Even Thrall, who had a pretty good reason to distrust the Fel, is ok with warlocks existing. If you do take a position that some amount of Fel is acceptable, you've already gone far enough that you're then just negotiating about how much. Unless you take an absolute position like the Kaldorei did, you have to accept a certain amount of corruption.
Now as to things like Fel-Orcs, can we assume that all the Warsong ones were killed and only Grom was cured? Or was there some sort of purification ritual for them too? Perhaps, but the Fel would have probably been fairly difficult to cure if it took loads of work, so maybe the Fel-orcs just all got killed.
In any case, there will be some Fel-orcs in the Horde, even in Thrall's Horde. They may be disliked, even disenfranchised, but they remain some of the most physically powerful warriors in the Horde, and the Horde still needs them as shock troopers. If you can throw some Fel-orcs at the problem instead of sending your own warriors, that's advantageous. In some clans, perhaps Blackrock, certainly Burning Blade, Fel-orcs are more accepted, but they're still not at the forefront, which is partly why it's so unusual that Grok walks about with a Fel-orc in such a prominent position as his trainer/adviser/guard.
I think that in many cases, this is another example of Thrall's inability to make a firm decision. He's caught in between wanting to control warlocks and use their formidable abilities, with the great utility Feldad brings for example, and his hatred of them due to their representation of the betrayal of his people. Someone like Feldad, who goes about pretty openly talking about the Fel, and who so famously won against Forneus while Thrall was unable to do anything, is an embarrassment for him.
On Grok taking on the Demonsword Clan, this is partly tied up with the military implications. Grok is already dangerous to Thrall, having thousands more warlike orcs is even more dangerous. The Fel-orcs themselves, or the Demonsword's reliance on Fel generally, is indeed gravely concerning though, and will continue to be so over time. Firstly, because if they can be controlled it demonstrates that they're pretty cool actually which really impact's Thrall's policies saying the Fel is bad. If they can't be controlled the implication is that Grok might be just as bad as the worst of his clan. There are other implciations, but those are perhaps the main ones.
On Grok's personal stance, this is an extremely complicated matter. Grok personally doesn't have anything against the Fel. Feldad has been very careful to not expose him to the bad sides of the Fel, and has carefully controlled who meets him, eg he sent Sesk and Ishi to demonstrate that Sesk is actually a controlled guy even when he has Fel stuff. Similarly, though Feldad demonstrates signs of physical corruption which might be unsightly, that's not really a big deal. In terms of Grok's personal stance, he's refused the Fel before, but he personally isn't necessarily opposed to it, he just personally hasn't had it. Grok has a general dissaproval of the Fel because of his personal beliefs, but that doesn't necessarily extend into a political stance. In terms of his official stance, Grok would be presently unable to denounce his father, due to the extreme responsibilities of leadership and personal attitudes Grok has toward Feldad, and he can't therefore lose 'face' by criticing the Fel. He takes a stance like with teh warlocks, by saying that he personally doesn't subscribe to his father's ideals, but still respects his father as clan chief, and obviously a parent.
I don't actually recall what prompted this post so have probably forgotten why I was writing it, just remembered that I was indeed going to remark upon it. If anyone has questions add them and I'll edit the post.
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MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
I think it was people discussing the implications on taking those fell orcs.
In the spirit of the quest, it's probably valid discuss what would be Gork's oficial stance on it.
We know Gork particularly dislike the Fel, in many ways it's due cultural things but is because it will rob the user, they may not think it's a big deal but in the long run it is.
It's robs your emotions, your thoughts, your skill and finally your will. If spirits is something to be weary of due their capricious nature and eventually broken over for the good of the horde, the Fell is something that must be dominated, take its strenghts and purge the impurities poison your mind it, wich is an extremely dificult task that the power you get from it is very much not worth the bargain. So it boils down to, unless you have an extremely pressing reason to need that strength, do not.
In the spirit of the quest, it's probably valid discuss what would be Gork's oficial stance on it.
We know Gork particularly dislike the Fel, in many ways it's due cultural things but is because it will rob the user, they may not think it's a big deal but in the long run it is.
It's robs your emotions, your thoughts, your skill and finally your will. If spirits is something to be weary of due their capricious nature and eventually broken over for the good of the horde, the Fell is something that must be dominated, take its strenghts and purge the impurities poison your mind it, wich is an extremely dificult task that the power you get from it is very much not worth the bargain. So it boils down to, unless you have an extremely pressing reason to need that strength, do not.
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and on the other hand garrosh just hanged all the warlocks (does that mean he also killed all fel orcs I know he pardoned the dark horde and I have to assume they had fel orcs so he garrosh allow them to live or did he kill them to)
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Hrrrm.
I always thought after Manneroth died Grommash was freed but so were all the Fel-Orcs. Created by drinking his blood, because that Specific link was what the Fel-power-up was based and built from, so no Manneroth=no source of power for Fel connection.
So I figured Fel Orcs reverted to normal, which seems like an arguement Feldad might begrudgingly make;
'No Grok, if push comes to push and it truly isn't worth it I CAN extract it. I just think it would be a bad idea since you're getting much more out of it then you lose. That's the whole point!'
As for Grok's stance…It's kind of a strong one. Oddly enough almost stronger then Thrall's position, given the active sending away of those Warlocks…
But then again, he just fought a Mak'Gora and got a bunch of Fel Orcs in the bargain. So that's going to be a genuinely interesting question to engage with…
I always thought after Manneroth died Grommash was freed but so were all the Fel-Orcs. Created by drinking his blood, because that Specific link was what the Fel-power-up was based and built from, so no Manneroth=no source of power for Fel connection.
So I figured Fel Orcs reverted to normal, which seems like an arguement Feldad might begrudgingly make;
'No Grok, if push comes to push and it truly isn't worth it I CAN extract it. I just think it would be a bad idea since you're getting much more out of it then you lose. That's the whole point!'
As for Grok's stance…It's kind of a strong one. Oddly enough almost stronger then Thrall's position, given the active sending away of those Warlocks…
But then again, he just fought a Mak'Gora and got a bunch of Fel Orcs in the bargain. So that's going to be a genuinely interesting question to engage with…
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All types of magic have their mor- I mean extremists look at shamans with the primalists, warlocks have demon worshpers, their are light extremists, for the void all you need to do is look at cho'gall and arcane well theirs malagos and undeath you have kel'thuzard
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
The problem is that Fell don't corrupt like all magic does, it by deafault take from you it rob you, and while culturally an ork would think it does not rob you much, it does. I don't think he would shun fel orcs but he would make a very big deal of having them tame and break their dark impulses like you do with an malevolent elemental. It's ultimely an poisoned chalice but the power you gain from it may be diference from live to realize your full potential later and die. And at this point it's truly an personal decision from the orcs parts, what it would mean to their honour and their family, there's no absolute answer.
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Added on both, though the later will have t obe discussed in thread as well obviously, and developed through the future actions.
Garrosh is extremely distrustful of warlocks, and tbh with good reason. He does indeed kill them, but that's during the Seige of Ogrimmar, where he's presumably doing some housekeeping given the present situation. I assume he wouldn't have specifically wanted to kill any Fel orcs beacuse they've not necessariyl done anything wrong (or at least, nothing his own father didn't lead them to anyway lol).
Hmmm. 'I have freed myself/no you have freed us all'. I suppose the Fel empowerment did indeed fade from Grom's warriors, but did the horns they grew also fade away? Presumably more of them drank from the corrupted pool, not just Grom. All the other orcs drank from Mannoroth's blood the first time (or presumably a water source infected iwth it) and they're still green they didn't go back to being brown.
We also know that some orcs still feel bloodlust, there's a guy in Arathi wh ohas a quest about it for example
Which, though he was being sneaky, was still true lol.
Especially with people like Garrosh, given that he refused one type of corruption but was fine with others.
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garrosh -what do you mean fusing the heart of an old god is corruption I mean cho'gall was just fine