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well their ship should be crashing soon but I don't think they will be to happy to see us
Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)
- Thread starter FractiousDay
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- Fantasy
Understatement of the century right there friend.
Would he be happy being in a high position in Alterac instead of in Orgrimmar?
Goldir can clarify that if he speaks truthfully should he ever make it back.
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or the august celestial I suppose sure
sure I'd imagine so, he wants advancement and position, and like some others he doesn't really mind where he gets it, you have to be fairly desperate to throw in with demon worshipers after all
Those gods in Pandaria? Very far away.
For him or Grok? Though the circumstances of his recruitment means he definitely wants to climb high maybe something REMFy so long as it puts him in a position of power and there's plenty in Alterac to set up his new home in.
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neeru: right last I checked my son who everyone called a weakling he conquered andorhol lets see whats his done since then... what do you mean he fought alexandros morgrine in 1v1 combat then beat Haomarush gaining 3,000 members for his warband
Okay so Grok grew a lot from this fight. He's recruited the Demonsword Clan which will definitely have complications, but it's more people Grok has command over. He's grow in skill for Weapons and Shamanism. The Soulfire spell is a really strong spell and for a Blademaster super powerful. There's also the reputation gain for Grok's skills as a warrior.
It the Warcraft/Orcish version of the Ugly Ducking fairy tale.
Man Thrall must be pulling out his hair at this point.
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There's also the fact that there's not necessarily an 'answer' to the question. The specific mechanism by which Grok is doing it might not be discernable, or categorisable by the people working near him.
Grok hasn't asked Scorn because it's an awkward issue to ask about, but the history so far is that Scorn was exiled for some reason, possibly for some crime, and was therefore hanging out with the warlocks. He's subsequently anglign to advance Grok and rise at the same time.
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okay so if we stay here we have the demonsword clan (which most likely has women and has been doing blackhands age up children to adult hood) the humans who have been lead by bandits and are not in the best position, the dwarves, the orcs at hammerfell cause as the local orc saidan would most likely want to use us, whatever ogres are in the area ( like wasn't their an ogre clan here so does that mean women and children or is it just the warriors) and the winteraxe frost trolls to mange
Clan numbers and demography continued
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Right, I need to do a post on orc population numbers in order to estimate how many of them there were in particular clans now.
Firstly, we know that the Orcs are a violent and technologically primitive race, who were also oppressed in a hostile enviroment by various factors. Apparently there's already some sort of corruption or decline even before the Dark Portal, but there's also the Primals and Evergrowth, as well as the more powerful Ogres. Those are all external factors, but internally I might also remark that there's going to be some selective infanticide, as well as a generally bellicose culture. Tribal warfare is one of the most brutal types, so we're going to see a large amount of deaths from that too.
As such, I'm going to say that there was at most 1m Orcs on Draenor in recent years, based on population estimates for hunter-gatherers. This will increase and decrease at various points, and the Horde's formation is certainly a low point. Things evidently aren't going great, but Gul'dan poisons everyone with the Red Pox and accelerates the enviromental degredation by annoying the Elements. The Orcs hunt the Gronn to near extinction which presumably has some sort of metaphysical effect, then strip the land bare, even having to eat their warbeasts before coming to Azeroth. In addition of course the Orcs defeat the three other powers of Draenor, the Arakkoa, Ogres and the Draenei, which presumably further deflates their numbers. Let us imagine therefore that the Orcs have at least halved in population, down to 500,000, if not further.
During this period, Blackhand ordered various reforms, including accelerating the Horde's technological development, as well as ordering the clans to specialise. Strangely, the Frostwolves go from being one of the smallest tribes of around 50 individuals, to being a respected part of the triumvirate of Blackhand's generals. I shall assume therefore that part of that specialisation was for Blackhand to order that smaller tribes be absorbed into the larger ones. Blackhand deployed one part of the Horde first, the most disciplined clans and presumably a large part of the warriors, leaving the less disciplined clans (and presumably the non-combatants) behind.
Notable for being left behind were the Warsong, Shattered Hand, Thunderlord, Laughing Skull and Bonechewer. Comparably, those going through included the Blackrock, Blacktooth Grin, Bleeding Hollow, Burning Blade, Dragonmaw, Frostwolf and Twilight's Hammer. Absent from that list are the Shadowmoon and Stormreavers. It may be that these clans were small enough to either not be mentioned or simply be less relevant at that point. The Stormreavers are a clan almost solely composed of Gul'dan and his warlocks for example. There are also a large number of minor clans, either smaller or less prestigious, or extremely specialist like the Mok'Nathal.
I shall briefly note here that in older lore the Burning Blade are the most chaotic and bloodthirsty of all the orcs, and were left behind. Not according to newer lore which builds up them as samurai.
Again, to give us some numbers to work with, let's imagine that 200,000 Orcs follow Blackhand, and engage in his campaign, while the rest remain in Draenor, apparently degrading pretty quickly to Fel corruption and hunger. In the first phase of the First War, Blackhand moves steadily forward, taking high losses against the humans, and significant setbacks in the Siege of Stormwind itself. After the first siege fails, Orgrim assumes the mantle of Warchief, attacking Stormwind again, which no doubt is just as bloody as the first attack. At this point, let's assume 50,000 losses, leaving Doomhammer with 150,000, still a respectable force.
Doomhammer is at least moderately concerend though, and calls on the other clans in Draenor. They're busy fighting each other though, and only a small number come along, which explicitly doesn't include Grommash which is rather embarassing.
The Second War begins 4 years after the Opening of the Dark Portal. Doomhammer leads the Horde on a largely futile series of campaigns, including such brilliant tactics as smashing his face into Ironforge, and then smashing it into Silvermoon, and finally after he's walked off his headache, smashing it into Lordaeron. Unfortuantely this doesn't work. Doomhammer leads the Horde to traverse the entire continent, presumably proceeding at a fast pace and not spending much time tending to the wounded. Meanwhile at this point the Horde has no shaman, they're all either depowered or have turned to the Fel. Several clans basically wander off to do their own thing during this time, including the Dragonmaw, Bleeding Hollow, and Frostwolves. He ends up losing the war and taking significant casualties, losing half his force, which was already depleted in the First War when Blackhand had command. Doomhammer is defeated at Blackrock Spire, the rest of the Horde being imprisoned, approximately 6 years after the opening of the Dark Portal. In this time, I think we can conservatively imagine that Doomhammer has at most around 80,000 Orcs in his entire force.
Gorefiend and a few others, perhaps hundreds at most, presumably the Horde's remaining cavalry, manage to escape back through the Portal. Meanwhile, significant elements of other clans are able to escape captivity, notably some Blackrock and Blacktooth Grin in the Spire, the Warsong, Frostwolves, Bleeding Hollow and Dragonmaw. For the sake of argument, lets say we've got the best part of the 80,000 interred by the Alliance, and with tens of thousands escaped, either into the wild places of Azeroth, or in more collected forces like the Dragonmaw.
In what's quite an admirable move, the Alliance don't decide to just kill all the orcs. They intern them, where they sit around being sad for 20 years. Presumably mayn waste away, and there's very few children being born because everyone is very sad.
Meanwhile, the Orcs on Draenor aren't doing very well. They're weak enough that they don't have the strength to try again even if they wanted to. Instead, Grommash leads the remaining clans through the restarted Portal to go on an artefact hunt. Grommash sits around making a nusiance of himself while Gorefiend and Wolfbrother go after the loot.
Grom apparently just sits around until Ner'zuhl blows up Draenor, and then the Warsong and several other clans disperse.
I've remarked in previous infoposts about the Horde's modern clan structure, the experience of internment, and the broader implications of this series of demographic catastrophies. In general terms the Horde's population has suffered massive shocks, and events have prevented them from rebuilding till the present, with Grok being one of the first generation of Orcs born in the Horde. The point I want to make is that if they had high numbers, these have been devastated by warfare.
I'm not going to count the Clanless, as no sort of census will have been done on them, but of the larger clans and their consistient or cadet branches you'll have:
Consider these as informative, rather than fixed. Putting numbers to things is never a good idea in this sort of worldbuilding, but it does at least give me a starting point to specifically note down particular points.
Also, in reading about some of this stuff, apparently in current WoW orcs can now be priests and now actually have a lore reason to use the Light, also there's a really interesting and competently written quest series which goes into internal orc politics which is frankly just enraging. We had expansion after expansion of nonsense. Where was this writing during that? Extremely vexing.
Firstly, we know that the Orcs are a violent and technologically primitive race, who were also oppressed in a hostile enviroment by various factors. Apparently there's already some sort of corruption or decline even before the Dark Portal, but there's also the Primals and Evergrowth, as well as the more powerful Ogres. Those are all external factors, but internally I might also remark that there's going to be some selective infanticide, as well as a generally bellicose culture. Tribal warfare is one of the most brutal types, so we're going to see a large amount of deaths from that too.
As such, I'm going to say that there was at most 1m Orcs on Draenor in recent years, based on population estimates for hunter-gatherers. This will increase and decrease at various points, and the Horde's formation is certainly a low point. Things evidently aren't going great, but Gul'dan poisons everyone with the Red Pox and accelerates the enviromental degredation by annoying the Elements. The Orcs hunt the Gronn to near extinction which presumably has some sort of metaphysical effect, then strip the land bare, even having to eat their warbeasts before coming to Azeroth. In addition of course the Orcs defeat the three other powers of Draenor, the Arakkoa, Ogres and the Draenei, which presumably further deflates their numbers. Let us imagine therefore that the Orcs have at least halved in population, down to 500,000, if not further.
During this period, Blackhand ordered various reforms, including accelerating the Horde's technological development, as well as ordering the clans to specialise. Strangely, the Frostwolves go from being one of the smallest tribes of around 50 individuals, to being a respected part of the triumvirate of Blackhand's generals. I shall assume therefore that part of that specialisation was for Blackhand to order that smaller tribes be absorbed into the larger ones. Blackhand deployed one part of the Horde first, the most disciplined clans and presumably a large part of the warriors, leaving the less disciplined clans (and presumably the non-combatants) behind.
Notable for being left behind were the Warsong, Shattered Hand, Thunderlord, Laughing Skull and Bonechewer. Comparably, those going through included the Blackrock, Blacktooth Grin, Bleeding Hollow, Burning Blade, Dragonmaw, Frostwolf and Twilight's Hammer. Absent from that list are the Shadowmoon and Stormreavers. It may be that these clans were small enough to either not be mentioned or simply be less relevant at that point. The Stormreavers are a clan almost solely composed of Gul'dan and his warlocks for example. There are also a large number of minor clans, either smaller or less prestigious, or extremely specialist like the Mok'Nathal.
I shall briefly note here that in older lore the Burning Blade are the most chaotic and bloodthirsty of all the orcs, and were left behind. Not according to newer lore which builds up them as samurai.
Again, to give us some numbers to work with, let's imagine that 200,000 Orcs follow Blackhand, and engage in his campaign, while the rest remain in Draenor, apparently degrading pretty quickly to Fel corruption and hunger. In the first phase of the First War, Blackhand moves steadily forward, taking high losses against the humans, and significant setbacks in the Siege of Stormwind itself. After the first siege fails, Orgrim assumes the mantle of Warchief, attacking Stormwind again, which no doubt is just as bloody as the first attack. At this point, let's assume 50,000 losses, leaving Doomhammer with 150,000, still a respectable force.
Doomhammer is at least moderately concerend though, and calls on the other clans in Draenor. They're busy fighting each other though, and only a small number come along, which explicitly doesn't include Grommash which is rather embarassing.
The Second War begins 4 years after the Opening of the Dark Portal. Doomhammer leads the Horde on a largely futile series of campaigns, including such brilliant tactics as smashing his face into Ironforge, and then smashing it into Silvermoon, and finally after he's walked off his headache, smashing it into Lordaeron. Unfortuantely this doesn't work. Doomhammer leads the Horde to traverse the entire continent, presumably proceeding at a fast pace and not spending much time tending to the wounded. Meanwhile at this point the Horde has no shaman, they're all either depowered or have turned to the Fel. Several clans basically wander off to do their own thing during this time, including the Dragonmaw, Bleeding Hollow, and Frostwolves. He ends up losing the war and taking significant casualties, losing half his force, which was already depleted in the First War when Blackhand had command. Doomhammer is defeated at Blackrock Spire, the rest of the Horde being imprisoned, approximately 6 years after the opening of the Dark Portal. In this time, I think we can conservatively imagine that Doomhammer has at most around 80,000 Orcs in his entire force.
Gorefiend and a few others, perhaps hundreds at most, presumably the Horde's remaining cavalry, manage to escape back through the Portal. Meanwhile, significant elements of other clans are able to escape captivity, notably some Blackrock and Blacktooth Grin in the Spire, the Warsong, Frostwolves, Bleeding Hollow and Dragonmaw. For the sake of argument, lets say we've got the best part of the 80,000 interred by the Alliance, and with tens of thousands escaped, either into the wild places of Azeroth, or in more collected forces like the Dragonmaw.
In what's quite an admirable move, the Alliance don't decide to just kill all the orcs. They intern them, where they sit around being sad for 20 years. Presumably mayn waste away, and there's very few children being born because everyone is very sad.
Meanwhile, the Orcs on Draenor aren't doing very well. They're weak enough that they don't have the strength to try again even if they wanted to. Instead, Grommash leads the remaining clans through the restarted Portal to go on an artefact hunt. Grommash sits around making a nusiance of himself while Gorefiend and Wolfbrother go after the loot.
Grom apparently just sits around until Ner'zuhl blows up Draenor, and then the Warsong and several other clans disperse.
I've remarked in previous infoposts about the Horde's modern clan structure, the experience of internment, and the broader implications of this series of demographic catastrophies. In general terms the Horde's population has suffered massive shocks, and events have prevented them from rebuilding till the present, with Grok being one of the first generation of Orcs born in the Horde. The point I want to make is that if they had high numbers, these have been devastated by warfare.
I'm not going to count the Clanless, as no sort of census will have been done on them, but of the larger clans and their consistient or cadet branches you'll have:
- Blackrock - Have always been the largest and most powerful clan, and retained enough numbers to split the clan under Rend and to start to specialise their forces again. Additionally, have enough forces to support cadet branches like the Demonsword Clan. Also allied with the Black Dragonflight, which provide them some techs which help. Relatively strong, and continuing to use the artificial aging techniques to get stronger, 80,000 individuals split between the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor following Thrall and Rend respectively, and also including the random groups of people wandering about and hill clans.
- Frostwolf - 'True' Frostwolves relatively few, perhaps 2,000 at most, but having absorbed a large number of Clanless orcs under Thrall's leadership, one of the stronger political factions in the Horde, 30,000 individuals.
- Bleeding Hollow - Fought the trolls, but then stayed relatively safe and retreated to Draenor. Perhaps 10,000 individuals in total, split between a larger part on Draenor, and a smaller number of Azeroth.
- Dragonmaw - Stayed fairly independant, and somehow managed to keep a lot of their dragons. Active trade and alliance with the Blackrock, so population exchange and aging tech likely in return for air support. 20,000 individuals, all in the Dark Horde.
- Burning Blade - Mixed fortunes generally, with Neeru choosing to excise elements of the clan deliberately and specialise voluntarily. Likely small numbers, split between Orgrimmar, smaller settlements like Dreadmist, and then a secret sect in Desolace. Likely 8,000 individuals, with most of them in hiding.
- Warsong - Militaristic clan, stayed out of the First War, and free from captivity after the Second, likely causing them to absorb other clans more. Suffered setbacks like a significant number becoming Fel Orcs and dying on the Legion's side at Hyjal, but then were still trusted to be relatively independant by Thrall. Around 18,000 individuals, many in Ashenvale.
- Shattered Hand - Former slaves, likely absorbing some smaller clans by force of will, but also significantly degenerated in the modern day. Specialising as spies and assassins, likely <1000 individuals.
- Thunderlord - Vigorous, but decreased, no evidence of large numbers, specialised into beast tamers. <1000 individuals.
- Laughing Skull - Regarded as insane and treacherous even before drinking demon blood. Very few individuals in Azeroth, though some in Draenor. Likely fewer than 2000 individuals.
- Bonechewer - Another clan with a poor reputation, similar situation to Laughing Skull.
- Twilight's Hammer - Not a clan anymore, but a widespread cult. Not even specialisation in the Horde, almost entirely gone from open Orc society.
- Shadowmoon - Almost nonexistant, no independant settlements, will be gone in a generation. <100 individuals.
- Stormreavers - Destroyed, <100 individuals, with it being unlikely that anyone of them would declare themselves openly.
- Mok'Nathal - Nonexistant as a clan on Azeroth, <1000 individuals in Outland.
Consider these as informative, rather than fixed. Putting numbers to things is never a good idea in this sort of worldbuilding, but it does at least give me a starting point to specifically note down particular points.
Also, in reading about some of this stuff, apparently in current WoW orcs can now be priests and now actually have a lore reason to use the Light, also there's a really interesting and competently written quest series which goes into internal orc politics which is frankly just enraging. We had expansion after expansion of nonsense. Where was this writing during that? Extremely vexing.
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maybe finding their feet
(is this about the orc heritage armour quest in dragonflight cause I liked the dragonmaw clan actually going yeah what we did was kind of messed up when we were with the old, dark and true horde or is their another one)
Ouch, sub 200k Orcs in all, maybe sub 180k. And the only reason so many are adults is due to aging tech/magic.
And even then, a huge portion of Orcs want to wage war. I can see why Thrall is trying so hard to refocus the New Horde onto a less destructive path. They are on a downward spiral to extinction. Grok's way is not as destructive as the Fel or Dark Horde, but it too glorifies combat and he has lead his Orcs to their deaths quite often.
Thrall's way is probably the best way forward, but he needs generations to shift Orcish culture. Time he is not going to get thanks to Azeroth being a radioactive dumpster fire.
And even then, a huge portion of Orcs want to wage war. I can see why Thrall is trying so hard to refocus the New Horde onto a less destructive path. They are on a downward spiral to extinction. Grok's way is not as destructive as the Fel or Dark Horde, but it too glorifies combat and he has lead his Orcs to their deaths quite often.
Thrall's way is probably the best way forward, but he needs generations to shift Orcish culture. Time he is not going to get thanks to Azeroth being a radioactive dumpster fire.
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Also thrall doesn't really tackle the issues with the orkish culture (not that grok is doing much better since he is with people who like blackhand ways of doing aka the guy who if someone weak is born in my clan I exile them or I am willing to kill my own daugther for running away (side note wonder if the fact she run of with an ogre had any part of this descion) or his I will age my kids up so they can fight earlier) since drek'thar, doomhammer and grom blammed everything on evil warlock but change is a slow thing and letting the warsong fight the nightelves it doesn't seem to change soon
edit : for example gul'dan and the pale orcs are directly because of orkish culture failures of their shamisim lead them to become that (guldan being a cripple also didn't help) since they falied and were kicked out
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MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
To be fair to Gork he never properly stop to mold his warband, i would guess that if is sucefully imprint his way on the his band it will be a big shift towars aspects of self mastery, stoicism and self improvement as a means of purification, there would also have a huge deal about honour familial loyalty and above all else frogin yourself into your best self.
Basically a order of warrior monks that also function as a country.
Gork is an wierd Ork.
Basically a order of warrior monks that also function as a country.
Gork is an wierd Ork.
I'm getting historic vibes. I'm not sure what to put my finger on while Alterac is in the position of free real estate thanks to the past rulers leading it there and Grok is there to profit from it.
Well, in my opinion, both the path of Thrall and the path of Grock are both not ideal for orcs in terms of population recovery.
Thrall is trying to make them orcs - people, but his tool is not unsuccessful for this, the orcs are inherently prone to war, and in his life he simply will not have time to do this, and in the horde he has enough other races that will willingly occupy the peaceful niche trade/craft people.
Grock tries to follow the path of the Mandalorians, leaving the aggressive culture aggressive and prone to violence, but more controlled (honor instead of bloodthirsty martial prowess) and embedded in society. So far, all this is leading to the fact that the orcs will become in Alterac (and I still find it funny that, given their past, they will be ruled by orcs) or the grassroots aristocracy of the level of knights, or a professional army. The path is not bad, of course, but it still means that the orcs will fight and die en masse, and even more likely their remaining descendants will be half-orcs. Unless something unexpected happens, like the assimilation of a large local clan, or mass emigration from Kalimdor or Draenor, the orcs of Grok in Alterac will dissolve in 2-3 generations, leaving behind only green-skinned knights.
Thrall is trying to make them orcs - people, but his tool is not unsuccessful for this, the orcs are inherently prone to war, and in his life he simply will not have time to do this, and in the horde he has enough other races that will willingly occupy the peaceful niche trade/craft people.
Grock tries to follow the path of the Mandalorians, leaving the aggressive culture aggressive and prone to violence, but more controlled (honor instead of bloodthirsty martial prowess) and embedded in society. So far, all this is leading to the fact that the orcs will become in Alterac (and I still find it funny that, given their past, they will be ruled by orcs) or the grassroots aristocracy of the level of knights, or a professional army. The path is not bad, of course, but it still means that the orcs will fight and die en masse, and even more likely their remaining descendants will be half-orcs. Unless something unexpected happens, like the assimilation of a large local clan, or mass emigration from Kalimdor or Draenor, the orcs of Grok in Alterac will dissolve in 2-3 generations, leaving behind only green-skinned knights.
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the problem with this is that the forsken are not really liked so outside of the burning blade which thrall already doesn't like cause some of their "rouge" members tried to start a war with theomore, the darkspear tribe of trolls are a minor tribe that needs orc protection last we checked in and the taruen stick to thunderbluff so orcs need to do most of the stuff for their own settlements (and orcs do have a peon class which grok brings up when he mentions at least the humans didn't ask for our help building since thats peon work) and vrak father is a farmer if I recall the horde isn't really unifed yet
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I know there's been some personnel changes at Blizzard but I'm not especially convinced by such a suggestion. From what everyone seems to say the writing for Dragonflight seems to have been good, whereas Shadowlands was nonsense. It frustrates me that they could have had a quest like that several expansions ago, either during Cata perhaps to discuss how the Orcs are dealing with political change, or after WoD. Doesn't really matter I just think it's important to actually have lore stuff for the races.
Indeed, but that's sort of their only policy option. Ner'zuhl experiences this after the Second War. He's sitting on Draenor with half the Horde and says 'hm this isnt great we'll have to try invading another world and see if it goes better'. There's no other option he thinks is possible.
Similarly, Thrall's policies are this awkward mix of armed pacifism. He doesn't like attacking people, but he's also fine with the general militarism of the Orcs and feels that's a good thing to have. It means he can never expand or kick the Kul Tirans out for example, or always has centaur problems, and therefore never finds proper security.
Indeed, but this does go to a general question of what each of them want to acheive. Both understand that the current culture is somewhat artificial. Thrall wants to sort of go back to the Pre-Horde Orcs, but knjows that's a stupid idea because nationhood is strong, Grok doesn't have as negative view of the Old Horde and would therefore be willing to do more military stuff, and also sees the Orcs as more of a useful military tool against the Legion etc.
I think it was more the inherant hypocrisy of aging everyone elses children up but not your own.
In the very old lore, we're talking pre-Classic sometimes and the RPG books, when Warcraft is still extensively drawing from LotR and DnD, there are indeed more half orcs. In the newer lore though they're almost non-existant. In theory, the compatible pairings should be troll/elf, human/dwarf/trogg/gnome, orc/ogre. But the only actual half-breeds we get are Lantressor, Garona and the Mok'Nathal. I don't really see how Draenei/orc works, given that they're from differnet worlds, and there's no modern interpretation in the lore that there are lots of half-breeds everywhere.
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when in doubt do as the orcs do and blame gul'dan
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
This is when the familial loyalty comes really, have a lot of kids, teach them well they become part of your history and yours theirs, like You was to your parents, fight and die en masse it's also a bit diferent as a paradigm the way that warfare is evolving under Gork means less orcs die from lerroy jenkins too.
So the orcs are slowly dying out. That's kind of sad. Maybe Alterac should become a new homeland for orcs if nothing else but as a place for some repopulation to happen
That in a nutshell. Gul'dan is just one big ugly root of problems that everyone will be forever dealing with.