Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

What do you expect was a point where we had a choice? Investigate this nonsense? Obviously we were gonna do that. Staff holder is being a dick? Ok fine, stab liberally until dead. Elemental pops out and starts being an asshole? More stabbings. Elementals don't stay dead? Bind the fucker until we can sort this shit out.

We are an Orc! What's more we're a Blademaster. There's only so many ways this could have gone.
 
..Oh you mean like the last fucking time!

Which he apparently has not learned the lesson from, or we might have at least had an option to not do this!

But no apparently "he's a dark shamen" so anything he might have picked up from the proud peak incident has apparently been entirely ignored.
It's why he's done it again. His realisation of being a pawn mislead into freeing an elemental being forced him to consider imprisoning again what he fears to be another sealed evil in a can because he was warned just killing them would be bad.


AND IN THE MEANTIME IF WE DON'T WE'RE WEARING A FUCKING NUKE!

Like Proudpeak.

AGAIN!

But if we do interact with it, then we're likely to get our heads blown off because Grok, and say it with me ya'll, HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE'S DOING!

He is not even a novice shamen, he has no teachers and we now have a fucking princess of the earth bound to a wrist an elemental that is as far from proudpeak as a pebble is from a mountain, that hates his guts and is corrupted to boot NONE OF WHICH WE GOT TO CHOOSE!

And finally who are we going to talk too? Practically everyone we know tries to justify why things like Proudpeak weren't his fault. People keep trying to shield from the consequences of his actions for gods sakes!

I wouldn't be pissing ups such a fuss if it wasn't for that rather garguantuan detail.
Calm down and chill.

He can first start by talking to the one who mislead him on this wild goose chase and then his other spell casters.
 
What do you expect was a point where we had a choice? Investigate this nonsense? Obviously we were gonna do that. Staff holder is being a dick? Ok fine, stab liberally until dead. Elemental pops out and starts being an asshole? More stabbings. Elementals don't stay dead? Bind the fucker until we can sort this shit out.

We are an Orc! What's more we're a Blademaster. There's only so many ways this could have gone.
Off the top of my head a break point between us getting the staff and deciding whether or not to break it immidiately or instead investigate it for unforseen consequences. You know like what immediately happened.

Grok is (supposedly) not an idiot, taking some time to investigate that does not seem like a particularly strange move and at least it puts the choice (and the consequences) back in the players hands if we chose to ignore it.

He can first start by talking to the one who mislead him on this wild goose chase and then his other spell casters.
Great, they're going to be "so useful."

I can't wait to hear their opinions when most of the orcs won't see what the problem is if not congratulate him and most of the alliance people don't get WTF is going on.
 
The spirit interestingly enough was corrupted by the old gods so maybe we'll see some interactions that will be more cordial in time than
Are you referring to Forneus? I suppose potentially he might have been subverted because the centaur sort of are, but no there's no specific reason to assume he himself was corrupted. If it was Myr instead then yea canonically shes corrupted so sure

I'm guessing it's a matter of agency being taken from us due to past choices/experiences. Guess Grok just is on auto-aggro for any elementals now, given the debacle with Forneus and Proudpeak... and basically any other elemental he has interacted with.
For the first part, pretty much yea but I'll address below, on the second, not really. Grok will have an inherantly suspicious stance toward them, but its not necessarily an overtly hostile one. If there's an elemental minding its own buisness then he would be fine leaving it alone, but he wouldn't go out of his way to help them out when he can put them down instead, for example. Again, more on this below.
I chuckled how Grok didn't even question it, he's just that expectant of having to deal with angry elementals.
Keep in mind Zaruk here is intentionally playing on Grok's fears. Whether Zaruk specifically is keyed into the wider old god aligned forces' intel network or not, even Grok announcing that he fought forneus earlier etc is notable. It was a gamble, it paid off, though perhaps not completely because ideally Myr would be free and not bound to you.
Myzrael was freed from her curse when she got killed, and although she had a minor Titan model, she was supposed to be just an Earth Elemental in the lore, and was friendly in Deepholm. Of course, that's rather malleable as well for the quest runner. Honestly, that whole questline barely fits into established lore.
Yea I've written her as just a bit rocky woman. She's got rock for skin and shes wearing rock clothes etc, so she's of a hgher rank, closer to the Titan's designs perhaps, but the interactions between titan stuff and elementals is always a bit fraught. Yes though she's an elemental, not a Watcher like Archeus or Ra-den. It is indeed older lore when stuff was less well established
if we do meet with Earthern Ring, I'm in favor of giving them the item that binds Myzrael
Possibly, they'd probably want to purify it or some other such thing, but it would also depend whether grok wants to give it up. He's got an ancient draenorian fire spirit in his sword for example, would he want to give that away?
Mayhaps afar from whatever is in the Arathi Highlands she won't be so "tyrannical" and they'll be able to unbind and calm her down.
Possibly certainly
Is it WoW's fault though? Warcraft II Trolls
Meh. All the races became more substantial in WoW. Some were calmed down, the elves are more chill for example, others were turned up or pushed toward particular sterotypes. The centaur are more mongolish, the tauren are made more explicitly native american, stuff like that really. Its a specific and intended consequence to make the trolls like they are, just like with BoA they made them more mayan or aztec. In Warcraft 2 comparably all the human and orcish factions, ie kul tiras vs the stormreavers etc

@Doomed Wombat will address your poitns ina separate post
 
Great, they're going to be "so useful."

I can't wait to hear their opinions when most of the orcs won't see what the problem is if not congratulate him and most of the alliance people don't get WTF is going on.
How else does an investigation start into this Mythral at all without consulting the warband's current spell casters?
Are you referring to Forneus? I suppose potentially he might have been subverted because the centaur sort of are, but no there's no specific reason to assume he himself was corrupted. If it was Myr instead then yea canonically shes corrupted so sure
I was talking of Myr.

Forneus did his willingly. Any chance of a round two for him? I am high up on writing an omake where an older badass Grok now known as the Breaker goes directly to the elemental planes to face him there.
 
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How else does an investigation start into this Mythral at all without consulting the warband's current spell casters?
Oh for certain we can ask them for input, its just a bit late now.

Cats out of the bag and they're not going to be any help with the current problem of angry very powerful earth elemental strapped to Grok's wrist.
 
Oh for certain we can ask them for input, its just a bit late now.

Cats out of the bag and they're not going to be any help with the current problem of angry very powerful earth elemental strapped to Grok's wrist.
Indeed. He got snookered so that spellcaster will need to explain themselves.

She's going to be angry regardless of who trapped her. Grok is now their warden rather than the guardians he slayed.

@FractiousDay was that really Forneus exclaiming shock at Grok's actions?

@Doomed Wombat I tapped the wrong place on the phone while scrolling down so don't take that laughing emoticon rating suspiciously when I removed it. It was accidental.
 
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Dark Shaman implications
Right so the issue is becoming somewhat complex so I'll try and address each point. Sorry if I miss something and feel free to ask qs.

Being a 'Dark Shaman' doesn't necessarily force you to do anything in particular. I've been considering how to explain it, and I've been thinking about vegetarianism. Would you regard a cow being milked or a pig in a sty as slavery? Possibly, what about an ape in a testing facility? Again, possibly. While some Elementals are indeed pretty much just weird humans, sentient, desiring various things, being able to feel emotions, others definitely aren't, and this distinction is present in various ways. Some elementals are unknowable, some are friendly, some are capricious, some are hostile, it really varies. What we certainly can say is that some people in Warcraft are absolutly fine with enslaving them, in the same way you'd 'enslave' a horse to pull a cart for you. Similarly, others are fine with killing elementals in the same way you'd kill a rapid dog that was biting people.

Grok's 'development' puts him on one side of the debate. Not deep in that side, really just over the line. Even Thrall practices Dark Shamanism on one occasion, so it's not unknown to do such a thing, ultimately lots of shaman do put humanoid welfare above elemental welfare. Grok therefore isn't going to be forced to enslave every elemental he comes across or actively seek out ones to attack (unless voters want to I suppose). I want to be really clear on this, the only thing I'm railroading you into (and its not even that), is a broad philosophical perspective.

Grok will, for example, be suspicious of elementals, be more inclined to distrust them, or to return hostility rather than turning the other cheek etc. That's about it for the immediate impacts. He's still a pretty sensible guy though, so he wouldn't stupidly pedantic about always thinking elementals were out to get him etc.

You might also ask whether Grok is necessarily enslaving something, or perhaps guarding it. Is it ok to use prison labour? That's a debate to have although its not massivelt relevant, but I basically want to point out that the specific realationship between Grok and Myzrael can be considered.

Yes indeed, Dark Shamanism, although having a pretty bad name, is common among Orcs. Some do it more, notably the Blackrock and Burning Blade. This has been established in story, your first taste of Shamanism was the Flamebenders Tome after all. I've written before about differing orc perceptions of shaman, Grok certainly holds a few views around this, to him elementals have never been this deep spiritiual unquestionable thing because Feldad has always told him about how the Elementals abandoned the orcs etc and how all the shaman became warlocks.

Grok was tricked. Zaruk presumably wanted to kill Fozruk the Giant to release the other elementals Fozruk had been guarding, Zaruk perhaps didn't know Myzrael was trapped too, however, once he did realise it, he took what steps he could to recover the situation. Grok meanwhile trusts magic users genreally and falls for Zaruk's trick because of his previous issues (eg trauma from Forneus). I hope this came though, it seemed pretty reasonable to me and in character etc.

One thing we might generally look to consider is whether problems are with me the author writing particular things and directing you in various ways, or instead with the actual presentation, I do hope at least that the presentation was sufficient to show why stuff happened.

To assure people on a few points, although sure there are consequences to everything, the actions taken here will be understandable to most people. Grok was advised by an expert that kill Myzrael would free her, which would be bad, so he bound her instead. Other experienced shaman might disagree, but this was ultimately a logical and reasonable thing to do at the time. This isn't helped by Zaruk doing some very quick talking after the event to deflect suspicion, assure Grok he did the right thing etc. Grok was very tunnel visioned at the time, I was writing as sort of confusing stuff with Forneus which I suppose you might say is sort of stress response.

Additionally, I'm probably going ot have a short timeskip after Naxx, so I'm fine with just awarding you actions/spells. You'd have had to spend them anyway to train in various ways, but I can handle this through narration. This won't result in a load of mandatory actions.

Nothing terrible will occour because of this. Forneus breaking through the world caused a mini-cataclysm and has made Deathwing breaking out easier, or Pandaria being reavealed more proximate, but Myzrael wont have those sorts of far reaching effects, maybe there was a local earthquake and a couple of dry stone walls fell down.

Nor is Myzrael about to jump out and be all 'ohohoho you shouldtn have imprisoned me', Grok has indeed learned the lesson of Proudpeak. I tend to foreshadow stuff like that but I wouldn't want to take away shinies unless I was going ot replace them. You lost your first sword for exampl ebut then you got a better one pretty soon after. I suppose there are some circumstances where I might do such a thing but it seems unecessarily mean.

As a general point around discontent, sometimes bad stuff happens and you have to deal with it. I as the author enjoy throwing curveballs at you, and you therefore have t omanage how to resolve conflict etc. There's several I've been hinting at waiting in the wings which may or may not be revealed. Additionally, sometimes there's suboptimal events forced on you. Partly this is because events of the world are moving aroun dyou, partly its because Grok isn't necessarily equipped to see the best option. I would generally encourage you to see this as a challenge rather than as something to be concerened about.

This specific development, the whole Dark Shaman thing, has been foreshadowed a lot. I did indeed give the thread a taste of this at the Battle of Stromgarde, where Grok chose orc welfare over elemental welfare. This wasn't the final switch etc, this is a general development of Grok's character and experiences over time. Although I'm not necessarily thinking about agency as much as at the start of the quest, this is still certainly a theme of the quest.

Around lesson learning, this is indeed a lesson. It might be a confused one, it might be an emotive one, but Grok is very much imperfect. For him, what is the 'lesson' of Proudpeak? Don't attack and kidnap people perhaps? Maybe sure, but it might also be simply that you need to be more powerful before doing so. What might another lesson be around Forneus? That sometimes Elementals just jump out the ground and take massively over the top actoins (from your perspective)? Possibly it might also be that Elementals are inherantly untrustwothy and unknowable, and should therefore be opposed.

On Grok's existing connections, the Spirit one is the only one you have inately, like from childhood etc. The fire stuff is slightly more complciated, you are carrying round an ancestral sword with a ancient and powerful fire spirit in it, so that's notable. It's a complicated matter anyway. What defines a shaman? Spiritual ability? Knowledge of meditation and practices? Why can goblins become shaman then given that they're neither? etc etc.

On teachers, we're doing Alterac after Naxx so I'll just use Drek'thar, I was planning a meeting with him anyway where you can visit the Frostwolves, so that's certainly something to bring up. They can certainly offer a challenge that might make him think, but Drek'thar also cannonically begged on his knees to be taught the Fel, so again, it's a complicated cultural practice there are no easy answers.



I think that's everything for the moment, but happy to exposit on particular points
 
@FractiousDay was that really Forneus exclaiming shock at Grok's actions?
Nope, uninvolved, it's just Grok imagening things and drawing conclusions that aren't there. Standard implicit bias etc. Specifically:

March of Forneus sitting heavy upon your mind,

once again you're reminded of Forneus

Stop mortals!" comes the voice of Forneus, bellowing from your nightmares

Forneus looms, but you stand firm.

The spectre of Forneus, Grok's failures, but also successes in getting his father's acknoledgement etc, is pretty significant as an event in Grok's life. Forneus isn't hiding behind a bush, it's more Grok imagening things. Not like an actual hallucination, but maybe like if you didn't like somesome and they wore a particular colour a lot, that colour would begin to have negative associations for you.
 
a confused one, it might be an emotive one, but Grok is very much imperfect. For him, what is the 'lesson' of Proudpeak? Don't attack and kidnap people perhaps? Maybe sure, but it might also be simply that you need to be more powerful before doing so. What might another lesson be around Forneus? That sometimes Elementals just jump out the ground and take massively over the top actoins (from your perspective)? Possibly it might also be that Elementals are inherantly untrustwothy and unknowable, and should therefore be opposed.

On Grok's existing connections, the Spirit one is the only one you have inately, like from childhood etc. The fire stuff is slightly more complciated, you are carrying round an ancestral sword with a ancient and powerful fire spirit in it, so that's notable. It's a complicated matter anyway. What defines a shaman? Spiritual ability? Knowledge of meditation and practices? Why can goblins become shaman then given that they're neither? etc etc.
I'm drawing something myself from Forneus looking down on Grok and the rest of the meat bags as fleshlings. It stings but as true as that is the lessons imparted by Feldad also mean their arrogance can be their undoing.

It has to do with the Revengeance song Rules of Nature.

He's not going to go on a catch em all elemental spree but I see him trying other ways to learn the elements rather than just stick to one method.

Currently his path lead him more to dark shamanism. If he meets a more friendly and interactable elemental he'll respond in courtesy but if they're a threat and in his way he'll kick their asses.
 
Any chance of a round two for him? I am high up on writing an omake where an older badass Grok now known as the Breaker goes directly to the elemental planes to face him there.
You'll probably eventually end up in deepholme so sure potentially, but I also think by that time grok will have chilled out a lot. Forneus after all was basically a hitman, he was on a job, he didn't bear you any specific malice (other than you being a smelly warlock)
 
My read is that if we want Grok to be better about Shamanism we're…Well.
Frankly we are going to need to get new ideas in his head the slow way. We tried to get good shamanism and those guys tend to recoil in horror or annoy Grok with what to him is pointless moralizing because Burning Blade ways don't do the same 'co-operation' stuff.
The Light is a good starting point-Grok seems to like it and it's not disagreeing with anything he's seen and learned. Unlike Thrall's white-washed take on Shamanism.
But the other catch is ProudPeak and the problems of that incident- we basically repeated the point that Shamanism has limits where the Fel and Warlocks doesn't- Nerzul stopped Forneus and Thrall couldn't.
And this time not even Thrall could deny it.
I think it's potentially good that we blew the lid off that, IF we give Thrall time for damage control and facing the issue of what true 'Orcish' is all about. Which potentially means better Though the flipside is Elemental-wielding is going to be rather…Passé in the Horde until the Shamans can rebuild their legitimacy.
Now, an answer to how to Elementalism right, if I understand it correctly, might be making a point of going to Pandaria and meeting those Elementals-it might set Grok at ease or at least show him a new path, one that won't have the baggage of historical failures, or basically being 'beg for that which you take' from his perspective.

I personally want to explore that thing Grok did where he got his sword and his men's blades to light with fire all at once-that's interesting and while having to get it second-hand from the Burning Blade is not how Thrall would like to have it filter in, getting that technique codified and added to the book of 'Shaman tricks' might be something he can do things with later on.
 
You'll probably eventually end up in deepholme so sure potentially, but I also think by that time grok will have chilled out a lot. Forneus after all was basically a hitman, he was on a job, he didn't bear you any specific malice (other than you being a smelly warlock)
I don't mind that. I just think he needs closure of the kind involving a battle if he's capable of beating him.

It's basically pride. I imagine him the sort to not suffer any of this belittling from this high and mighty elemental so he'll take him down a peg and then bind him to clean up his mess and then learn from the fleshlings he so derides and eventually be freed after defending Orgimnar from a major threat.

I personally want to explore that thing Grok did where he got his sword and his men's blades to light with fire all at once-that's interesting and while having to get it second-hand from the Burning Blade is not how Thrall would like to have it filter in, getting that technique codified and added to the book of 'Shaman tricks' might be something he can do things with later on.
It's his sword with the fire spirit from Draenor.
 
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... that's not really how this works, Forneus was given a task via spell craft and attempted to complete it, there's very little room or call for some sort of character growth or redemption arc. Especially now that centaurs are apparently extinct.
 
... ok on the one hand we didn't participate in the extinction of a sapient species, that's good.

On the other there's four more whole clans of that running around.

Please tell me those were the crazy ones.
 
... that's not really how this works, Forneus was given a task via spell craft and attempted to complete it, there's very little room or call for some sort of character growth or redemption arc. Especially now that centaurs are apparently extinct.
Not for Forneus no but it's to drive a point not to look down on fleshlings that stink of a warlock and that just feels right which is why I want to write it out.
 
As per foreshadowing and railroading, at every point in the last update where Grok might have made a different choice OP wrote in references to Grok's previous major decisions and background (all things we voted specifically on), so it all felt in character. It's consistent writing all the way down.

One of the big differences in a quest like this and say, a dnd game, is that the viewpoint character is not a player character. Each update covers a day to months of in-game time, and so by necessity the main character is going to have to be on autopilot for most of that. We as reader-voters can guide that autopilot by characterizing Grok's viewpoint/motivations, and voting on major decisions, but that's all the format allows.

Even with that limitation though, this quest does really well at making the reader discussion and weighed voting part of his inner dialogue instead of it just being first past the post voting. It makes me feel like I'm part of an actual community of discourse in shaping how our orkyboi acts and thinks when we're not looking, as opposed to other established quests where you just kinda have to bandwagon onto whatever plan the "important" readers make (if you even vote at all).

On kind of a related note, it definitely felt good to see Grok absolutely shred through this solo boss fight. It definitely marked a point of maturation and even a bit of closure in his pre-exile/revanchist exile character arc
 
One point of note is his issue with the spirits when he claimed relationship through Grond. Looking into it the elementals if Draenor though related are markedly different from the ones in Azeroth. They didn't fight as much with each other unlike their cousins in Azeroth probably as a result of Grond's creation.
 
I'm quite happy with the course of the question. I've liked the various curveballs thrown at times.

... that's not really how this works, Forneus was given a task via spell craft and attempted to complete it, there's very little room or call for some sort of character growth or redemption arc. Especially now that centaurs are apparently extinct.
The Kolkar clan presence in the Barrens was wiped out with the rest of that clan elsewhere. The other 4 still around, though I'd suspect there might be extra competition over resources for the clans with a presence in the Barrens and other groups due to environmental damage caused by Forneus. Course we won't learn about the actual situation there till the QM informs us of it.
 
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Right so the issue is becoming somewhat complex so I'll try and address each point. Sorry if I miss something and feel free to ask qs.

Being a 'Dark Shaman' doesn't necessarily force you to do anything in particular. I've been considering how to explain it, and I've been thinking about vegetarianism. Would you regard a cow being milked or a pig in a sty as slavery? Possibly, what about an ape in a testing facility? Again, possibly. While some Elementals are indeed pretty much just weird humans, sentient, desiring various things, being able to feel emotions, others definitely aren't, and this distinction is present in various ways. Some elementals are unknowable, some are friendly, some are capricious, some are hostile, it really varies. What we certainly can say is that some people in Warcraft are absolutly fine with enslaving them, in the same way you'd 'enslave' a horse to pull a cart for you. Similarly, others are fine with killing elementals in the same way you'd kill a rapid dog that was biting people.

Grok's 'development' puts him on one side of the debate. Not deep in that side, really just over the line. Even Thrall practices Dark Shamanism on one occasion, so it's not unknown to do such a thing, ultimately lots of shaman do put humanoid welfare above elemental welfare. Grok therefore isn't going to be forced to enslave every elemental he comes across or actively seek out ones to attack (unless voters want to I suppose). I want to be really clear on this, the only thing I'm railroading you into (and its not even that), is a broad philosophical perspective.

Grok will, for example, be suspicious of elementals, be more inclined to distrust them, or to return hostility rather than turning the other cheek etc. That's about it for the immediate impacts. He's still a pretty sensible guy though, so he wouldn't stupidly pedantic about always thinking elementals were out to get him etc.

You might also ask whether Grok is necessarily enslaving something, or perhaps guarding it. Is it ok to use prison labour? That's a debate to have although its not massivelt relevant, but I basically want to point out that the specific realationship between Grok and Myzrael can be considered.

Yes indeed, Dark Shamanism, although having a pretty bad name, is common among Orcs. Some do it more, notably the Blackrock and Burning Blade. This has been established in story, your first taste of Shamanism was the Flamebenders Tome after all. I've written before about differing orc perceptions of shaman, Grok certainly holds a few views around this, to him elementals have never been this deep spiritiual unquestionable thing because Feldad has always told him about how the Elementals abandoned the orcs etc and how all the shaman became warlocks.

Grok was tricked. Zaruk presumably wanted to kill Fozruk the Giant to release the other elementals Fozruk had been guarding, Zaruk perhaps didn't know Myzrael was trapped too, however, once he did realise it, he took what steps he could to recover the situation. Grok meanwhile trusts magic users genreally and falls for Zaruk's trick because of his previous issues (eg trauma from Forneus). I hope this came though, it seemed pretty reasonable to me and in character etc.

One thing we might generally look to consider is whether problems are with me the author writing particular things and directing you in various ways, or instead with the actual presentation, I do hope at least that the presentation was sufficient to show why stuff happened.

To assure people on a few points, although sure there are consequences to everything, the actions taken here will be understandable to most people. Grok was advised by an expert that kill Myzrael would free her, which would be bad, so he bound her instead. Other experienced shaman might disagree, but this was ultimately a logical and reasonable thing to do at the time. This isn't helped by Zaruk doing some very quick talking after the event to deflect suspicion, assure Grok he did the right thing etc. Grok was very tunnel visioned at the time, I was writing as sort of confusing stuff with Forneus which I suppose you might say is sort of stress response.

Additionally, I'm probably going ot have a short timeskip after Naxx, so I'm fine with just awarding you actions/spells. You'd have had to spend them anyway to train in various ways, but I can handle this through narration. This won't result in a load of mandatory actions.

Nothing terrible will occour because of this. Forneus breaking through the world caused a mini-cataclysm and has made Deathwing breaking out easier, or Pandaria being reavealed more proximate, but Myzrael wont have those sorts of far reaching effects, maybe there was a local earthquake and a couple of dry stone walls fell down.

Nor is Myzrael about to jump out and be all 'ohohoho you shouldtn have imprisoned me', Grok has indeed learned the lesson of Proudpeak. I tend to foreshadow stuff like that but I wouldn't want to take away shinies unless I was going ot replace them. You lost your first sword for exampl ebut then you got a better one pretty soon after. I suppose there are some circumstances where I might do such a thing but it seems unecessarily mean.

As a general point around discontent, sometimes bad stuff happens and you have to deal with it. I as the author enjoy throwing curveballs at you, and you therefore have t omanage how to resolve conflict etc. There's several I've been hinting at waiting in the wings which may or may not be revealed. Additionally, sometimes there's suboptimal events forced on you. Partly this is because events of the world are moving aroun dyou, partly its because Grok isn't necessarily equipped to see the best option. I would generally encourage you to see this as a challenge rather than as something to be concerened about.

This specific development, the whole Dark Shaman thing, has been foreshadowed a lot. I did indeed give the thread a taste of this at the Battle of Stromgarde, where Grok chose orc welfare over elemental welfare. This wasn't the final switch etc, this is a general development of Grok's character and experiences over time. Although I'm not necessarily thinking about agency as much as at the start of the quest, this is still certainly a theme of the quest.

Around lesson learning, this is indeed a lesson. It might be a confused one, it might be an emotive one, but Grok is very much imperfect. For him, what is the 'lesson' of Proudpeak? Don't attack and kidnap people perhaps? Maybe sure, but it might also be simply that you need to be more powerful before doing so. What might another lesson be around Forneus? That sometimes Elementals just jump out the ground and take massively over the top actoins (from your perspective)? Possibly it might also be that Elementals are inherantly untrustwothy and unknowable, and should therefore be opposed.

On Grok's existing connections, the Spirit one is the only one you have inately, like from childhood etc. The fire stuff is slightly more complciated, you are carrying round an ancestral sword with a ancient and powerful fire spirit in it, so that's notable. It's a complicated matter anyway. What defines a shaman? Spiritual ability? Knowledge of meditation and practices? Why can goblins become shaman then given that they're neither? etc etc.

On teachers, we're doing Alterac after Naxx so I'll just use Drek'thar, I was planning a meeting with him anyway where you can visit the Frostwolves, so that's certainly something to bring up. They can certainly offer a challenge that might make him think, but Drek'thar also cannonically begged on his knees to be taught the Fel, so again, it's a complicated cultural practice there are no easy answers.



I think that's everything for the moment, but happy to exposit on particular points

Which I would call something of a self-fulfilling prophecy eh.

What is there to distrust or even be suspicious of, he pissed off proudpeak and Forneaus wasn't doing anything suspicious. He did the job he was summoned for, other than that we've had so few interactions with elementals that's...well about in terms of major ones.

It is one thing to lean things in a particular direction and another to take away the wheel entirely. Being able to weight things through what information is presented and we have access too is a core of the game and for all we know our own decision making might well have resulted in the exact same outcome, but don't know that anymore do I?

If this was a conventional story then that'd be all fine and dandy, but this is a quest with player participation, and I think we could have made some reasonable arguments based on Grok's character to bring about different outcomes.

Myzrael at the time was also noted as extremely weakened, enough that a weak ass like Grok could take her down, and what's more "he's learned the lesson of proudpeak" doesn't reassure me when Grok is no better as a Shamen then the last time he tried this on a weaker elemental, one who is currently recovering in Deepholm. Furthermore as you have said you like throwing curve balls at us, so I am not exactly trusting of reassurances that she won't get out say during a massive battle for Naxramus.

No I see it as a challenge, our goal is to try and get the best outcomes and achieve the most we can, and that' means making the most of these situations. When they happen because of our own stupidity that's on us, like Proudpeak or the inevitable fucking army of Worgen that's going to pour out of silverpine at the worst possible moment.

I do think the quest has a problem that while you do like to claim the world is moving on without him its only one side that is, our enemies, not our allies they seem quite content to sit around being dicks. Why is it cogent on Grok to investigate silverpine for example, the SC has other people who likely wouldn't be shot on sight by any Gilneans hanging around.

People don't like being forced to do things they don't want to do, and some people are sore fucking loosers.

And if you are going to kidnap people be prepared for consequences FFS. Then again as a species the orcs don't seem to recognise that's a thing.

Oh boy I can't wait to get rejected again.

So in sum despite our calls for unity we've successfully broken the unity of the town by taking off with one of third of the thing that kept it working, we've got a pissed off earth princess on our wrist, cause Grok apparently isn't able to consider "maybe Cho'gall's fuck wits might have other agendas" and aforementioned fuck wits now have an even greater interest in him...lovely.

it definitely felt good to see Grok absolutely shred through this solo boss fight
Due to extenuating circumstances only. It wasn't a boss fight as much as it was punching a starving teen in the face.

Looking into it the elementals if Draenor though related are markedly different from the ones in Azeroth. They didn't fight as much with each other unlike their cousins in Azeroth probably as a result of Grond's creation.
Grond might impact it to a degree, but apparently Azeroth (the titan) is the major cause of it sucking up all of the spirit of life that should be balancing them out.

The influence of the Old Gods likely is just making this worse.
 
So in sum despite our calls for unity we've successfully broken the unity of the town by taking off with one of third of the thing that kept it working, we've got a pissed off earth princess on our wrist, cause Grok apparently isn't able to consider "maybe Cho'gall's fuck wits might have other agendas" and aforementioned fuck wits now have an even greater interest in him...lovely.
Wasn't the speech I was thinking of when I thought it would incorporate having the Stromgarde prince in our debt but eh mission is done.

The influence of the Old Gods likely is just making this worse.
Besides getting beaten and forced into servitude and then beaten by the titans and imprisoned in the planes.
 
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We don't necessarily know if Zaruk works for Cho'Gall and the OGs. In the game he was a former member of the TH. Heck, we don't know what's the exact status of the TH in this quest, whether it has various factions etc. We are playing in a very different world, characters like Neeru are also different from their game counterparts.

Honestly, I don't see what's to panic about right now. Nothing terrible happened, aside from... Grok not being the perfect goodboy shaman?
 
I'm calm about it. Taking it all calmly. No dooming.

I'm curious of the possibilities myself.

I do want to try out two omakes because of it.
 
What is there to distrust or even be suspicious of, he pissed off proudpeak and Forneaus wasn't doing anything suspicious. He did the job he was summoned for, other than that we've had so few interactions with elementals that's...well about in terms of major ones.
So I did that long post previously about grok's interactions with elementals, but you've also got to remember its not just his interactions, it's those of people he trusts, people who influence him. For example, Thrall can advocate for Frostwolf-Shamanism as much as he likes ,but Grok knows the Frostwolves' brand of shamanism has failed them several times. For example, Thrall failed hard at protecting Orgrimmar, and it was Feldad who managed it. Yes, Grok does indeed have relatively limited interactions with Elementals, he's met like 5 I think, but he's been around people who've learnt more.

I would also note that this isn't necessarily objectively rational. The Elements of Draenor had very good reason to stop patronising the Orcs when they were going all felly, but that doesn't mean the orcs aren't sad about it. They just suddenly lost their connections, even those who didn't take the Fel. They might know what went on subsequently, but they probably also feel resentful etc.
It is one thing to lean things in a particular direction and another to take away the wheel entirely. Being able to weight things through what information is presented and we have access too is a core of the game and for all we know our own decision making might well have resulted in the exact same outcome, but don't know that anymore do I?

If this was a conventional story then that'd be all fine and dandy, but this is a quest with player participation, and I think we could have made some reasonable arguments based on Grok's character to bring about different outcomes.
I disagree. I get your point certainly, but in this particular scenario there was no time to investigate, or at least Grok felt there was no time. That was the only option he could see to resovle the situation, and as mentioned previously he was scared of another Forneus and really wanted to prevent that.

Similarly I was trying to make it clear by refs to Forneus etc that Grok wasn't necessarily thinking straight during it. He's jumping at the narrative offered to him
Myzrael at the time was also noted as extremely weakened, enough that a weak ass like Grok could take her down, and what's more "he's learned the lesson of proudpeak" doesn't reassure me when Grok is no better as a Shamen then the last time he tried this on a weaker elemental, one who is currently recovering in Deepholm.
Not necesarily 'extremely', weaker than peak of course, but no she was still strong and it's a good victory for Grok. I wouldn't necessarily say he's a 'better' shaman, but he is at least more experienced
I do think the quest has a problem that while you do like to claim the world is moving on without him its only one side that is, our enemies, not our allies they seem quite content to sit around being dicks. Why is it cogent on Grok to investigate silverpine for example, the SC has other people who likely wouldn't be shot on sight by any Gilneans hanging around.
oh no your allies are doing stuff too, and I can certainly represent that more. You were responsible for a particular mission, the other missions go on without you, there would still have been people being sent to Gilenas etc. Dathrohan would have been leading the missions into Scholomance or Strathholme to get the reagents for Naxx etc, there's certainly stuff going on without you. Similarly, one of the paths you didn't choose was the War of Thorns one, so that's the Burning Blade's offensive against the quillboar etc.
So in sum despite our calls for unity we've successfully broken the unity of the town by taking off with one of third of the thing that kept it working, we've got a pissed off earth princess on our wrist, cause Grok apparently isn't able to consider "maybe Cho'gall's fuck wits might have other agendas" and aforementioned fuck wits now have an even greater interest in him...lovely.
Not a third, not nearly. Some of their warriors yes, but you've removed the ogres and syndicate, and massively weakened the Witherbark therefore, so you've made them more secure not less.

On the TH
We don't necessarily know if Zaruk works for Cho'Gall and the OGs. In the game he was a former member of the TH. Heck, we don't know what's the exact status of the TH in this quest, whether it has various factions etc. We are playing in a very different world, characters like Neeru are also different from their game counterparts.
Indeed, and Grok especially has very little idea of it. As far as most people are aware they dissapeared at the end of the 2nd War, and haven't been seen from since, at least in an organised fashion. Grok would have no reason to suspect such a person. It would be like meeting a Stormreaver, it would be very weird becaus eyou'd have assumed they were around, but no maybe not.
 
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