- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Does this guy strike you as being mentally stable and well?
Or just nudging things so that this particular guy, out of several, got sent.
NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)
- Thread starter I.F. Ister
- Start date
- Original Fantasy Action
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- Tags
- norse mythology (mythology) original xianxia cultivation western cultivation ask sirihand did your mother tell you anything? discussion pleases yggdrasil farming gloating gets people killed granary management hubris is a coward's word you will die norsemen do not die when they are killed the qm has a bad memory the qm is bad at math viking courtroom drama (legal drama) vikings
- Location
- Bretonnia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That seems more plausible. Although it seems equally plausible that this guy was just the best for the job, since 'Punching Down' would do wonders against dwarves since they're weak individually.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Again, I'm not protesting that the guy exists, I'm not even saying this is a bad plot development! Hopeless Boss Fights are as much a part of storytelling as generally being heroic is! (As long as they don't just bring the plot to a hard stop anyway, as would him actually killing us would, you need to foreshadow an actual 'You Might Die here' event, and this was basically a side-quest that escalated out of fucking nowhere from a narrative perspective, even if it makes sense if you step back and look at the macro picture)
As I keep saying, my big protest is that the existence of Twists that effectively go "Reality Ensues", goes against the themes of Twists and Norse Cultivation in general. The guy's already stacked enough for a dude who's not old enough to look visibly aged, that he has a Twist that also goes "BTW I'm stronger against people who are weaker than me in a way that is literally the exact opposite of your 'I'm stronger against people who are my superior' " is just, well, 'Twisting the Knife' from a meta standpoint. The guy being here isn't the problem, it's him setting a precedent that all but states "You literally cannot win because the entrenched interests will inevitably have magic that lets them directly counter the things that let you jump up age brackets, and the entrenched interests will always be older and more experienced than you are, with complete bullshit that's paid for by their patrons to ensure the boot is always on your neck."
Which is why I was mollified by the declaration that Punching-Down wasn't going to happen again.
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- Location
- Burgundian Netherlands
But...it has happened once so far? I feel like this would be a very valid point if it kept on happening and became a pattern (and you could legitimately start to doubt the fairness of the meta/it breaks the suspension of disbelief), but it feels like a bit of an overreaction and a bit of a vote of no confidence towards the QM to be indignant the first time someone no-sells a specific advantage we have with an hitherto unknown capability?
Perhaps I am missing something (I did not read the past 800 pages of discussion, though I read a fair deal), but I feel like that level of suspicion is simply unwarranted?
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CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Isn't that a normal Xianxia trope? This all feels very appropriate tbh
And we're gonna have many many goes at dismantling the system anyway
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
It's the fact the guy could identify our Twist on sight, and conveniently had a direct counter to it. The mere Existence of Punching Down in a system where the very best can effectively game the system so that they can acquire what they need is narratively dangerous for an underdog story.
An underdog needs to have an actual chance at performing an upset for the story to be compelling. If the meta at high levels includes 'Underdog Protection' above and beyond them just being stupidly strong and experienced, to the point where anyone who wants it can get it, then the underdog has no real chance of changing anything.
They win because they're stronger, not because they have magic that makes them better at crushing the weak. One makes perfect sense, the latter breaks the story because you need an equal degree of asspull to contest them.
I'm not saying "Halla needs to beat everything forever." I'm entirely fine with a Hopeless Boss Fight! I just think it's a dangerous precedent to effectively include "Underdog Protection" as part of the meta when they're already superior just by way of being Stronger.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah, okay, we get it.
Just... try to calm down, maybe? People do, I think basically understand what you're saying.
Even if "Punching Down" could happen again, that doesn't mean we'll run into it over and over every year or two. Or, hell, maybe we'll next meet it from some bullying little dipshit we can crush like a bug. Lots of people have weird Tricks, so there's no sense having a meltdown over its existence or any meta-game implications of it.
Not every Trick can be straightforwardly obtained by everyone who wants it.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I'm arguing against three people at once, and continually going "I don't dislike that the guy exists, I'm just anxious because it's an un-foreshadowed life-or-death battle against someone who seems to crush us in every respect." Is it any wonder I'm starting to come across as frantic?
Being at someone's mercy is an awful feeling. It's one thing if you intentionally put yourself in the line of fire where you knew there was a shot at getting your face wrecked, it's another thing entirely for it to happen seemingly out of nowhere to take a won battle and major contacts away from you if you didn't withdraw on the spot.
I'll also admit that I'm getting a bit upset at how people seem to think I'm attacking IF because they're trying to defend a Twist that does troubling things to the worldbuilding that he already agreed was a step too far.
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- Location
- Bretonnia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't really feel the same way? I can totally see Punching Down being a Twist one obtains for overcoming a bunch of weaker people that actually had a chance of killing him, or some other similar situation. I don't really have any issue with the trick existing, although I think it should have limits like Punching Up does - like the Enemy being weaker than you by a certain amount. It doesn't feel out of place in the setting, either. The issue here feels more like this guy is just overpowered, rather than Punching Down being a problem.
Uh, I'm willing to let the issue lie though, since I don't really care if it gets removed either way.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I would protest the existence of Punching Down no matter who had it, because 'The strong beating the weak' is not a plot twist, that's the expected outcome.
Because if you can make Twists that are "Whatever should happen does happen", then that opens up a veritable Pandora's box of nonsense.
Anyway, it seems like everyone's had their opinions, so can I take a break from defending my own outlook on things for a bit? Without getting people to just declare victory because I wasn't willing to fight three or more people at once in a post-off?
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
The issue with Punching Down as a Twist is.. you can't explain it as a Twist in-story.
Take a step back - or forward, as the case may be. You're telling a saga -within the setting, not outside the setting.
"And the mighty Jarl, punching downward, smashed the lowly thrall to bits!"
The answer you get is "..ooookay?" and the audience is confused. Obviously a jarl would kill a thrall in a fight, how is that even a question?
Whereas the obverse:
"The thrall, punching upward, slew the Jarl!"
And you get "Wow!" The audience is surprised by the Jarl suddenly dying to the Thrall like that.
Puncture and Dressed in Rags also work:
"But his spear pierced through the invincible iron wall!"
"But the begger dressed in rags, was none other that the great (CoolPersonName)!"
Take a step back - or forward, as the case may be. You're telling a saga -within the setting, not outside the setting.
"And the mighty Jarl, punching downward, smashed the lowly thrall to bits!"
The answer you get is "..ooookay?" and the audience is confused. Obviously a jarl would kill a thrall in a fight, how is that even a question?
Whereas the obverse:
"The thrall, punching upward, slew the Jarl!"
And you get "Wow!" The audience is surprised by the Jarl suddenly dying to the Thrall like that.
Puncture and Dressed in Rags also work:
"But his spear pierced through the invincible iron wall!"
"But the begger dressed in rags, was none other that the great (CoolPersonName)!"
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- Location
- Burgundian Netherlands
I'll retreat from the discussion after this, as I feel like most points have been made already, but:
I don't know where this premise comes from? Why not afford the QM the benefit of the doubt that a dangerous, strong ability is of commensurate rarity? From a bird's-eye perspective it is also of rather limited and niche use to its owner; it pays dividends against the once-in-a-blue-moon plucky upstart (though given that there are likely restrictions and conditions like its sister Twist I imagine it isn't a perfect defense) and a specific type of enemy that is harmless alone but extremely lethal in groups?
I feel like calling out the QM for a potential break of the meta before it has even happened is not very conducive to a good questing atmosphere, especially since the QM (to his credit!) seems very receptive to these sorts of comments and very willing to make corrections on the go?
EDIT: missed your last comment @Alectai, I did not mean to pile on. Feel free to disregard this.
I don't know where this premise comes from? Why not afford the QM the benefit of the doubt that a dangerous, strong ability is of commensurate rarity? From a bird's-eye perspective it is also of rather limited and niche use to its owner; it pays dividends against the once-in-a-blue-moon plucky upstart (though given that there are likely restrictions and conditions like its sister Twist I imagine it isn't a perfect defense) and a specific type of enemy that is harmless alone but extremely lethal in groups?
I feel like calling out the QM for a potential break of the meta before it has even happened is not very conducive to a good questing atmosphere, especially since the QM (to his credit!) seems very receptive to these sorts of comments and very willing to make corrections on the go?
EDIT: missed your last comment @Alectai, I did not mean to pile on. Feel free to disregard this.
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There's a difference between "He fought someone weaker and won" and "he likes to fight lesser cultivators and absolutely wreck them" (a classic xianxia Young Master) and "he once killed 500 men in the course of a battle, none could stand against him" (Achilles would be a great contender for Punching Down) and "the old monster faces the plucky upstart with a cheat skill and absolutely stomped him because he's Just That Good" (Aizen).
I think focusing on mechanical Twists as being exactly the same as narrative twists is a bit limiting, tbh. I'm fine with some Twists just being tropes.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think you're attacking; I can't speak for anyone else. It just seems that you're getting, like, super frantic.
It's okay.
We have a plan for this specific battle and reasonable hopes of surviving. Even if this particular Twist ever shows up again, it's not automatically something that will be there every time. To some extent this may actually be our warning of something we should have learned from the seeress, too, which is that experienced and canny Norsemen may know what Odr is even if True Norse Cultivation is a closed book to them. This guy, in particular, if he has a history of spending a lot of time being a mercenary and fighting scrubs and if he's kind of a somethingopath who enjoys killing, may well have seen a lot of Tricks used against him and generally recognize a lot of shit.
It's... okay. Yes, this is a scary as hell fight and we might die and our risks would be a lot worse. But it's, just... it's okay. This isn't something we need to be that upset about that it implodes the entire premise of the game.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
This conversation moves so fast that I didn't even see this, but... yeah, sure. I mean, I'm not going to "declare victory" if you take some time to peace out or catch a breath, except insofar as I was kind of hoping you'd do exactly that just because this feels like one of those times when someone has a very intense reaction to something that honestly wouldn't seem that bad after some time to touch grass.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Having said that,
I don't actually know what Punching Down does, or did. My guess is that it's basically Punching Upward, you get 50% more dice against people who are already half as strong as you. Punching Upward/Downward are both not actually mechanically amazing Twists unless you can do funky things with their extra dice (in which case they are very strong). Nowhere near the utility of something like Puncture or Dressed in Rags, they're basically just 'be more efficient with your Orthsirr', the Twist.
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In the hopeful (ha!) event we survive this battle and aren't thralled or something, should we credit our armor for it and also give it a name?
I don't actually know what Punching Down does, or did. My guess is that it's basically Punching Upward, you get 50% more dice against people who are already half as strong as you. Punching Upward/Downward are both not actually mechanically amazing Twists unless you can do funky things with their extra dice (in which case they are very strong). Nowhere near the utility of something like Puncture or Dressed in Rags, they're basically just 'be more efficient with your Orthsirr', the Twist.
Well.. respectively those would be.. Reality Ensues, Bullying the Weak, Hordeslayer (See: Gabriel vs Trollmen), not sure about the last one because Aizen's stuff is gigacheat and he's basically in the first category anyway.
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Incidentally, it probably doesn't matter, but we should have +1 (Rounds).
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In the hopeful (ha!) event we survive this battle and aren't thralled or something, should we credit our armor for it and also give it a name?
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I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
- Pronouns
- He/They
I have no idea what you're talking about, lmao. Like, I've seen a few playthroughs of bloodborne but I do not remember anything about it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
As I said before, those are narrative beats, but not actually surprising. The Achilles example is a valid Twist, but the Twist is being good at fighting whole groups, not 'fighting weaker people'. The others are literally just someone being more powerful...a Twist isn't needed for them at all. Or even helpful most of the time.
Everything about Norse cultivation is narrative and trope based. Twists serve a specific function within that framework. Having Trope-based abilities that are unsurprising is pretty much just everything that isn't a Twist. Like, we have a Muna (The Fight of Your Life) that gives bonus dice in fights based on having been in a tough one...that's not a Twist, because it's not an unexpected narrative beat, it's just how things go. But the mechanical difference between that and a Twist are very real (it's less powerful and doesn't cost Orthstirr, mostly). This guy could have something like that for bullying the weak and I don't think anyone would have an actual problem with it. Or a Trick focused on doing the same. Or he could just spend Orthstirr (which is also a representation of narrative power) on it like everyone else.
Basically, Twists are not the only ways to enforce a Trope and they're the wrong tool to enforce something expected like this. The whole rest of the system already enforces expected outcomes.
Technically, I think it's been one per turn, but it's been pretty close to exactly that for a bit here.
And this is what people meant by talking about Event Debt a while back. We just had so many we were verging on obligated to get involved in (this is the one we were least obligated to do, but we had suggested it, so there was some obligation there)...this is definitely the last one for at least several turns, at least in terms of us initiating them. Well, not counting sparring, which takes some time but has a lot less real risks.
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- Location
- Bretonnia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Depends on how much they know about how orthstirr actually works, probably. It'd be no problem for us to recover our orthstirr and then cast our sun spell, but it's not certain that they know this.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My impression is very much yes because the fight will be over at that point...like, if we (including the dwarves) drive this guy off we've won, if he beats us all, we've lost. Either way, the fight is done.
I also highly doubt getting enthralled is in the cards. This guy doesn't seem like he has thrall manacles on him and carrying us out of here seems like a real hassle...he also doesn't know the details, but he has to at least suspect we have real backing based on some of our capabilities. He doesn't want to kidnap the Jarl's daughter or someone like that and provoke a blood feud with someone he can't take (which is, indeed, exactly what would happen...Steinarr's reaction would be verging on the apocalyptic).
We could die here, since if we die here his trail is a lot harder for any angry people to follow and they'll likely be at least partially grief-stricken (or, if we're only bodily dead, we'll be back with them and they'll be less upset), but him enthralling us is actually just not worth it to him, I don't think. The risks are too high and the benefits too small. He might beat us and spare our lives because we amuse him (he seems the type), and he might kill us, but enthralling us is just a really bad idea and he seems smart enough to understand that.
If he had more people, he might try and ransom us, but that's not a one man operation and he probably can't involve the dwarves very readily. He might try it if he wins thoroughly enough, though it's a risky play from him, especially relying on the Lurkalings as messengers (which he'd need to).
Recovering Orthstirr may only take a bit but we're beat to hell and they don't know about the ball of sunshine and it wouldn't help vs. someone like Hookhands anyway. We're not gonna be in good fighting shape after this.
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I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
- Pronouns
- He/They
That's good to hear. I was getting a little bit fatigued with the sheer amount of combat, to be honest.
0~0~0
Anyways, I'll call voting in an hour