its not stronger though, it has more range and more precise control
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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)
- Thread starter I.F. Ister
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- Original Fantasy Action
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- norse mythology (mythology) original xianxia cultivation western cultivation ask sirihand did your mother tell you anything? discussion pleases yggdrasil farming gloating gets people killed granary management hubris is a coward's word you will die norsemen do not die when they are killed the qm has a bad memory the qm is bad at math viking courtroom drama (legal drama) vikings
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- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
Yeah, I'm up for asking Tryggr to see what he has to say on Gale's offensive potential at the very least, before we start disregarding Gale completely for combat completely.
As for Emberwind, from what I can tell, it sacrifices the AoE side of Ignition for longer range and more damage...? At least, Blackhand said it was precise, and precise sounds like the opposite of 'big explosion', but I imagine the increased damage would make up for the reduced AoE capabilities. Otherwise I don't really see a reason to use it over Kindle-Spinner, unless we want to hit someone that's in the air, as Kindle-Spinner can't do that very well.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
It was 1 damage for 3 Orthsirr. That's really inefficient. And terribly vulnerable to being hit by DR: All stuff.
I mean the moment you consider Odr and Hearthberry we're looking at a gargantuan extra +3 in damage potential. Unless we're going up against a fire giant or something straight up immune to fire we'd still rather spam Kindlespinners, even against a Sten-like enemy. And fire (should) just hurt more than wind, like how lightning is super good for damage.
I am saying we should not bother with using Gale in the form of inflicting direct damage, not not use it in combat.
It isn't, I'm arguing. It needs to do good damage at good speed to be worth using against enemies on our level. Like if it does 2 damage, it would have been nearly useless against Tryggr, and actually useless against the bandit captain.
And if it can do 3 damage I have to question why we can't use Ignition, which should be more damaging because it has less utility, to just have a 20 Orthsirr 4 damage trick or something.
(It also would have been nearly useless against the Bandit Captain and Foeman even then too.)
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- Location
- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
There's nothing that implies that it'd cost nearly as much orthstirr as Ember-Winged Cloak, though? In fact, that'd be almost double Ember-Winged Cloak's orthstirr cost when it was refined, which was 12. That's unrealistic.
And I believe I've made my point as to why we want it clear. If it was so bad at our level of combat, I don't see why Tryggr would use it. Like, it won't be as fast as Gust, but Gale was noted to be quick to use, so we can shoot it out as fast as Kindle-Spinner most likely, and I don't see wind based attacks being slow.
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Yeah, it's crappy. The 3 damage version would be much more expensive, but if it's 6 or 7 Orthstirr that's fine as a backup attack. Or if we can 'cheat' and use forced movement for part of the damage by tossing people up or into obstacles. Or get a flurry of 2 base damage attacks as a single trick. There are a number of options that would potentially be worth it.
If it's only one damage, sure. That's a huge assumption, though. That's like assuming all melee attacks deal only 2 damage because that's what Power Chop does. Or that all Ignition Tricks do exactly 3 because of Kindle Spinner. Neither are true. And we can burn Odr on Wind stuff, too...indeed, that only drops max damage by a single point (our Ignition is only 2, our Gale will be 1).
And that's a huge assumption based on very minimal data.
We're specifically talking about getting it for enemies who are resistant to or immune to fire. We'd certainly also be combining it with Target-Tracking Eyes, which helps all damage numbers out. Basically, vs. enemies who are not resistant to fire, we will generally stick with our current Tricks, if we got a new attack Trick it would be for times when fire was not viable for some reason.
Now, there's certainly still a minimum efficiency level that we need to have on such a Trick (3 base damage on a single attack or 2 each on multiple attacks seems about right...three 2 damage attacks become three 3 damage attacks with the shapeshifting, which is a whole lot better), but it doesn't need to be 'better than Kindle Spinner' or even 'as good as Kindle Spinner' it just needs to be viable.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Tryggr didn't have Hugareida other than Gale Hugareida from what we can tell. You work with the Hugareida you have, not the Hugareida you wished you had.
I simply do not think it is reasonable in the slightest to expect Gale to be as damaging as Ignition. That would make it basically a better Hugareida in every way, being better at battlefield utility, off battlefield utility, fast at attacking and also doing good damage. Plus it's explicitly not good at damage. How can a Hugareida not good at doing damage do good damage? That doesn't make sense.
You would expect a 3 damage version, if it is even possible, to cost at least 3x as much as a 1 damage version.
Hearthroot berry makes the gap 2, not 1. And that's if the not good at damage Hugareida is as good as damage as the good at damage Hugareida. And if we never get more improvements to Fire Hugareida understanding with our Born in Fire.
All data we have says that Gale is bad at dealing damage. Eric did 1 damage for 3 Orthsirr. Tryggr didn't do damage. Sten smacked us against the ground with a wind net for no damage. Blackhand says that it's not good at dealing damage. Meta indications are that it should not be good at dealing damage because it has other strengths and Hugareida are 'equal'.
It has to be at least as good as Kindle Spinner to be viable. Kindle Spinner has big advantages from Hearthberry, Born in Fire and already being trained.
Doing chump amounts of damage with a limited action economy is a fast way to lose a battle. The hypothetical, highly optimistic 3 damage Gale Hugareida would have faltered against Sten.
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- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
I mean, sure, but Tryggr - again - was a professional raider. He was in the upper bracket, too. 'Strong enough' wouldn't cut it in my opinion, especially with how cold/logical ol' Sparky seemed. Completely writing off Gale's capabilities - despite the evidence to the contrary we've seen - as 'making do' when we haven't even bothered to ask the one proficient Gale user we have is a waste.
Tryggr got perfect blocked by Halting Vortex. Sten didn't use Gale. Eric barely qualifies as a 'warrior' when compared to the people we deal with nowadays. The only data we have on Gale being bad at damage is Eric's 1 damage trick - again, Blackhand never said it was 'bad', merely that it wasn't its strong suit.
Like, I don't know why your so insistent on Gale being god awful for offensive purposes? Blackhand told us damage wasn't its strong point, and suddenly it's useless for combat, and everyone we've seen using it for such is using it wrong? Asking Tryggr when we got the time to do so wouldn't cost a thing.
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I mean, my assumption is that it does worse damage or has worse other effects than other equivalent options on a per orthstirrr basis. I would, for example, expect a 3 damage Gale Trick to compare with Kindle Spinner in the following ways:
-Not as fast.
-At least as expensive, possibly more so.
-Single target to Kindle Spinner's AoE.
So, basically, worse in every way except the actual damage number. Quite a bit worse since it's doing damage to only one target for the same high price tag. I would hope it would also knock people over or have some other utility effects, but that's a maybe.
But basically, damage number doesn't tell you everything about a Trick by any means and I'd expect a Gale Trick with the same number to have other down sides more than I'd expect those numbers to be impossible.
That's not how damage numbers seem to work based on other stuff we've seen. Upping damage by 1 never costs more than 1 or 2 Orthstirr onto the trick's cost...other costs are for other things (like added range).
Sure, if we're willing to burn twice the Odr and a consumable. I'd rather have a trick with slightly higher Orthstirr costs than expend those things. The training is a bit more arguable, but depends on what kind of Tricks are actually available. I'm not saying we take a Gale attack no matter what, but we literally have people around to ask about that, so we should see what our options are before dismissing them entirely.
Sten's trick wasn't intended to do damage. Tryggr's attack hit Halting Vortex (and thus did nothing no matter how much it did normally) so it could've done 8 damage for all we know. Eric's is the only one we actually know the damage of and it was clearly just not very impressive as Tricks go.
And the big disadvantage of being fire based. Which is only a disadvantage under some circumstances, sure, but we need something that isn't sometimes.
I mean, it would've been 4 damage with our shapeshifts and broken his armor in two hits if we could set that up. But in the end it would've been a bad call because Sten is actually a ranged specialist, so engaging him at range would've been bad even with much better damage than that, but that's not the situation we'd actually use it in.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
All solid evidence we see is that Gale is not good at dealing damage. All evidence to the contrary to this requires supposition and assumption. Surely Eric wouldn't waste training dice on researching an inefficient attack. Surely Tryggr wouldn't waste time working on something that isn't useful. Surely, surely, surely.
Blackhand is good at Hugareida and knows Gale well enough to say that it isn't good at dealing damage. He's the most experienced viking we know, on top of being specialised at Hugareida, and even has other Hugareida to compare against. Tryggr literally has one Hugareida that we know about, and again, you work with what you have, not what you wished you had.
Yes, and we happen literally ignoring or explaining away those datapoints not in favor of a damaging Gale trick because it doesn't fit our plans of making a good alternative to Kindle-Spinner.
Asking Tryggr would have the opportunity cost, of you know, other actions we could be doing.
And again, I'm not opposed to using it for combat, I am opposed to using it in a role of doing damage.
If that's the case, why don't we just make an 4-8+ damage Kindle Spinner equivalent trick instead, or at first? If we can just pump more Orthsirr into a new trick for damage, that would be wildly more productive.
It would be useful against a huge array of enemies, even fire-resistant ones, by virtue of sheer damage. We could instantkill groups of foemen.
You mean, people like Blackhand? Who, you know, already gave his opinion on the strengths and weaknesses of Gale?
Also see: Just make a better Ignition damage trick.
Plus a trick taking longer to cast is also a severe indictment against it in pitched battle. The action economy is god.
That's not a good reason to work on developing a mediocre damage hugareida.
You know what else we could do? Finish Recall, which we need for Seidr anyway, then get Fast Recall, then hit people at range with weapons that we then recall. If ammo is such an issue. This even comes with the benefit of hitting people with rune-enhanced stuff.
I mean currently the best use case of such a limited wind hugareida is like, Fire Giants, who would turbomurder us at our level of power. If it's not AOE we'd rather use kindle spinner even against fire resistant Foemen, and we'd rather melee other fire resistant people, on top of us, you know, liking melee compared to getting into a ranged hugareida battle.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Not really necessary, Inertia Cancel fills the maneuver gap.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Honestly if we get into a situation where we're up against an enemy where we should not melee because they're much better at us in melee, and also immune or highly resistant to fire, to the point where hitting them with inefficient wind hugareida at range is literally our best move, we should probably be leaving that battle posthaste before we get pasted.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Probably, yeah.
It'd be better to just make a throwing spear and use Fast-Recall to summon it back--at most, using Gale to enhance our throwing attacks.
Emberwind will cover our usual long ranged options. "Lasts Longer" and "More Precise" looks exactly like what we want for our artillery option. Against someone who's both impossible to melee and immune to fire, having a shitty 1-2 damage wind attack probably won't help much, especially since anyone that beefy probably also has enough Damage Resistance to straight up ignore weak attacks. And if we're fighting something immune to fire, impossible to melee, immune to weak attacks, and for whatever reason we can't retreat, we have a word for that. It's called a Dead End.
Which is to say "Our mistake was being in that fight in the first place", it's not something we'd be able to recover from just by having a weak non-Fire based Ranged Attack. If we absolutely, positively want to get a long ranged high damage option, well, we can always stand on top of a tree during a thunderstorm and try our luck. It's clearly not impossible to survive getting hit by lightning if a guy with 8-10 Endurance did so.
(realistically, there's probably more to it. Surviving initiating into the Lightning Hugareida is probably as much about Dumb Luck as it is just being that chonky.)
It'd be better to just make a throwing spear and use Fast-Recall to summon it back--at most, using Gale to enhance our throwing attacks.
Emberwind will cover our usual long ranged options. "Lasts Longer" and "More Precise" looks exactly like what we want for our artillery option. Against someone who's both impossible to melee and immune to fire, having a shitty 1-2 damage wind attack probably won't help much, especially since anyone that beefy probably also has enough Damage Resistance to straight up ignore weak attacks. And if we're fighting something immune to fire, impossible to melee, immune to weak attacks, and for whatever reason we can't retreat, we have a word for that. It's called a Dead End.
Which is to say "Our mistake was being in that fight in the first place", it's not something we'd be able to recover from just by having a weak non-Fire based Ranged Attack. If we absolutely, positively want to get a long ranged high damage option, well, we can always stand on top of a tree during a thunderstorm and try our luck. It's clearly not impossible to survive getting hit by lightning if a guy with 8-10 Endurance did so.
(realistically, there's probably more to it. Surviving initiating into the Lightning Hugareida is probably as much about Dumb Luck as it is just being that chonky.)
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- Location
- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
Frankly, at this point, I don't even think we're listening to what one another says. I don't agree with your points, but if we continue the discussion at the rate we're going, we'll be here forever. Can we just agree to disagree?
Although I do think using fast recall in combat would actually be pretty good. Not with Sagaseeker, but with one of our saxes. But that's not happening any time soon.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
We could always make a prayer to Thor before we make such an attempt.
"Please like, lightning bolt me with something I can survive, thanks."
Though that guy probably did have a lot of Hamingja, seeing as he'd not dead-dead.
Sure.
I think a standard Gale attack probably does two damage but several can be thrown out at once for more damage. Very good with bonus damage but weak to damage reduction. It's probably worse overall than our Kindle Spinners but it might be worthwhile to pick up a basic attack trick as a mix-up.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
We can do that with Kindle Spinners too, that's not unique to Gale. That's a matter of Folding.
i am not touching the Gale trick for damage topic.
BUT!
Not stronger or last longer.
I agree with the dead end assessment too.
So, being struct mid air or having a rope/metal wire trailing to the ground might help there.
And while hughreida attacks are good, i would like if we worked on more mundane tricks.
BUT!
Again, IF/Blackhand said Emberwind has a longer reach and more precision than ignition.
Not stronger or last longer.
Agreed. and spec materials and runes do make quite an arsenal possible. Also, Just like Sten used Ignition to propel his spikes, we too can use it to launch shots or enhanche our thrown weapons.
I agree with the dead end assessment too.
i mean, people die from lighning when it starts boiling/burning them because it can't escape. There are multiple videos on the net of someone being struct by lighning and walking off afterwards just fine as well.
So, being struct mid air or having a rope/metal wire trailing to the ground might help there.
Yeah. we can prop the site of where we do it with runes and other stuff that help healing, not to mention running mending palm and any other healing hugreida and seidr we learn.
And while hughreida attacks are good, i would like if we worked on more mundane tricks.
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Shard
One and Many
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- Malaysia
Incidentally, do we know why we have to understand what the runes mean in order to replicate them? Like, what stops us from copy-pasting runes we don't understand for the same effect? Aside from not wanting the runic setup to explode in our face of course, etc.
I'm not sure what to spend my reward dice on.. maybe a second and even third hint on the next stage Halla's nearing with her Saga Formation. I feel like I should save them for advise on Horra or just spend them on the Court Drama coming up, though. Next stage of Saga formation isn't urgent.
I'm not sure what to spend my reward dice on.. maybe a second and even third hint on the next stage Halla's nearing with her Saga Formation. I feel like I should save them for advise on Horra or just spend them on the Court Drama coming up, though. Next stage of Saga formation isn't urgent.
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Huh. Maybe it's intent based, or something? Wait, no, I don't think that's how runes work.
Actually, would runes written on paper work? Would you need a filling? I think Imperial said that they'd work on paper, but would they be inherently weaker than runes inscribed into something and filled? Or would the substance used to write the rune count as the filling?
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
They need to be carved to work. A more permanent surface equals to more power. Paper is very impermanent, so even if the charcoal/ink on paper 'counts', it would be so weak it wouldn't be able to do anything.
- Location
- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
Ah, yeah you're right, must've remembered wrong. Huh, so if runes on paper are garbage, we don't have to worry about any knowledge we try to pass on suddenly exploding. If we even want to pass on knowledge that way to begin with... I don't think it'll be happening any time soon, as the Enemy has most definitely guarded against simply writing down the secret to Odr. Or we'll just get jumped.
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It didn't seem like Tryggr was using Folding. That has a specific description and the attack in question lacked it. Now, maybe he was, but if he wasn't a flurry attack that doesn't leave us open would be useful. And we do know flurry attacks that aren't folding exist...look at Sten's swarm of blades attack. And that's the last I'll say on that for the moment.
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WhoTheHeckity
But no one ever asks HowTheHeckity
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