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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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[x] Accept her charge and doom Solrun to death

We were told that her assistance would be critical, this is her assistance.

And she's old. Going out on your own terms is something you don't get a chance to do very often in this society, and...

Well.

This sucks, but it's a step towards Making Things Right.

And she already said "You need this information"
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Is it? It certainly could be, but so could her abilities as a seer. We could even potentially get both if we get lucky or clever...
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We were told that Solrun would be one of our greatest allies in bringing this to light.

Thinking about it, she told us that there's something we need to know about this, but that it'd mean her end to do so. I'm not inclined to think she's trying to commit suicide. If this was something she could talk around, she'd have done it. This lady is a contemporary of Blackhand, she's not going to sell her life lightly.

Which means what she Knows is something worth her death, in her calculus.

EDIT:

I mean, there's going to be some dickering back and forth, so.

@Imperial Fister , with a bit of prodding, would Solrun agree that this is absolutely critical information that we need to know for this, to the point of "Trying to talk around it is going to significantly impact our ability to put an end to this sordid tale?"

I want to make sure that this is coming out of the head, rather than depression.
 
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Alectai said:
We were told that Solrun would be one of our greatest allies in bringing this to light.

Thinking about it, she told us that there's something we need to know about this, but that it'd mean her end to do so. I'm not inclined to think she's trying to commit suicide. If this was something she could talk around, she'd have done it. This lady is a contemporary of Blackhand, she's not going to sell her life lightly.

Which means what she Knows is something worth her death, in her calculus.
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She's literally stuttering with guilt and thinks all her friends hate her now. I'm not sure she's thinking with perfect icy clarity here. I do think the information is important, but assuming we can't get it any other way and need to have it immediately before even trying other routes seems a bit too impulsive to me.
 
@Imperial Fister it's been brought up that if this is her Fated Day Solrun will die even if we let her live, which makes letting her live a meaningless choice that accomplishes nothing. I think that, based on what Asva says in the update, that's wrong and that breaking the Oath advances her Fated Day so she'll live a while longer if we let her live.

Or since the Fates see the future is this a Schroedinger's cat thing where it's her Fated Day only if we accept her sacrifice?

Which is correct? If any? The core question is whether Solrun actually gets to live if we choose to let her live.
 
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"Suppose you forgot how to write. What words would I have to teach you in order for you to properly write a confession?"
Sufficiently twisty or nah?
Would rewrites be able to help with oath skirting?
 
Alectai said:
@Imperial Fister , with a bit of prodding, would Solrun agree that this is absolutely critical information that we need to know for this, to the point of "Trying to talk around it is going to significantly impact our ability to put an end to this sordid tale?"
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The only way you can get this information is from Solrun, Dorri, or Drysalt himself. It is already a complicated enough thing without having to speak in riddles or dance around topics, which would, effectively, render the entire thing too obtuse to really make much sense of.
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
@Imperial Fister it's been brought up that if this is her Fated Day Solrun will die even if we let her live, which makes letting her live a meaningless choice that accomplishes nothing. I think that, based on what Asva says in the update, that's wrong and that breaking the Oath advances her Fated Day so she'll live a while longer if we let her live.
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This is, effectively, going to be a 'eitr/odr overload/curse' situation. Her Fated Day wouldn't change, but her soul would be unreachable.
 
Imperial Fister said:
The only way you can get this information is from Solrun, Dorri, or Drysalt himself. It is already a complicated enough thing without having to speak in riddles or dance around topics, which would, effectively, render the entire thing too obtuse to really make much sense of.

This is, effectively, going to be a 'eitr/odr overload/curse' situation. Her Fated Day wouldn't change, but her soul would be unreachable.
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Okay, so Solrun does survive if we choose for her to live but no chance of getting the info. Oof. That does not make the choice an easy one in either direction...I still lean towards life, partially due to 'she can always give us this and die later', but the other option is definitely defensible both morally and strategically if we have no other way to acquire the info.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Okay, so Solrun does survive if we choose for her to live but no chance of getting the info. Oof. That does not make the choice an easy one in either direction...I still lean towards life, partially due to 'she can always give us this and die later', but the other option is definitely defensible both morally and strategically if we have no other way to acquire the info.
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I'll tell you this straight up, if you don't take this information now, you won't be getting it from Solrun. This is your chance to get it without having to beat it out of Dorri or learn it on the fly with Drysalt.

Unless, of course, one of you manages to land on it through discussion. I won't be commenting on whether folks are right or wrong, not for any amount of Reward Dice.
 
Okay, so I've thought about it for a bit and I think I've cracked it.

What we know is:
- Solrun's father, Runor, is responsible for Drysalt's initial rampage. Given his practice of Sedir, this strongly suggests some kind of summoning, although "rampage" suggests limited control at best.
- Hasvir Hadinghero kills Runor and ends Drysalt's first reign of terror through unknown means.
- Solrun is angry and wants revenge.
- Framarr Crownsword (Dorri's father), hires Blackhand to kill Hasvir for Solrun, in exchange for The Secret.
- He also compels her to swear a binding oath not to tell The Secret. (This is important; it implies he really does not want people knowing about the deal.)
- Solrun strongly believes that we will need The Secret if we are to have a chance of stopping Team Dorri-Drysalt. She seems to believe it's essential, worth her life.

So, what's The Secret?

The Secret is nothing more or less than the knowledge of how Drysalt is called or summoned, which necessarily also contains the essence (probably at great cost) of how to banish or repel Drysalt.

This fits with what we know happened. Drysalt was summoned by Runor, caused havoc, and was then cast out rather than killed. (Either because Runor's death ended the spirit-pact that allowed Drysalt to remain, or because Hasvir or maybe even Runor worked out how to banish him.) It also makes sense why Framarr would have wanted The Secret - either as a nuclear option to use against his rivals, or maybe for altruistic ends, to be able to banish Drysalt again in case he ever returned.

The fact that Drysalt has not gone on a massive rampage again (yet) is most likely because Framarr was patient, and spent a lot of time working how to more reliably summon/contract with Drysalt, and passed this knowledge onto Dorri. Or because Drysalt is more patient this time, and is lulling them into believing they have him controlled whilst sock-puppeting them. It's effectively the same thing. The fact that Dorri approached Sten even shows that he considered other, less extreme options, before turning to The Secret.

It fits with why Solrun things we absolutely need this information or we have no chance. If we don't know how to banish Drysalt, then (in Solrun's mind at least), we have no hope of defeating Dorri. Even Corpsemaker may not.

@Imperial Fister, asking if I am right on the broad strokes here, for a reward dice if need be.
 
Skippy said:
- Framarr Crownsword (Dorri's father), hires Blackhand to kill Hasvir for Solrun, in exchange for The Secret.
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Technically, what he did was help Solrun find Blackhand. He did not actually meet with Blackhand or hire him. Doesn't change the rest of the theory (which seems solid), but worth noting as Blackhand may well not even have ever met him.
 
[x] Accept her charge and doom Solrun to death

I'd like to get Aki and Kolla to join us anyways, I think that'd be fun. This gives us more reason to go find them ASAP.

It also is potentially going to be the difference between a victory with everyone alive, a victory where we barely keep the Hading together, and a defeat or death, with how this information is being talked up.


I like Solrun, it's nice to have a woman in the story who isn't a housewife or/and a bitch. But I also think letting her die atoning for a big mistake she had a part in is... a good close to the character's story.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Technically, what he did was help Solrun find Blackhand. He did not actually meet with Blackhand or hire him. Doesn't change the rest of the theory (which seems solid), but worth noting as Blackhand may well not even have ever met him.
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Funnily enough I originally had worded this as "puts Solrun in contact with" but then reworded because I assumed he must have also paid a retainer or something.

Anyway, we are also discussing on Discord...

...there is one person who would have been a first hand witness to most of the key action here, and might know some important things, even if he does not know The Secret itself. It's possible he saw nothing important, but he's the best possible lead other than being able to speak to Runor or Framarr themselves.

Hasvir Hadinghero.

Conveniently, we're going to see the imprint of his final battle this turn. I wonder if we can speak to his shade?
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Framarr is unlikely to be productive...he was clearly in on whatever this is.
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That's true, but we might be able to compel him to speak with the spiritual equivalent of a car battery and some jumper cables. Runor is probably our best bet though - he has a clear motive to not want Solrun to forswear herself and die (I'd hope) if nothing else.

Perhaps Careful-Stepper might have the spiritual clout to get us face time with a particular soul in Hel, if we called in that I.O.U.? Otherwise it would be basically like when we went to rescue Aki, except with the danger turned up to 11.
 
IF straight up told us "The only three sources of the Secret are Solrun, Dorri, and Drysalt"

He didn't say "The only living people", he said "The only way you're getting this is through one of these three sources, and if you refuse Solrun here, that door is closed", whatever the reason. And that it's apparently "Obtuse enough that there's no talking around it". Which makes it very unlikely that we'll be able to deduce it. (Case in point, the Big Theory Skippy just posted? Okay, sure, maybe that's the case. How do we actually take advantage of that that?)

And she seems to think us knowing it is critical to ending this. Important enough to ante her life up.
 
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Alectai said:
IF straight up told us "The only three people who know The Secret are Solrun, Dorri, and Drysalt, and good luck beating it out of the latter"
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Yes, but I am willing to bet actual money that Runor and Framarr must have known it too, and IF simply did not consider them in the list of viable options, given they're dead. Solrun has textually stated to us that she told it to Framarr initially, and Runor must have known to start this mess in the first place.
 
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