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This has been (mostly jokingly) suggested as a last resort tactic if we're hideously out-gunned and about to die a few times. It might even work. But yes, you're correct, it's a terrible idea even so.
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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)
- Thread starter I.F. Ister
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- Original Fantasy Action
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- norse mythology (mythology) original xianxia cultivation western cultivation ask sirihand did your mother tell you anything? discussion pleases yggdrasil farming gloating gets people killed granary management hubris is a coward's word you will die norsemen do not die when they are killed the qm has a bad memory the qm is bad at math viking courtroom drama (legal drama) vikings open voting
This has been (mostly jokingly) suggested as a last resort tactic if we're hideously out-gunned and about to die a few times. It might even work. But yes, you're correct, it's a terrible idea even so.
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I feel like it would be an act of Nid even if it's a funny idea. The Foemen weren't exactly stupid either, they know who they are after. So yeah, if about to die to take an enemy down? Maybe. But I don't think it's something we can use and get away from.
AeonIlluminate
The power of friendship and aggressive landscaping
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[X] A dragon spreads its wings for a second time in Gnitaheath
They all probably have different ways to fuck Charred Soul up, so screw it, dragon. Also I find the idea of getting Stoker State 2: Electric Boogaloo funny.
They all probably have different ways to fuck Charred Soul up, so screw it, dragon. Also I find the idea of getting Stoker State 2: Electric Boogaloo funny.
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[X] A Witch-King seeks his sword once more in Valland
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Even then any enemies to survive get knowledge of Odr, which is bad. It's probably just not a good idea, as amusing as it is.
Well, the equivalent for Eitr is... not getting hit and killing the dragon first. Which is difficult, to be sure, but presumably so is beating a centuries-old necromancer wizard in spiritual combat.
To be clear, I'm not trying to doomsay here, and respect your vote completely, just suggesting that this may not be as open-and-shut as we're assuming.
That's a good idea.
Honestly, given that this is a sort of karmic debt for Abjorn's awakening, my assumption was that this essentially is a Disclosure? To be clear, I don't think this means that we can expect a bunch of Foemen and giants coming. Rather, I think that what we're voting on now probably was the price for our Disclosure.
I've been saying for ages now that it is probably a very narrow view to assume the Enemy's only tools are Foemen or giants, or that the result of every Disclosure is "Foemen try to flashmob you". In the broadest sense, I think that the price for Disclosure is "the Enemy gets a free turn to move one of their pieces on the gameboard", which probably includes stuff like this.
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We're severely advantaged in spiritual combat on our next character since we basically make it a three on one fight by existing, and one of those people is Blackhand. Like, I'd give much better odds on that than on our ability to not get killed in conventional combat with a dragon.
IF said on Discord that this didn't count as Disclosure per se. This is definitely a karma thing, but of a more ambiguous variety than a straight replacement for Disclosure. It's possible that, to Abjorn alone, we actually can disclose now, the price having been already paid, but that's still very different from Disclosure per se which is both more structured and can allow disclosing to whole groups. Or things may be weirder than that, I'm not sure.
I suspect this is also not a one for one exchange per se. Like, Abjorn alone is not worth this to anyone but Halla, and much as Halla is our protagonist, she's not the universe's so it feels like there's a little more going on here. We'll see how much more.
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This is just me being pedantic here, but doesn't Disclosure scale off the power of the one doing it, rather than the one being told? Admittedly I don't think Halla is as powerful as any of these monsters either, but presumably there's a scaling factor in play for retaliation.
But if IF has already confirmed that it isn't, then that settles it. It definitely still is within the broader category of "karmic debt being paid for knowledge of Odr cultivation spreading", but fair enough.
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There are two things about that. The first is that we didn't Disclose anything. We have a good idea of what that entails and we didn't come close. The second is that Halla is not actually wildly more badass than Abjorn (she probably is more badass at this point but not orders of magnitude or anything), so these threats aren't scaled to her either. Like, these are 'beyond Steelfather tier' threats...we are not there as of yet. Not even close.
Oh, I think it is, at least partially, but the weight of it seems unbalanced for just this one incident.
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Well, we know from previous questioning that if Halla had Disclosed to the Gang, then even with Halla, Abjorn, our friends and Steinarr right there and a prepared defensive position, it would have been chancy. That was when Halla was significantly weaker than she is now. So I don't think the scale of repercussions was ever fair. There's a significant multiplier in play.
RE: Halla versus Abjorn, I feel she's significantly stronger than him - we could kill him at least two different ways without him really being able to stop us - but I also don't want to get into this argument.
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That was using existing forces in play. With what we know now that would've triggered Horra's entire Draugr Army plus significant additional foes (which, with only Steinarr and Sten there, of the notably hardcore, would indeed likely have been game over). It wouldn't have created (or, I suppose, resurrected, to be more accurate) foes from whole cloth like this. That would've also been outright Disclosure to a group, not a sort of backwards halfway version to one person. The balance points are very different.
Well, assuming he showed all his cards in our spar and hasn't picked up any new ones since. Those both seem like bad assumptions. I do think Halla is a fair bit more badass than him at this point, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's to the point where he can use Punching Up on her, so it's not by as much as all that. Certainly not enough of a difference to be relevant as compared to threats that are the equivalent of multiple Steelfathers.
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DangerKitty
shoddy writter
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- lala land
[X] A dragon spreads its wings for a second time in Gnitaheath
DRAGON COOL
DRAGON COOL
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- Bretonnia
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[X] A dragon spreads its wings for a second time in Gnitaheath
How can I say no to a dragon?
How can I say no to a dragon?
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I suspect that ability is tied to his Sword.
I was actually referring to when we were thinking about doing a Disclosure after we'd dealt with Horra, and thinking about the Dwarves building us special defences for it. As I recall that the answer then was that it would have been pretty close even if we'd built extensive defences. My broader point is... we know less than we think we do here, and should avoid making assumptions. The idea that a regular Disclosure is limited to only Foemen or Draugr is almost certainly wrong.
Shard
One and Many
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Honestly I'm pretty sure that this is more like, the meta-narrative price for initiating Abjorn. Like the OOC price, because the one thing all these threats have in common is that they are not immediately our problem. Because IC it's totally not an equivalent price at all.
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Disclosure has a specific list of enemies, stated by IF in exchange for 9 Reward Dice. I highly doubt that's incorrect given the price. The actual list is a bunch of Foemen (based on Infusions), a Pursuer, and all draugr, trolls, and giants within a certain radius (based on Realm). Plus other monsters if the local spirits dislike you.
So no, it's not just Draugr and I never said it was. I was saying that because of Horra's Draugr Army, it would have been more lethal than usual if done when we originally considered it, since it attracts all nearby Draugr among other things. After Horra's death...we have no idea how many trolls or giants there are nearby, which makes it a bit dicey to say the least even sans Foemen. Especially with Drysalt around and likely recruiting a bunch of Trolls (Drysalt himself would likely be immune, but just the number of trolls involved is probably wild). We need to worry a lot less about trolls now than we did then, but have other concerns.
Basically, I see no need for Disclosure to have extra secret conditions that make the huge Reward Die expenditure made to know what it results in meaningless to be as dangerous as it has been presented.
Certainly that's a large part of what's going on OOC, but that doesn't mean there's not more to it IC, with it being the in-universe price for both Abjorn being brought in and a lot of other stuff going on.
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Fair enough, I was not aware that we'd gotten that information
However, I think there's been a miscommunication here - what I was saying initially is that the fact that the smackdown from Halla disclosing was apparently enough to have a serious shot at killing her, Steinarr, Sten, and various friends all put together means there can't be any strict "equal exchange" in the size of retaliation. (The unstated implication being that a retaliation which was merely equivalent to Halla's strength would not have fair odds of killing Steinarr, let alone the rest.) There has to be some kind of scaling factor involved, and it must be considerable.
If that scaling factor is the radius at which giants and trolls can be drawn in to attack, then it seems like... this sort of confirms that?
That being said, I definitely was completely wrong when I said that we did not have specific information about what Disclosure can and can't summon up, though. That's actually highly detailed! Also, what are Pursuers? It vaguely rings a bell but I'm blanking a bit.
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Sure. My point is that none of that 'scaling by radius' stuff is new additions to the Enemy's arsenal. Those are assets already in place that he can just point your way when you Disclose. Him actually getting a new asset, especially one well above most single Steelfathers in power, is just a whole different ballgame and not remotely comparable.
I actually linked to the 'what happens on Disclosure' list in the Odr Info Post. It's not everything, but there is ready access to that specific thing there.
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Fair enough, but this was not the assertion I was making when talking about "multiplier" or "scaling factor". I was simply making the observation that there has never been an 1:1 equivalence in the power of the one doing a Disclosure versus the retribution. Given we have an exact list of what the Enemy can respond to a Disclosure with, then yes, it seems obviously true that resurrecting dead monsters isn't on that list. I did say before that we shouldn't assume too much about Disclosure, but that was before you mentioned that we'd got an a very detailed answer about it.
...Although more broadly, I think the fact that we can get karmic retribution like this which is not technically a capital-D Disclosure does kind of speak to the broader point that we should not assume too much, and there are mechanisms for the Enemy to get stronger tools. This must be connected to our actions here somehow, but beyond that, I'm not sure.
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Totally fair. I wasn't aware you didn't know, so this is probably partially on me for assuming.
I don't think that, at least in-universe, that's what's going on. Like, that doesn't actually make sense, the scales are completely out of synch in a way that just doesn't work or follow any actual logic. I agree that this is largely the motivation OOC, but that doesn't mean there's an IC causal link between the two, or at least not one where us vaguely inviting Abjorn to engage in Odr cultivation is the actual source of these problems. The final nail out of hundreds that allowed it, perhaps, but not the primary thing involved.
Like, what causes things OOC and what causes them IC are not always the same and I very much think that this is an example of such a disconnect and using it to infer anything about the Enemy and its capabilities is thus deeply wrong and misleading.
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