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Fair enough, I thought you were saying that nobody would notice it's existence.

Ah, yeah I see what you mean, fair point.

So, to be clear, my original plan before even considering this was still almost entirely FBS...Perfected FBS is really good in this specific situation, I think. The only things I really cut were using EWC to skim along the ground and opening with a FFC (which is only +2 damage or so over FBS at this point, and only to armor, which is a lower priority given this guy only has a gambeson...in practice, it's likely spending 6 Orthstirr for +1 damage which is...not great when examined). I'm not foregoing much for paranoia's sake here, the big reason for FBS is sheer orthficiency, hence the plan name. I just realized the benefits of keeping secrets and made very minor changes to do so.

Fair enough, I was just speaking in general really.

This guy is realistically probably not strong enough to be worth using it for, however there is the large group of their elites back at the boats that we will get to fight at some point, it will probably be more interesting to reveal it there, as it will also be actually worth it as they have a hope in hell of doing more than like 4 damage, which our base DR just eats

Well, I agree that it would be a waste to spend a full Slowing Slog on him, but an extra 1 DR helps provide a cushion (he may have trick attacks to), it's mostly for the free Stoked Dice. It will be more dramatic to unveil the full on "you can't hurt me" version when we fight their elites though, I agree.

Honestly I think at least a 9-Orthstirr Slowing Slog should be part of our toolkit in the same way that Slipstream is; it provides a handy benefit and the equivalent of half a Fight of Your Life charge per turn. If there was a Gale or Ignition trick which did that, we would not hesitate to use it every single turn.
 
Well, I agree that it would be a waste to spend a full Slowing Slog on him, but an extra 1 DR helps provide a cushion (he may have trick attacks to), it's mostly for the free Stoked Dice. It will be more dramatic to unveil the full on "you can't hurt me" version when we fight their elites though, I agree.

Honestly I think at least a 9-Orthstirr Slowing Slog should be part of our toolkit in the same way that Slipstream is; it provides a handy benefit and the equivalent of half a Fight of Your Life charge per turn. If there was a Gale or Ignition trick which did that, we would not hesitate to use it every single turn.

So, the DR probably doesn't matter this turn. Thinking about it, I think I was wrong that combining it with Reinforce Shield is always good. Because Reinforce Shield, if hit with a Trick, cancels that trick, goes away, and ends the turn. So...that attack never runs into our DR and neither do any others. Meaning the DR can only matter in some very niche circumstances.

And if we have to pick one, a 2-4 Orthstirr 'no that attack does nothing' is better than a 9 Orthstirr +1 DR, even with the +3 dice (which are okay, but not spectacular or worth 9 Orthstirr).
 
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So, the DR probably doesn't matter this turn. Thinking about it, I think I was wrong that combining it with Reinforce Shield is always good. Because Reinforce Shield, if hit with a Trick, cancels that trick, goes away, and ends the turn. So...that attack never runs into our DR and neither do any others. Meaning the DR can only matter in some very niche circumstances.

And if we have to pick one, a 2-4 Orthstirr 'no that attack does nothing' is better than a 9 Orthstirr +1 DR, even with the +3 dice (which are okay, but not spectacular or worth 9 Orthstirr).

Saying that it "never runs into our DR" is equivalent to saying that Reinforce Shield or Halting Vortex mean we never actually get hit, which from experience is... demonstrably not true, because we're fallible and sometimes get hit in ways we did not expect. There's obviously a value to having DR as well as ablative health or perfect defences.

It feels to me that you've gotten stuck on arguing this point and are putting an unreasonably high value on nine orthstirr in order to arrive at the conclusion that it's not worth it. Compared to what we have spent nine orthstirr on in the past and doubtless will do in future, it is worth it for the Stoked Die alone given the zero opportunity cost of using it, before we get to the DR. It effectively means with that and Fanned Flames that we have the equivalent of a Fight of Your Life ready to go always, at all times.
 
Saying that it "never runs into our DR" is equivalent to saying that Reinforce Shield or Halting Vortex mean we never actually get hit, which from experience is... demonstrably not true, because we're fallible and sometimes get hit in ways we did not expect. There's obviously a value to having DR as well as ablative health or perfect defences.

It's the automatic turn end for Reinforce Shield breaking that does it. We can easily wind up getting hit but only in very niche circumstances does it happen after Reinforce Shield is broken but before a turn end and thus the opportunity to use Slowing Slog before more attacks anyway.

So there are, realistically, three likely possibilities:

1. We don't get hit. Slowing Slog is wasted.
2. We get hit but Reinforce Shield stops it entirely and still has juice. Slowing Slog is again wasted.
3. We get hit, Reinforce Shield stops it and breaks...this ends the turn, meaning it's a new turn and we can activate Slowing Slog then.

The fourth possibility of Reinforce Shield getting broken and it not being a turn end is probably possible, though it's literally never happened yet, but it seems unlikely enough I don't think we should bet on it happening.

Now, once Reinforce Shield is broken, it takes actions to set up again, while Slowing Slog does not and Slowing Slog becomes much more arguable, even optimal, but not with Reinforce Shield still going at the beginning of combat.

It feels to me that you've gotten stuck on arguing this point and are putting an unreasonably high value on nine orthstirr in order to arrive at the conclusion that it's not worth it. Compared to what we have spent nine orthstirr on in the past and doubtless will do in future, it is worth it for the Stoked Die alone given the zero opportunity cost of using it, before we get to the DR. It effectively means with that and Fanned Flames that we have the equivalent of a Fight of Your Life ready to go always, at all times.

We were very specifically warned that efficiency matters more now than it ever has before. I don't think taking that to heart is unreasonable.

Also, once again, Fanned Flames doesn't add to Stoker State dice. And Stoked Pool is all or nothing on Contested Movement or most other uses...only on Stoker State Tricks is it what you imply...and there's a reason we save FoYL for Contested Movement, it's so much better there. And +3 dice when used on non-contested movement can be duplicated with 3 Orthstirr at most...spending 9 on it is kinda dubious. It can also boost damage and other effects on some Tricks, but 6 extra Orthstirr for +1 damage on a single attack is a pretty mediocre return on investment.
 
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It's the automatic turn end for Reinforce Shield breaking that does it. We can easily wind up getting hit but only in very niche circumstances does it happen after Reinforce Shield is broken but before a turn end and thus the opportunity to use Slowing Slog before more attacks anyway.

So there are, realistically, three likely possibilities:

1. We don't get hit. Slowing Slog is wasted.
2. We get hit but Reinforce Shield stops it entirely and still has juice. Slowing Slog is again wasted.
3. We get hit, Reinforce Shield stops it and breaks...this ends the turn, meaning it's a new turn and we can activate Slowing Slog then.

The fourth possibility of Reinforce Shield getting broken and it not being a turn end is probably possible, though it's literally never happened yet, but it seems unlikely enough I don't think we should bet on it happening.

Now, once Reinforce Shield is broken, it takes actions to set up again, while Slowing Slog does not and Slowing Slog becomes much more arguable, even optimal, but not with Reinforce Shield still going at the beginning of combat.

This argument proves too much, I think? There have definitely been circumstances where we've lost Reinforce Shield charges and taken damage. Getting a turn break also tends to be correlated with other things we'd rather avoid, means we can't land attacks, and generally being on the back foot in a fight. None of the players are ever cheering or feeling happy after we lose several layers of Reinforce Shield and get interrupted mid-turn because we just got punched in the face.

We were very specifically warned that efficiency matters more now than it ever has before. I don't think taking that to heart is unreasonable.

Also, once again, Fanned Flames doesn't add to Stoker State dice. And Stoked Pool is all or nothing on Contested Movement or most other uses...only on Stoker State Tricks is it what you imply...and there's a reason we save FoYL for Contested Movement, it's so much better there. And +3 dice when used on non-contested movement can be duplicated with 3 Orthstirr at most...spending 9 on it is kinda dubious. It can also boost damage and other effects on some Tricks, but 6 extra Orthstirr for +1 damage on a single attack is a pretty mediocre return on investment.

Fight of Your Life is great, but also finite. The ability to regenerate dice for Contested Movement with stuff like Slowing Slog, Ember-Winged Cloak, and other Tricks which don't take up action economy is fantastic, because it essentially means we will always have the equivalent of a FoYL usage. If there's more in the Stoked Pool to use for other things or end up producing overkill on the Hamr check, then great, but the main thing is ensuring a baseline.

Good reminder on Fanned Flames, I'm sure I'm going to forget that again lmao.
 
This argument proves too much, I think? There have definitely been circumstances where we've lost Reinforce Shield charges and taken damage.

Only from Basic Attacks. It cancels Tricks entirely.

Getting a turn break also tends to be correlated with other things we'd rather avoid, means we can't land attacks, and generally being on the back foot in a fight. None of the players are ever cheering or feeling happy after we lose several layers of Reinforce Shield and get interrupted mid-turn because we just got punched in the face.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that the specific interaction makes Slowing Slog not super useful on a turn where we have full Reinforce Shield going. There are lots of bad parts of that interaction, certainly, but they happen whether we've spent on Slowing Slog or not.

Also, important note: Right now, your plan has us going into battle with way lower Tactics and other stuff than it should, you should copy this line from mine (or at least the Hugr and Tactics parts)...we only max out Combat Pool automatically, not Tactics. I missed doing this in a previous fight and it sucked.

-[ ] Invest 3 Orthstirr in Hugr, 1 in Composure, 4 in Tactics, 3 in Scouting (-11 Orthstirr)
 
Also, important note: Right now, your plan has us going into battle with way lower Tactics and other stuff than it should, you should copy this line from mine (or at least the Hugr and Tactics parts)...we only max out Combat Pool automatically, not Tactics. I missed doing this in a previous fight and it sucked.

-[ ] Invest 3 Orthstirr in Hugr, 1 in Composure, 4 in Tactics, 3 in Scouting (-11 Orthstirr)

Will do!
 
I don't see a listed weakness for Feet of Clay or any indication of Effort-Gauge working...that's supposed to give us a rough dice range. I wouldn't expect anything exact at this level...but 'he's trying to kill you' is information we'd have even without Effort Gauge, and something involving the order of magnitude of dice to expect was why we bought the Trick.

Like, are we facing 20d6 attacks here, or 80d6 attacks? Something to indicate which would be what we got the Trick for.
Ope, forgot. My apologies

You'll be looking at around 25-ish dice for his moves. He is overly liberal with his shield sacrificing.
IF, will we get a recharge on our Orth between this fight and the second one against the 2 small groups? Mainly for budget concerns.
You'll get a recharge of your Aspects, but that's about it
@Imperial Fister, can we use Flashfire Cleave here?
You can, but keep in mind that you'll be leaving the formation to do so.
That Level of Slowing Slog is enough to deflect any attack made by mortal man
Not entirely correct. A cannon shot by a mortal would do way more damage then a mere 1.
Can we feel our if we have any Hugareida in common via the Shroud Detection Effect?
Sword, Ignition, and Campfire
 
Ope, forgot. My apologies

You'll be looking at around 25-ish dice for his moves. He is overly liberal with his shield sacrificing.

Okay, cool, that makes sense, adapting plan accordingly. Skippy, you probably should as well...one big attack to start off is bad, because he'll just shield sacrifice his way through it. Two big attacks with, like, 35 dice each, however, is more viable because he's only throwing 25-ish.

Sword, Ignition, and Campfire

Do we have a feel for his level of them, roughly?
 
Hmm. If he's got good Sword, he definitely has Sword Guard, so we'll want something to grind through those. We also definitely don't want to use Flashfire Cleave because that's a good way to get surrounded.

Furthermore, we can probably grind through his defenses quickly making use of Atgeir Counter-Stab and Sword Strikes to get more attacks in, and then shred him to bits when he runs out of defenses with some cherry taps. Maybe offer this fight to Sagaseeker to help him get some Orth? It looks like he'll have some decent passive defenses but once we grind down his defenses, he'll die fast.

EDIT: Honestly, this'd be a good fight to have Sagaseeker support us with Atgeir Tricks and fight with our new sword I think. We can use our free hand for magic or our shield-summon in a pinch.
 
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Hmm. If he's got good Sword, he definitely has Sword Guard, so we'll want something to grind through those. We also definitely don't want to use Flashfire Cleave because that's a good way to get surrounded.

Agreed. The Sword Guard is what Devouring Blaze is for, of course, in both plans.

Furthermore, we can probably grind through his defenses quickly making use of Atgeir Counter-Stab and Sword Strikes to get more attacks in, and then shred him to bits when he runs out of defenses with some cherry taps. Maybe offer this fight to Sagaseeker to help him get some Orth? It looks like he'll have some decent passive defenses but once we grind down his defenses, he'll die fast.

His defenses are estimated in the 25d range...we can just straight-up overpower that. Without too much in the way of costs beyond Puncture, at that. Well, it costs dice, but we have those...

Two FBS hits probably takes him out...one for the shield and one for him. Two for him at the most for three hits total.

EDIT: Honestly, this'd be a good fight to have Sagaseeker support us with Atgeir Tricks and fight with our new sword I think. We can use our free hand for magic or our shield-summon in a pinch.

I don't think engaging a sword specialist with a weapon he specializes in and we don't is a super great idea. I think we stick with Sagaseeker for this.

My plan has been edited to do three 'big hits' (still pretty cheap, and with less dice than before) rather than one, and have smaller 'small hits' since 12d6 isn't gonna be relevant over a smaller number like 6d6.
 
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A quote by Fister on the Discord

Truthfully, from an objective standpoint, no matter what he did, Blackhand couldn't have won that fight with his body in that state. He will deny it as long as he exists, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't win.

Maybe, if he had one of Idunn's apples, things would have played out differently. Maybe, if he hadn't… well, we'll get to that later.
 
[X] Plan: Grind him Down
-[X] Sagaseeker gets the Orthstirr from this fight, he's going to need it
-[X] Invest 3 Orthstirr in Hugr, 1 in Composure, 4 in Tactics, 3 in Scouting (-11 Orthstirr)
-[X] Put 4 Orthstirr into 8 layers of Reinforce Shield before the combat begins(-4 Orthstirr) and add an instance of Explosive Reactive Armor (-9 Orthstirr)
-[X] Activate Stoker State 3 (-9 Orthstirr), Slipstream (-8 Orthstirr), and Fanned Flames (-7 Orthstirr).
-[X] 79 Dice Offense
-[X] 50 Dice Defense
-[X] Maintain a 30d6+16 SHV (-27 Orthstirr) as safety measure, against anything loaded with Puncture or a Guard Break, use up to 5 Fortified, 6x Reinforced Stoking Guards (22d6 + 16 (10 Base, 3 Fortify, 6 Reinforce, 3 Stoked Dice) each, for -10 Orthstirr each)
-[X] Grind him down using a combination of up to 8, 3x Sharpened, Elementally Enhanced Firebomb Strikes (13d6 + 6) for a total of 4 Orthstirr each. Sagaseeker should be animated using 2x Sharpened, Power-Chopped Atgeir Counter-Stabs using his own Orthstirr up to 4 times (6d6 + 6, 12 Orthstirr each, paid from Sagaseeker's Pool) to further grind him down. If he prepares a Guard, wipe it out using a Devouring Blaze (20 + 10 Stoked Dice, aimed to burn his Guards out and splash into the backline, avoiding our allies while maximizing the killrange. 8 Orthstirr). When his defenses are exhausted or a suitable opening arrives, finish him off with a Punctured Spark-Bomb (-24 Orthstirr, 12d6 + 6), and if that isn't enough to drop him, follow it up with a Sharpened Firebomb Strike (11d6+6) for 1 Orthstirr. Against any attack that looks like it might bypass our defenses and actually hurt us, use a Shield Sacrifice (-1 Shield)
-[X] Tactics – Overrun his defenses with a flurry of cheap attacks--all of which require him to put his back into defending him, but quickly wearing down his focus through chaining attacks from Halla using Burning Caress and Sagaseeker stabbing him whenever he tries to swing back through using it as our focus for the Atgeir Tricks. Maintain our SHV as a guard, and punish him if he brings one up himself with a magic flamethrower, and use our overwhelming speed to set up Fortified defenses if he tries to use Puncture to get past it (Or otherwise uses a Guard Break). Keep our off-hand free to use Hugareida or withdraw Shields with if we need them.

Basically, we're taking advantage of Halla's insane bag of tricks and ridiculous Speed stat to grind through his prepared defenses while removing his ability to use a Persistent. He can't use cheap Perfects here because he has no ground to give, and if he's throwing 25ish dice into his moves, then he's either burning Orthstirr like water or he's stacking up a relatively small number of attacks.

Mass Combat is about endurance, not about novaing in the first round. Each of our attacks only costs Halla 4 Orthstirr, and if *any* of them hit, he's going to be either dead or crippled. We're attacking him 12 times in a very short period of time.
 
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-[X] Maintain a 30d6+16 SHV (-5 Orthstirr) as safety measure, against anything loaded with Puncture or a Guard Break, use up to 10 8xFortified Basic Defenses (22d6 + 16 each, for -8 Orthstirr each)

This isn't how Fortify works. Fortify is +3d, but only once per defense, though you can add Reinforce on top. That's less dice or higher expenses, though.

finish him off with a Punctured Spark-Bomb (-21 Orthstirr, 1d6 + 6),

Minor issue, this should be -24 Orthstirr and 2d6+6 (not that the dice matter). I think you're leaving off the +1d6 for Ignition and Atgeir Tricks in general, though I'd have to math it out to know for sure.
 
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[X] Plan Orthficiency And Keeping Tricks In Reserve

You know, its weird how important terrain and formations seem to be for a battle between Cultivators. I mean, this people should be able to simply jump over the river or a shieldwall without breaking a sweat. Stuff like wet swampy ground should be just a minor inconvinience for somebody so superhuman.

I am starting to find kind of inconsistent how superhuman Cultivators actualy are in this setting.

Sometimes they casualy throw giant boulders araound and jump over a dozen ships, others they are stopped by a river or a wall.
 
I am starting to find kind of inconsistent how superhuman Cultivators actualy are in this setting.

Sometimes they casualy throw giant boulders araound and jump over a dozen ships, others they are stopped by a river or a wall.

It's narrative. Things intended as barriers are harder to get past. That was noted explicitly with the walls of castles. A ruined castle or one with a breached wall you can jump right over, but if it's intact getting past the walls is magically hard. Because they are narratively intended to stop invaders.

Maintain a 30d6+16 SHV (-5 Orthstirr) as safety measure,

Just noticed this. SHV is a Guard, so all its dice need to come from Orthstirr. It gets 5 free dice from being a Standstill Trick and having +5d in standstill right now, though.
 
Adjusted my plan a bit for numbers. Managed to make the defenses work by making them Stoking Guards instead of Basic Defenses, letting me pour more of the Defense Dice into them.
 
Adjusted my plan a bit for numbers. Managed to make the defenses work by making them Stoking Guards instead of Basic Defenses, letting me pour more of the Defense Dice into them.

The defenses seem...weird to me. I have mine at around that die value because they're only getting used against Basic Attacks...against 25d attacks they might as well not exist, generally. If you halved the number and added the dice they'd be a lot better.

-[X] Maintain a 30d6+16 SHV (-25 Orthstirr) as safety measure,

This should be 28d6 at that cost...2 Orthstirr for the basic Trick gives +5d, so the dice are always +3d over the Orthstirr cost.
 
Adjusted numbers. 5 defenses, but each is doing 22d6 + 16, which is still better than 25 on average

He probably won't get that many attacks even if he drops Puncture on each one, because the Round will probably break or he'll be dead by then. At roughly 25 die defenses, I don't see him even lasting the entire attack chain to draw him out, especially since if we get a good roll and he rolls bad, he just explodes in the attack chain because we're hitting for something like 9 damage with each of them, and he's only in a gambeson.

More importantly, it just looks really cool, okay? To really flex our SPEEDHAX for once.
 
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Still "About as strong as we are?" What the hell are we doing with our life T_T
also important to note is that the guy is also near the front and the middle of the enemy force- so likely above their average warrior as well. we were put at the spearhead for being relatively powerful- so does he, most likely.

we can try cleave the path through or just fly and land between weaker folk, but that does seem dangerous.

hey Halla, can you see a spotlight effect of an Odr cultivator among the enemy?

if we do want to be exceptional in strength we should try and adventure more. a lot of our strength comes from the big battle and journeys- training dice and Odr on ships, as well as Muna. I really think we should do that- travelling might be the main reason Lidrun is at least somewhat more advanced then we are. I really would like to equalize that. and it works well with realm expansion- you can't expand your soul beyond your home if you rarely get away from your home. I think next summer we really should go on some adventure, or maybe travel to Vestfold
 
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