that is true in a way. on the other hand, the personality is not yet formed. its an interesting question, obviously, but IMO its not too different then a parent trying to influence a baby personality. we don't magically influence a fully formed being, but guide the creation of a new one into a helpful and not harmful form. which IMO is quite different.

Blackhand what do you think of influencing the personality of a realized item during realization? do you think it is morally wrong?

The way I see it, it's no different than... I don't know, genetically engineering a human/whatever life form to grow up and be positively disposed to you. In both instances you're doing the tampering when they aren't sapient/aware, but in the end you're altering their mind for your benefit - even if in Halla's case, she wouldn't mistreat it or anything. It's still pretty wack.
 
The way I see it, it's no different than... I don't know, genetically engineering a human/whatever life form to grow up and be positively disposed to you. In both instances you're doing the tampering when they aren't sapient/aware, but in the end you're altering their mind for your benefit - even if in Halla's case, she wouldn't mistreat it or anything. It's still pretty wack.
I think the difference is in how much you tamper with it. there is guiding and there is programming. the purpose and extent also matter. there is making them be your utter slave and there is making sure their spirit isn't a monster(both edge cases obviously). should also be noted there is difference between creating a spirit item in a xianxia story and genetically engineering humans in, say, a dark sci fi story. the story's moral system might differ a bit from reality
 
I think the difference is in how much you tamper with it. there is guiding and there is programming. the purpose and extent also matter. there is making them be your utter slave and there is making sure their spirit isn't a monster(both edge cases obviously). should also be noted there is difference between creating a spirit item in a xianxia story and genetically engineering humans in, say, a dark sci fi story. the story's moral system might differ a bit from reality

I personally see both as a very deep violation of someone's privacy, regardless of whether it's total control or guidance. They can't exactly consent to the latter. Not to mention that just because it's seen as socially acceptable doesn't make it any better. Like, slavery is literally a thing that's seen as fine for the Norse. I don't think I need to say much more than that.
 
Hey @Imperial Fister, you know how we were going to offer to buy up wolf pelts to trade on the expedition/use the hunting trip as a recruiting opportunity for rowers/traders?
Ope, I seem to have forgotten. I'll add in an option to do that before you head on out to Wessex.
@Imperial Fister

'Sagaseeker, how would you feel about me Realizing another item in my arsenal?'
"I don't really care." You can tell that he's not being completely honest right now. Cats.
Blackhand what do you think of influencing the personality of a realized item during realization? do you think it is morally wrong?
'I suppose it's not any different then raising a child in a particular way. Is that morally wrong?'
@Imperial Fister

'Hey, Blackhand? Do you remember why you were looking to put together the Weapon that could break Steel? The specifics?'
'I don't believe I had all the pieces. In fact, I would call anyone who said they did a liar. However, I know that two pieces were used in the creation of Gram. I don't remember how I learned that or where, but it is likely that whatever I was doing involved Gram in some way, shape, or form.'

0~0~0

Alright, voting is now closed. It's time to get this show on the road!
Scheduled vote count started by Imperial Fister on Jul 30, 2023 at 9:15 PM, finished with 206 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Trading Expedition
    -[X] (Exploration) Go on a walk through...
    --[X] The fields!
    --[X] Looking for any resources that might help our soulscape's fields
    ---[X] (Optional) Send your fylgja in your place (Does not cost an action)
    -[X] (Personal) Spend time with...
    --[X] Gabriel
    --[X] Talk to him about heading to Wessex for trade and what goods they'd likely value most that are cheap locally, see if he wants to come along and in what context.
    -[X] (Visit) Trading Expedition
    --[X] Go to Asvir, recruit men, buy trade goods
    --[X] While in Asvir, handle the mediation with Skoll if possible
    --[X] Head out on Wavedancer for Wessex (or wherever the Seeress advises if she thinks Wessex is a bad idea) to buy food, maybe the Danelaw as well, depending
    --[X] While there we may do a bit of exploring, and will offer our services to quickly deal with monsters or bandits for a very reasonable fee (though we won't fight for them against the Danelaw or other Norse...we have friends and relatives over there)
    -[X] (Personal) Clear Out The Underhouse
    -[X] [Social] (Playdates) Set up a playdate between one/multiple of your kids and one/multiple of other kids.
    --[X] Inviting Rinda-Ryggia (Fjord Family) and Markvard-Brigida-Siggunr (Asvir Family)
    --[X] Suggesting our children spend time especially with Ryggia, Markvard, and Siggunr
    --[X] Keeping a particular watch on Asgeirr to ensure there are no further incidents (well, none involving physical violence anyway)
    -[X] (Seeress) Learn seidr with the Seeress (Only available during Summer)
    --[X] Ask her the best place to go on our food expedition (if more specificity is needed, maybe the best place in Britain, or even specifically in Wessex). She's a seeress and should have some insight into this.
    --[X] Learn Banishing Rebuke
    --[X] Talk about how the fylgja interacts with seidr and ask for a list of seidr spells involving the fylgja to potentially study on our own
    -[X] (Rolled)
    --[X] Train Kindle-Spinner 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Firebomb-Strike 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Ember-Winged Cloak 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Hamr Itself 2d6 (1d6)
    --[X] Train Hugr itself 2d6 (1d6)
    --[X] Train Fylgja itself 44d6 (22d6)
    --[X] Train Silver-Tongue 3d6
    -[X] (Research)
    --[X] Taking the same precautions we do when Infusing Hugr try infusing 1 Odr into Stoker State
    --[X] Attempt to use our Unending Time In The Sun and some of the healing water to help our soulscape's farm by giving it magical water and sunlight 1d6
    ---[X] If rolls are involved stoking Frami, Virthing, and Saemd (+3 successes)
    ---[X] Again, if rolls are involved, using Frenzy if possible (+5 successes if it works)
    --[X] Continue otherwise trying to improve our soulscape's farm 1d6
    ---[X] Starting over from scratch if necessary if the healing water/sunlight doesn't help
    ---[X] Stoking Frami, Virthing, and Saemd (+3 successes)
    ---[X] Using Frenzy if possible (+5 successes if it works)
    --[X] Continue working on our house in our soulscape 1d6
    ---[X] Stoking Frami, Virthing, and Saemd (+3 successes) and likely using Tools (for +9 successes)
    ---[X] Using Hearthroot Oil for heating our home and thus re-purposing what would otherwise be firewood for this to keep our wood consumption inconspicuous outside the household.
    ---[X] Remember to add Glowstones to the house at the appropriate stage of things to improve it
    --[X] Try feeding Sagaseeker up to 12 oz. of Molten Iron (one oz. at a time) and see if he can absorb them and what effect that has...if it allows him to duplicate its properties, stop once he can fully do so 1d6
    --[X] Try and start teaching Sagaseeker the Atgeir Bodyguard Trick, the Long Lunge Trick, and the Skewer-Flick Trick 1d6
    --[X] With Abjorn's help, teach Shadeclaw how to use her Aspects 1d6
    --[X] Research the multiplying fish 1d6 (Refund)
    ---[X] Make sure to use Identify Concept as part of this
    --[X] Experiment with using glue from the sealwood trees inside the pottery of our Explosive Charms to make a glue bomb. If we can do it as part of the same research, also try and use Hearthroot Oil in the same charms and make what amounts to magic napalm grenades 1d6 (Refund)
    -[X] (Drifa) Teach Drifa some of your tricks
    --[X] Teach her Leaping Cleave (with warnings about the dangers involved), Heated Shroud, Sway, and Shatter-Wrist 1d6
    ---[X] Accompany this with a discussion about when it is wise and appropriate to fight and when it isn't, and other standards of appropriate behavior needed to be a dreng.
    -[X] (Training) Solo Seidr Training
    --[X] Bone Settlement 1d6
    --[X] Doorway Ward 1d6
    -[X] (Blackhand's Training) Try to develop old/train new hugareida tricks
    --[X] Train Halting Vortex 1d6
    --[X] Train Sword Guard 1d6
    --[X] Train Atgeir Counter Stab 1d6
    --[X] Train Atgeir Bodyguard 1d6
    --[X] Train Forceful Lever 1d6
    --[X] Train Spring Source 1d6
    --[X] Train Scouring Cleanse 1d6
    --[X] Train Sailwind 1d6
    -[X] (Training) Martial Style
    --[X] Train Stoker State 1d6 (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Fire Poker 1d6 (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Devouring Blaze 1d6 (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Stoking Strike 1d6 (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Stoking Guard 1d6 (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Flame Tending Blade 1d6 (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Glima 1d6
    --[X] Train Fang 1d6
    --[X] Train Momentum Reversal 1d6
    -[X] (Training) Hamr (74 successes to rank up)
    --[X] Train Focus Guard 1d6
    --[X] Train Backstep 1d6
    --[X] Train Long-Lunge 1d6
    -[X] (Training) Hugr (53 successes to rank up)
    --[X] Talk to Sten about how to make an Axe and Ranged weapons (the latter with an eye towards remaking or reforging the bolt thrower)
    --[X] Train Facial Schooling 1d6
    --[X] Train Talent Tell 1d6
    --[X] Train 'Axe' Weaponcraft Skill-Trick 1d6 (+1 Success from Sten)
    --[X] Train 'Ranged' Weaponcraft Skill-Trick 1d6 (+1 Success from Sten)
    -[X] (Work Dice Usage)
    --[X] Buildings: 6 Quality, 1 Living Space, 5 Storage, 5 Workshop (17 Total)
    --[X] Resources: 6 Quality, 7 Food, 7 Goods, 5 Silver (25 Total)
    --[X] Livestock: 5 Quality, 4 Food, 4 Goods, 4 Silver (17 Total)
    --[X] Crafting: Making 2 Exploding Charms (6 Total)
    --[X] Conversion: Spend for 6 Research Dice (12 Total)
    -[X] (Incidentals)
    --[X] Adding Taafl Board Capacity Gains to: Asgeirr, Eyvor
    --[X] Receiving Metal from Dwarves: 6 oz Molten Iron
    -[X] (Capacity Slots)
    --[X] Assign Banish The Night, Identify Concept, and Banishing Rebuke
    --[X] Unassign Vows of Love, Fireside Barrage, and Forceful Lever
    -[X] (Orthstirr Usage)
    --[X] 1 Orthstirr to Hamr
    ---[X] 4 Chop, 4 Defend, 5 Dodge, 4 Bash, 4 Pierce, 4 Throw, 4 Cut, 4 Strike, 4 Shoot, 3 Farmwork, 4 Labor, 4 Overland (48 total)
    --[X] 2 Orthstirr to Hugr
    ---[X] 6 Artcraft, 5 Armorcraft, 4 Barb-Tongue, 1 Composure, 4 Design, 6 Housecraft, 4 Management, 3 Scouting, 3/4 Silver-Tongue (depending on whether it increases), 5 Sailing, 3 Strategy, 4 Tactics, 5 Weaponcraft, 3 Wordplay, 5 Wildcraft (61/62 total)
    --[X] 16 Odr and 1/2 Orthstirr to Fylgja (depending on whether it increases)
    ---[X] 3 Command
    --[X] 1 First Impression
    --[X] 46 Stored Tricks
    --[X] 460/458 free for tricks (depending on whether Silver Tongue and Fylgja increase)
 
'I don't believe I had all the pieces. In fact, I would call anyone who said they did a liar. However, I know that two pieces were used in the creation of Gram. I don't remember how I learned that or where, but it is likely that whatever I was doing involved Gram in some way, shape, or form.'

Uh, sorry to have you answer again, but I more so meant why Blackhand was looking to make it to begin with, not the pieces used to create it. Although that's certainly useful info.

It seems likely that Gram was repurposed later down the line into the Weapon.
 
'I suppose it's not any different then raising a child in a particular way. Is that morally wrong?'
I think thats a good arguement for it.

no one in any society, consent or no, is free from influence and even control of others' on his life and belief. the only way not to consent is to live alone on an island with zero human connection.
a spirit item lacks that, but our influence on it is crucial. in fact, making sure it doesn't become some monstrosity is not only okay, but actually our duty when creating something. as is our duty to care for it and make sure it is used well, and treated fairly, and has the mindset that allows it to have a good life.
I personally see both as a very deep violation of someone's privacy, regardless of whether it's total control or guidance. They can't exactly consent to the latter. Not to mention that just because it's seen as socially acceptable doesn't make it any better. Like, slavery is literally a thing that's seen as fine for the Norse. I don't think I need to say much more than that.
I am not saying that something being accepted means its moral. what I am saying is that its okay for stories, especially those of fantasy worlds, to have a slightly different moral code then what we use real life. it has limit, obviously. genocide or murder aren't acceptable. slavery or rape aren't. but there are things not okay in our world and okay in a story. especially those things morality isn't clear on.
we wanted to kill Horra as vengeance for killing our uncles and to get Seidr. in the real world, thats wrong. in that story it was acceptable, even moral action
 
"I don't really care." You can tell that he's not being completely honest right now. Cats.

Also, that's a classic answer from a kid when they don't like something. Hm. Sad.

no one in any society, consent or no, is free from influence and even control of others' on his life and belief. the only way not to consent is to live alone on an island with zero human connection.
a spirit item lacks that, but our influence on it is crucial. in fact, making sure it doesn't become some monstrosity is not only okay, but actually our duty when creating something. as is our duty to care for it and make sure it is used well, and treated fairly, and has the mindset that allows it to have a good life.

Influence is fine, but my problem was specifically using magical influence or something to ensure influence. Ultimately like you said, it's impossible to not be influenced by the people around you, especially those closest to you.
 
Also, that's a classic answer from a kid when they don't like something. Hm. Sad.



Influence is fine, but my problem was specifically using magical influence or something to ensure influence. Ultimately like you said, it's impossible to not be influenced by the people around you, especially those closest to you.
it used with caution? there is no real difference. magical control and domination is bad obviously. but forging an armor and making it protective in mindset? or influencing its personality slightly? seems rather innocent. as IF said, its not very different then teaching our kids?
 
Never said to make it an immediate concern, i just noted that it could be useful to gain a bit of Orthstirr risk-free when we have an action to spare.

Oh certainly. We'll probably do them sometime.

By the way, @DeadmanwalkingXI, is the plan to go to Wessex and trade for grain and other valuables, then come back to Agder and sell them/distribute accordingly, or will we use the information Tuskpuncher gave us and go from Wessex to somewhere else to sell what we get?

Go to Wessex and then come home, probably. We might stop somewhere else if it's basically on the way, like the Danelaw, but nowhere we have to travel far for.
 
I mean we sort of have used magic to influence the personality of our kids. And to make them eight feet tall. It's just babies start small and unformed while realized beings start sort of partly formed then suddenly become developed people.
 
I mean we sort of have used magic to influence the personality of our kids. And to make them eight feet tall. It's just babies start small and unformed while realized beings start sort of partly formed then suddenly become developed people.

Spending Reward Dice is not an in-universe effect, it's a meta thing. Hamingja and Muna are more arguable whether they're IC, but all we've done with Hamingja and Muna is grant Godly Luck and Seeing Eyes...which aren't really personality traits per se. I guess we also granted Leader once, maybe that counts?
 
Training and research are all completed, on to the exploring, seeress, Gabriel, and then Asvir

It took me a while to figure out evolutions for the fylgja as well as fun side-effects
 
Excited to see what a fantastic array of owls we have to choose from.

Ope, I seem to have forgotten. I'll add in an option to do that before you head on out to Wessex.

Cheers!

Also, if we wanted to find out how Steinarr felt about the idea of us Realising Crowfeeder as a gift to him/our descendants, how would we go about doing that? Would it need a Social action with him, or could we ask him when he pops over to see us by spending a training dice or something, or spend a Reward Dice, orrr... ?
 
Also, if we wanted to find out how Steinarr felt about the idea of us Realising Crowfeeder as a gift to him/our descendants, how would we go about doing that? Would it need a Social action with him, or could we ask him when he pops over to see us by spending a training dice or something, or spend a Reward Dice, orrr... ?
You can do that as part of the free social you get when you train with him
 
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