True but also consider that they have sealed rooms literally full of darkside artifacts stashed inside the temple. The same temple in which they mediate to connect to the force and train the younglings. Even if they prevent anyone unauthorized from finding the rooms (which they MASSIVELY failed at in one of the novel) what effect do you think that has on the residents especially the younlings?

...is that also a thing

because that is literally the same damn thing Atris did in KOTOR II and look where that got her

Uggghhhh...I hate that I have to address all of these plot holes and the like myself and make it into a coherent narrative. I hate it. It's so damned frustrating when bad writing like that gets in the way of telling a good story.
 
True but also consider that they have sealed rooms literally full of darkside artifacts stashed inside the temple. The same temple in which they mediate to connect to the force and train the younglings. Even if they prevent anyone unauthorized from finding the rooms (which they MASSIVELY failed at in one of the novel) what effect do you think that has on the residents especially the younlings?
Why would they even keep the artifacts? Why not just throw them into the nearest star?
 
Honestly, I'd take the report of a pillar of water and fire to be that the just so happened to be a tornado that formed as they attack, then picked up a bunch of fuel that leaked out from the combat.

Because neither dark nor light get to do that... Especially on a pillar of water! Nobody gets to create water!
 
Why would they even keep the artifacts? Why not just throw them into the nearest star?

Presumably due to Atris Logic: "If I have these incredibly corrupting and dangerous artifacts around that will help me understand how to fight Sith better." Or something. I can't remember the actual train of "logic" she used but then again "logical reasoning" and "Atris" never really went together anyway.
 
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It may also be a combination of not letting anyone inside the Order know about the Dark Vaults until those in the know get offed one way or another, or the records of the Dark Vaults getting expunged by someone periodically like the clone planet's data entry was in the second movie.
 
Why would they even keep the artifacts? Why not just throw them into the nearest star?
Presumably due to Atris Logic: "If I have these incredibly corrupting and dangerous artifacts around that will help me understand how to fight Sith better." Or something. I can't remember the actual train of "logic" she used but then again "logical reasoning" and "Atris" never really went together in that game anyway.
Honestly, it makes sense in a peculiar way.

Most, if not all, Sith artifacts have varying degrees of sentience and some can even manipulate the Force in their own Right, leading to some bullshit abilities like swapping the soul of one person with the soul inside said relic. So you don't even know if destroying would solve the issue or make it worse, like say consuming the star it was thrown into and making it a Rogue Star that emits Darkside Rays or something. So they need a place to keep that shit away from the general public while trying to figure out how to neutralize their threat.

Of course where they fucked up was:
1) They did not learn from history and realize that this shit needs to be guarded and studied by Jedi with strong enough willpower.
2) They forgot that Younglings are learning how to use the Force, being around Darkside Artifacts during this stage can only harm.
3) They forgot that there are technologies and materials that can interfere with the Force, using those in its vaults can only help.
4) They forgot about the whole "keeping it away from the general public" issue and didn't use remote temples that could have been purpose built for storing, studying, and then neutralizing Sith Artifacts.


By the way, is it just me or is Star Wars just a Sci-fi Xianxia Setting?
 
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So you don't even know if destroying would solve the issue or make it worse, like say consuming the star it was thrown into and making it a Rogue Star that emits Darkside Rays or something.
If that were possible, then the Jedi would be able to make stars that emit Lightside Rays and make everyone happy and good forever. They do not because they cannot, ergo the Sith cannot make artifacts of such power.
 
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If that were possible, then the Jedi would be able to make starts that emit Lightside Rays and make everyone happy and good forever. They do not because they cannot, ergo the Sith cannot make artifacts of such power.
The Sith can have someone who can consume planets, but the Jedi do not have anyone like that.

Just saying that the Lightside and Darkside can have different abilities, especially when Sith Alchemy gets involved.
 
Not necessarily, there are certain monastic orders that allow for adherents to journey across the lands to other temples and places to spread the word of their beliefs, such as the Shaolin Monasteries that are Buddhist.
Not to mention the mendicant orders in Catholicism, like the Franciscans and Dominicans.

To be honest, as much as Star Wars owes its origins to George Lucas's pseudo-Buddhist vision of the Force, I am much more fascinated by the potential for exploring other types of monasticism, and turning real-world monastic orders into in-universe Force sects. (This is a slight spoiler for anyone who's been following my Gray Paladin quest...).

Because neither dark nor light get to do that... Especially on a pillar of water! Nobody gets to create water!
Technically, the Shapers of Kro Var are probably able to make water -- elemental powers are basically their thing. There's also the Baran Do Sages, who specialize in nature manipulation -- mostly related to the weather, but that presumably includes water manipulation on a massive scale given that they're apparently able to calm hurricanes and such.

Here's the wiki article for Pyrokinesis (aka fire-bending). There isn't a dedicated page for Hydrokinesis, but 'Alter Environment' seems to cover most of it, along with 'Force Storm'.

because that is literally the same damn thing Atris did in KOTOR II and look where that got her
It's even more 'literally what Atris did', since it's not artifacts so much as it is a collection of Sith holocrons, which get stored in the Holocron Vaults next to the main Jedi Archives or in the Holocron Chamber within the Tower of First Knowledge. On the plus side, at least the vaults are accessible by any Jedi Master, so there's less opportunity for one person to hoard the holocrons' knowledge and become corrupted, plus there's oversight and restrictions on accessing them. OTOH... the Jedi seem to have forgotten the whole 'passive dark-side influence' is a thing.

That's not the most egregious bit, though. According to the 2014 Tarkin novel, the Jedi Temple itself was built on an ancient Sith shrine.

:facepalm:
 
In all honesty, if the Jedi simply removed themselves as enforcers of galactic law and instead worked as an (intergalactic)NGO, charity and advocacy group much like Amnesty International, Doctors without Border's, the Red Cross (even groups that monitor democracy and corruption levels). Even the Catholic Church or any other religion which works closely with local communities and across the world, things would work so much better for them.

They wouldn't be tied to Senatorial politics and by nature of their work they could lobby on specific humanitarian issues, even constitutional and moral ones (such as corruption). If Jedi wanted to be negotiators for the Republic then they can go through the same process every other sentient has to to become a negotiator as a private citizen but overall the Jedi would be divorced from association with the Galactic Senate and could instead focus on doing good, as well as follow the will of the force without being tied to a galactic bureaucracy.
 
In all honesty, if the Jedi simply removed themselves as enforcers of galactic law and instead worked as an (intergalactic)NGO, charity and advocacy group much like Amnesty International, Doctors without Border's, the Red Cross (even groups that monitor democracy and corruption levels). Even the Catholic Church or any other religion which works closely with local communities and across the world, things would work so much better for them.

They wouldn't be tied to Senatorial politics and by nature of their work they could lobby on specific humanitarian issues, even constitutional and moral ones (such as corruption). If Jedi wanted to be negotiators for the Republic then they can go through the same process every other sentient has to to become a negotiator as a private citizen but overall the Jedi would be divorced from association with the Galactic Senate and could instead focus on doing good, as well as follow the will of the force without being tied to a galactic bureaucracy.
The Jedi are warriors. They can't do things like fight slavery and stuff if they limit themselves to charity work.
 
...What the hell.

I was reading 'Shades of Gray', a Star Wars story over at SpaceBattles, and came across this passage:

This struck me as typical "but from my point of view the Jedi are evil" whining, so I looked it up.

Except the text is true.

Per the wiki, "Master Vookto used his powers of elemental summoning to cleanse the planet with twin pillars of water and fire." According to the sidebar info, the casualties from the battle include:

Recall that Lianna is an ecumenopolis -- that is, a city-planet like Coruscant or Taris. Again per the wiki, its population is 5.6 billion. However, this number is sourced from Mission to Lianna, which is a RPG supplement based on the original trilogy. That means that 5.6 billion is the number of inhabitants that survived the battle -- actually, not even that, 5.6 billion is the population after the planet had two decades to recover and repopulate.

Compare to other ecumenopolises around the galaxy:
  • Alsakan (Core): 1 trillion inhabitants
  • Denon (Inner Rim): over 500 billion inhabitants
  • Karideph (Outer Rim): over 88 billion inhabitants
  • Metellos (Core): 900 billion inhabitants
  • Nar Shaddaa (Hutt Space): over 85 billion inhabitants
  • Skako (Core): between 100-500 billion inhabitants... decades after the Clone Wars ended
So we're looking at an initial population that probably exceeds 100 billion, reduced to 5 billion or so in a single battle. That means Master Vookto's attempt to "cleanse the planet" was responsible for most of 95 billion deaths.

And the Republic considered this a "victory", because the CIS didn't get its hands on a Sienar Fleet Systems starfighter facility.

...95 billion deaths, to protect a single
factory?!

And then the Jedi have the audacity to honor Master Vookto with a funeral pyre, over the ashes of the planet he personally destroyed?

:mob:

Ok, I'll have to tackle this. With the risk of sounding like a complete Jedi apologist, I think you are using incomplete information to jump to the worst possible conclusion.

Going through it all in order:

That means Master Vookto's attempt to "cleanse the planet" was responsible for most of 95 billion deaths.
1. Who destroyed the planet?
The only information I could find on Wookipedia was that Lianna was devastated by the battle. There is no information about how much of this destruction was caused by Master Vookto's elemental force storm and how much was caused by artillery, orbital bombardment etc. during the battle. You seem to be assuming Vookto was responsible for all the death and destruction, but there is no evidence of that. On the contrary, it is implied his move was a desperate last ditch effort, the battle had raged for a long time by then. We dont know how much of the city was left standing at that point.

2. The numbers. You are assuming 95 billion losses by comparing Lianna to other city-planets. But you are cherrypicking your data and have only compared it to the largest ecumenopolises in the galaxy. We also have Gerrenthum (5 billion), Vorzyd V (2 billion) and tiny Humbarine, with a population of 10-100 million(!?). Granted, most ecumenopolises in the list have a population over 50 billion, but smaller ones exist. Your conclusion about losses does not hold up. Especially since according to the map below, most (about 60%) of Lianna is water. The whole planet is not covered by the city. Lianna is also in the Outer rim, where the population density generally seems to be lower.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...terrain.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060610110432
Humbarine/Legends
Vorzyd V

3. Star Wars Legends is filled with weird stuff like this that might be best left alone. It seems to me that different writers wrote different things following Rule of Cool without staying consistent with each other. The battle of Lianna was never seen "onscreen", as far as I have managed to find out. It was only mentioned in a worldbuilding source and the mace windu comic. So we dont know what happened there, and the writer who wrote the summary of the battle might not be the same writer who placed Liannas population at 5 million.

4. We have no reason to believe there was any big coverup about Lianna. The jedi held a hero's funeral for Vookto, and nobody in the Senate raised the issue. This early in the war, there was already a substantial anti-war faction in the Senate. (Padme among then.) But nobody seems to have had a problem with what happened on Lianna, which to me strongly implies that there were not 95 billion civilian losses caused by the direct actions of a Jedi Master.
 
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In all honesty, if the Jedi simply removed themselves as enforcers of galactic law and instead worked as an (intergalactic)NGO, charity and advocacy group much like Amnesty International, Doctors without Border's, the Red Cross (even groups that monitor democracy and corruption levels). Even the Catholic Church or any other religion which works closely with local communities and across the world, things would work so much better for them.

They wouldn't be tied to Senatorial politics and by nature of their work they could lobby on specific humanitarian issues, even constitutional and moral ones (such as corruption). If Jedi wanted to be negotiators for the Republic then they can go through the same process every other sentient has to to become a negotiator as a private citizen but overall the Jedi would be divorced from association with the Galactic Senate and could instead focus on doing good, as well as follow the will of the force without being tied to a galactic bureaucracy.


So much for training with laserswords for a decade or more to become a Knight.
 
The Jedi are warriors. They can't do things like fight slavery and stuff if they limit themselves to charity work.
As were the Shaolin Monks, they were followers of Buddhism who were renowned as warriors, but there have been stories of monks fighting off bandits that threatened villages, deposed corrupt officials, and in one famous case, fought the army of a corrupt Emperor who tried to force the Shaolin to send warriors to join his army.

Likewise the Knights Templar, they were also a monastic order iirc.

Basically? Charity Work can extend to all kinds of things, including liberating the oppressed.
 
Didn't the Jedi withdraw from solving all the Galaxy's problems after Ruusan? Becoming primarily diplomats, teachers, farmers and healers with a side order of multipurpose badasses for dealing with Dark Side assholes.

It's just that the Republic was being undermined and defanged by the Sith at the same time forcing he Jedi to act outside their new role.
 
The Jedi are warriors. They can't do things like fight slavery and stuff if they limit themselves to charity work.

Yet they are bound by the borders of the Galactic Republic, which even at the best of times lets corporate conglomerates occupy swathes of territory and govern themselves. The Jedi have had over a thousand years to stomp out slavery, its their ties to the governance of the Republic that limit their ability to act in the galaxy. Any actions they take reflect on the government and could amount to a declaration of war if 2,000 Jedi descended onto Hutt Space to dismantle the apparatus of slavery.

Even the Jedi would disagree with you claiming they're warriors and would refer to themselves as Peacekeepers, yet the peace they keep is the Republics peace and we know how law enforcement can be used to enforce unjust laws.

And I didn't say they shouldnt be Knights either I simply said that they would achieve their goals if they divorced themselves from the Republic as an organization and instead focused on acting how NGOs do. The fatal flaw in your argument is that NGOs arent charities, they're everything from Think Tanks to advocacy groups to charities to companies.

The Knights Hospitaler were a Militant Monastic Order which also did great acts of charity. Its a misnomer that teaching a Jedi to use a lightsaber confines them to the roll of Jedi knights, if that were the case in real life or even in Star Wars Anakin would be a slave pod-racer and people would never move past their first job. By taking self-defense lessons or learning martial arts I dont confine myself to the role of punching who the government tells me to or my sensei tells me to.
 
Didn't the Jedi withdraw from solving all the Galaxy's problems after Ruusan? Becoming primarily diplomats, teachers, farmers and healers with a side order of multipurpose badasses for dealing with Dark Side assholes.

It's just that the Republic was being undermined and defanged by the Sith at the same time forcing he Jedi to act outside their new role.
I counter this assertion that it solved "all the Galaxy's problems" by pointing out the existence of the Hutts, Black Sun et al.

Space Magic is not the primary cause of suffering in the galaxy.
 
Didn't the Jedi withdraw from solving all the Galaxy's problems after Ruusan? Becoming primarily diplomats, teachers, farmers and healers with a side order of multipurpose badasses for dealing with Dark Side assholes.
No, the Jedi had their own Military Forces and Structures before the Ruusan Reformation, but they completely disabled them and then placed themselves under the supervision of the Supreme Chancellor to alay fears that the Jedi were building up to conquering the Republic through military force.
 
Clearly a Sith lord attacked Vooktu and there was a coverup!

But, more seriously. The Sith do a lot of large scale shit because the entire basis of their power is tapping into 'do shit' emotions. The Jedi are reactive/passive because their entire basis is to tamp down on the natural desire to Do Something Now.

Which as anyone with homework knows, means Now becomes Tomorrow indefinitely.

Thus, the Sith constantly push the limits of the possible, ignoring whether it is sane or wise, while the Jedi keep trying to make sure that they really HAVE to do this before they do anything at all, much less cutting edge mystic development
 
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