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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)

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Killerflood said:
So I watched the video of Kreia's philosophy which has been linked to previously. I then saw a follow up where the weaknesses of the Grey Jedi are also explored. From this, I became worried for Ciaran's current stability.



I mostly agree with it. I think we all believe that the Dark side of the Force (even those who subscribe to a Yin/Yang interpretation instead of a Good/Evil one) to be influential for a person using it. Mentally, that is. Unlike real life, where there isn't a supernatural force/entity that actively influences a person either by small nudges or via interacting with it, the Force does both. Especially the Dark side. One must always be in control of oneself.

In my opinion, that's just not possible. At least, not for enough people to affect the galaxy to break the cycle.

This is where Ciaran will fall. I don't see her as strong enough not to lose control and you only need to lose control once. Right now the temptations aren't strong enough, she hasn't pulled from the Force deep enough, and her control hasn't weakened enough for her to slip. And I fear when that time comes. I also fear for those who have been taught her ways who don't have the strength of character enough not to fall.

I have no doubt that there have been agents and apprentices who have slipped and been forced to be killed. No matter Vectivus' and the Jedi Orders' teachings, that will only help the majority and a little bit more.

The Abyss Watchers pose a legitimate threat to galactic stability in the long run with the addition of the Agents. Right now, the threat of Sidious and Ciaran's laissez-faire personality has allowed and then forced us and the Council to be strange bed fellows. Once Palpatine is dealt with and galactic order restored, it is quite possible that (unless @Whumbly's AU comes to be) we will become the next possible threat to stability. Either from Ciaran slipping, or the Agents slipping and tearing the Watchers in two. As much as this being an AU might allow for the Watchers not to succumb to true Evil, it's still quite possible that a future White vs. Grey conflict (if by some fluke Black is eliminated ... see my opinion on that -> :rolleyes:) would push the Grey to become Black or join the Black.
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hahahahaha no
we literaly cant fall, it was a thing we were given when we got a certain force phantom, he makes it so thats not a problem, with his teachings.
 
Whumbly said:
Well to steer away from the subject of Jedi killing (which there are many options), I have a proposal for our new anti-Palpatine News Outlet.

The IRIS Network (Intergalactic Reporting of Integral Stories).

Yes, I did get the idea when last talking with Snark and it fits with the Abyss Watchers with the all-seeing-eye of our logo.
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Also perhaps buy up some media outlets.

The Karvoka Man said:
SOCILIATE SHOT, SHEEV SHAMED
-Headline, The Republicans, Assassination attempt + 6.5 hours

The Upper-Class 'The Republicans' was well known for it's opposition to Chancellor Palpatine, often running smear campaigns that skirted the bounds of libel. Never one to miss an opportunity to rip into their favourite punching bag, the Republicans blamed the attempt on the life of Lady Ciaran at his feet, in later weeks they would even insiuate the attack was on his order, as Ciaran was a keen ally of Padme Amidala, who the company insisted was at the top of Sheev Palpatine's hitlist.
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They hate Palpatine already, soooo....

The Karvoka Man said:
Lady Ciaran, SuperStar Sociliate has been badly injured in a terrifying attack on her house! Lucky for her, her (Ex-)Knight in Shining Armor, Count Dooku was there to save the day, rushing everyone's favourite Miraluka to safety at a secure medical facility! -At this point there is a large, shirtless insert of Count Dooku, carrying Ciaran. The artist has certainly gotten....creative. With the size of her chest.-
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Chengar Qordath said:
Truth Magazine: The News that the Mainstream Media Doesn't Want You to Hear!
​
Lady Ciaran Replaced with Infiltrator!
Her Personal Physician Reveals All!
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And I'd love to see the looks on these poor saps faces, honestly.
 
dredloki said:
hahahahaha no
we literaly cant fall, it was a thing we were given when we got a certain force phantom, he makes it so thats not a problem, with his teachings.
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As much as I understand that is a simple quest reward and thus assumed to be true, it still means little to me because it limits further character development possibilities.
 
Killerflood said:
As much as I understand that is a simple quest reward and thus assumed to be true, it still means little to me because it limits further character development possibilities.
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The problem is that a lot of that character development has already happened with Ciaran.

You have to understand a couple of things for that to make sense though.

First: Unlike a lot of people Ciaran has a perfect idea of what exactly she'd become if she fell: Nihilus. Even before meeting him in "person" she's heard horror stories about his unending hunger and how he would have consumed the galaxy without a thought ever since childhood. While Vectivus' teachings have definitely played a major role in keeping Ciaran from going full Sith Lord, having a concrete idea of the mindless and destructive monster she could turn into if she ever lost control helps keep her in check to put it mildly. Had she not gone to Malachor it would be a much more significant issue in the long run, but seeing Nihlius' void face-to-mask...you don't just walk away from that and pretend it doesn't matter. Especially given that Ciaran could literally see the Force dying just from the presence of his echo.

Second: A large part of the Apprentice/Agent process is explicitly designed to curtail overt Dark Side influences. They don't always work, and people who fail are quickly dealt with. Again, while Vectivus' teachings help having Tyro as a chief trainer is also a major factor: the Blazing Chains straight up execute anyone who falls as they are considered a threat to the fleet, and that mentality has been carried on to the Agents as well. That's not to say that people don't have issues with it (honestly I'm surprised you of all people are bringing this up given Dani's issues) but they're encouraged to treat it like an addiction that should be broken. Not to mention that the Blackguard have now been brought in to reinforce that mentality to an extent.

It's not like that conflict with the Dark isn't there. It definitely is. But the fact of the matter is that on a personal and institutional level there's a lot of factors to prevent people from falling. Even - and especially - when it comes to Ciaran herself.
 
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Dr. Snark said:
(honestly I'm surprised you of all people are bringing this up given Dani's issues)
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Okay, your explanation's helped but I wanted to reply to this. Why are you surprised? Dani has issues, yes, and I specifically wrote her as so. What does my worrying that such issues might be present in other Agents and that those issues might grow to be unmanageable in any of them have to deal specifically with Dani's?

Much like Ciaran, she has things that keep her from completely falling though. My post was primarily putting a spotlight on the potential for something to slip, even with all of those safe guards.
 
Killerflood said:
Okay, your explanation's helped but I wanted to reply to this. Why are you surprised? Dani has issues, yes, and I specifically wrote her as so. What does my worrying that such issues might be present in other Agents and that those issues might grow to be unmanageable in any of them have to deal specifically with Dani's?

Much like Ciaran, she has things that keep her from completely falling though. My post was primarily putting a spotlight on the potential for something to slip, even with all of those safe guards.
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It's less that and more I was wondering why you were suddenly talking so cynically about the topic. If anything Dani was a success story of someone who recognized that the Dark Side was unhealthy and was able to move past it enough to reach Abysswalker status.
 
The Jedi have a problem with falling that i think has been pointed out by fans way too often: they are philosophically extremists. There is the Light side and the Dark side, and very little if any in between. Thus Jedi don't learn the coping mechanisms that would help recover from starting to slide to the dark side. Maybe it would be better to say that when Jedi coping mechanisms fail they do so spectacularly. Sith coping methods seem to rely on keeping emotions high, and as such don't help matters.

Ciran can and will deal with emotions before her major breaking point, in part by having less severe ones. If she gets mad she will vent, maybe plot a bit, and then likely return to a more even keel. The emotions have been addressed and she can return to an even keel. Sith methods would have her stew in her anger and thus be very motivated. Jedi methods would have her let go of her emotions but not the cause, which could allow them to build up. Perhaps in a very bad way.

Look at Anakin; he had a problem from being a slave and viewing the Jedi masters , on at least some level, as similar to Watoo. The Jedi told him to let go, but they didn't try to deal with the underlying issue so Anakin's resentment kept building up. With Ciran he addressed what he emotionally had a problem with and came to address what he wanted most. If he stays, it is because he chose, if he leaves it is because he wants to be free. Making that choice reduces his stress tremendously because he is the one in control. Thus he is much more stable than he would otherwise be.
 
Dr. Snark said:
It's less that and more I was wondering why you were suddenly talking so cynically about the topic. If anything Dani was a success story of someone who recognized that the Dark Side was unhealthy and was able to move past it enough to reach Abysswalker status.
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... Because I'm a cynic?

It also didn't help that I had just finished both videos about Kreia's philosophy which mentioned the weaknesses of all sides of the Force. That was the primary factor.
 
Dr. Snark
In regard to Ciaran morality, we all know that she is a very grey person. But is it possible that she actually sometimes does good deeds because it was the right thing to do?
In my mind, I think that Ciaran likes to always think that she is a selfish person who only works for her self-benefit, although some of her actions cannot really be described as selfish.
Basically, a jedi/businesswoman version of Ciaphas Cain.
 
Night_stalker said:
Also perhaps buy up some media outlets.
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I thought we already created our own media on Taris and Coruscant.

Killerflood said:
*snip*
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Oh as for my AU's. Well it turns out the Jedi Theocracy thing was the end goal of Sora Bulq who saw the corruption in the Republic (planets blatantly defying what the Republic was supposed to stand for) and from first hand experience, came to the conclusion that the Jedi were basically being used as the clean up crew for the Senate's mistakes.

In the Original Timeline it was fifty percent of the reason he joined Dooku, because he thought Force Sensitives could do a better job that the Republic's current leadership.

The other half was he'd already fallen to the Dark Side after secretly going against Windu's rule of only practicing Vapaad with each other so they weren't 'corrupting' themselves.

Looking over his original actions I'd say he's pretending to be one of the Jedi who are shocked by the horror of the Clone Wars and refused to fight, but managed to get away with it by teaching those who want to fight lightsaber combat to defend themselves (while quietly corrupting them). It would be a nice explanation to why Barriss went from Ahsoka's Best Friend to Ruthless Renegade.
 
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And if the Jedi really start to become a problem after we have dealt with Palpatine, we can always destroy the order using one of the most terrifying and relentless forces in our arsenal, the Free Market.

We just need to pull our strings in the Senate, and pass a resolution so that the Jedi can only recruit volunteers old enough to give a conscient consent (16 years more or less)...

This will not reduce the number of recruits for the Jedi a lot, because there is no sane teenager who would want to join an order that will make you renounce your family and friends, and live by the maxims of Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience when he can join the Abyss Watchers or and become James Bond with magic powers and a ridiculous paycheck.
 
Whumbly said:
I thought we already created our own media on Taris and Coruscant.
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always cheaper to buy your own. And comes with a audience.

Fanhunter696 said:
And if the Jedi really start to become a problem after we have dealt with Palpatine, we can always destroy the order using one of the most terrifying and relentless forces in our arsenal, the Free Market.
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Nah, we just sit back and wait. We don't have anything they can bust us on, and their popularity is on the downfall.
 
Fanhunter696 said:
And if the Jedi really start to become a problem after we have dealt with Palpatine, we can always destroy the order using one of the most terrifying and relentless forces in our arsenal, the Free Market.

We just need to pull our strings in the Senate, and pass a resolution so that the Jedi can only recruit volunteers old enough to give a conscient consent (16 years more or less)...

This will not reduce the number of recruits for the Jedi a lot, because there is no sane teenager who would want to join an order that will make you renounce your family and friends, and live by the maxims of Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience when he can join the Abyss Watchers or and become James Bond with magic powers and a ridiculous paycheck.
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You will be surprised. There are plenty of young people who become nuns and priests every year all over the world.
Although it is not stated, it is implied that religious beliefs in regards to the Force were common during the time of the Old Republic. The belief in the Force was not solely a Jedi belief. What the Jedi believed was related to the common people's beliefs of the Force. It was only during the Galactic Empire, that religions and knowledge regarding the Force were suppressed and persecuted. The Emperor did not want any potential rivals and desired to keep the origins of his power secret.
 
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So... it use occurs to me that the Abyss Walkers are basicly the Evil Kenval of force users. Always jumping the Chasm. Never falling to the the Dark Side because that is Death, but never accepting the Light Side because that is Stagnation.
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
My friends in the Jesuits may like to discuss your concept of plenty, it is true that there is still vocations and people who become nuns and priests, but the decline is immense and it is getting worse each year...
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You are correct. But there is a difference between a planetwide decline and a galactic decline.
The Jedi have more than enough people.
 
Killerflood said:
... Because I'm a cynic?

It also didn't help that I had just finished both videos about Kreia's philosophy which mentioned the weaknesses of all sides of the Force. That was the primary factor.
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Isn't that accurate though? There was a reason that before the great schism those who drew too deeply on either the light or dark sides of the force would be banished to reflect upon their antithesis. The truth is that without a counterweight or moderating influence, it is likely that the Jedi would pull a Stargate Ancients upon the galaxy.
 
MagusBlack said:
So... it use occurs to me that the Abyss Walkers are basicly the Evil Kenval of force users. Always jumping the Chasm. Never falling to the the Dark Side because that is Death, but never accepting the Light Side because that is Stagnation.
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Is the light side itself stagnation, or did the pre-Palpatine purge Jedi have a false idea that the light side was stagnation?

Personally, as a storyteller I find it more interesting to follow the premise that the Jedi had bad ideas and did not have perfect knowledge of the Force.

Dr. Snark said:
Second: A large part of the Apprentice/Agent process is explicitly designed to curtail overt Dark Side influences. They don't always work, and people who fail are quickly dealt with. Again, while Vectivus' teachings help having Tyro as a chief trainer is also a major factor: the Blazing Chains straight up execute anyone who falls as they are considered a threat to the fleet, and that mentality has been carried on to the Agents as well. That's not to say that people don't have issues with it (honestly I'm surprised you of all people are bringing this up given Dani's issues) but they're encouraged to treat it like an addiction that should be broken. Not to mention that the Blackguard have now been brought in to reinforce that mentality to an extent.

It's not like that conflict with the Dark isn't there. It definitely is. But the fact of the matter is that on a personal and institutional level there's a lot of factors to prevent people from falling. Even - and especially - when it comes to Ciaran herself.
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Hrrrm. One could say that both the Jedi and the Sith have large parts of their training methods devoted to curtailing Dark Side influences. The Jedi seek to train their students to avoid it completely and the Sith seek to purge the weak (working on the premise that most Sith seek to influence the Dark Side, rather than BE influenced by it like a weak puppet).

Also, given that fear leads to anger and all that, I can see many ways for a policy of "execute the fallen" to backfire just like the Jedi policies sometimes backfire.

Heck, if we treat Kreia's lecture on Force Bonds from KotOR 2 as canon, unless the Abyss Walkers discourage members from emotional connections like the Jedi or regularly kill their friends and loved ones like the Sith, I can easily imagine one person falling, being marked for execution, that pushing their Force-sensitive friends and lovers over the edge so they fall too, and the domino effect of falls pulling others to fall through their Force bonds and the violence and hate unleashed only adding to the pressure, causing the whole organization to fall at once.

Now, I am playing devil's advocate here, so don't take this as a criticism of what you are saying. My own idea of what the Abyss Watchers are like (and Ciaran's risk of falling) is very much in line with yours.

The only difference in our views may lie in that I suspect that the Abyss Watchers are exploiting the weak Force sensitivity of their recruits as an advantage. Risk of falling seems to scale with sensitivity to the Force in the various Star Wars media, so an organization built out of people who were weak enough to avoid detection by Jedi recruiters would seem to have a large advantage in avoiding Dark Side corruption.

Of course, with a low risk of corruption, the Abyss Watchers wouldn't need to discourage Force bonds, and if Force bonds increase strength in the Force in a person (which is how it worked in KotOR 2), that would give the Abyss Walker training regime a way to strengthen the Abyss Agents once they'd learned the basics. I really like the idea of the Abyss Walkers being an organization of barely Force sensitive Force users who are strong enough to take on Jedi knights because of the power of friendship, knowledge of esoteric Force techniques and superior sneakiness.

I've been considering writing an omake on that theme, but haven't been able to come up with a story for it.

fasquardon
 
the thing about jedi falling is that they are taught to renounce all emotional ties from the age of three, and most people read that as to be "renounce all emotions" cause... you know, teenagers and kids trying to simplify things and all that, and cause they never learn to deal with emotions like healthy adults, well, they fall.
also yeah, we train the walkers to be SPECIALISTS, weak at the beginning, but sharpening them up to a nano edge.
another thing, both sith and jedi have a flawed belief structure, they were once a single group that split off and took one half of their belief system with themselves.
 
To paraphrase a wise quote:

Darth Vectivus said:
"What is better? To be born in the Light, or to overcome your Dark nature through great effort?"
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The Agents are people who have witnessed what the galaxy has to offer and considering the type of people we employ, they've seen some profound stuff. For all the Jedi like to claim that the Light Side is the natural state of the Force, if the Force is Life then it seems more inclined to the Dark Side way of thinking.

Our Agents train in an environment that is supposed to drive force sensitives to the Dark Side. It's having the knowledge of the consequences and the willpower to overcome the temptations offered that would give them greater power in exchange for loosing themselves that makes them dangerous.

For if you can overcome the whispers of the Dark Side, you're strong enough to take on the monumental challenges the Abyss Watchers seem to take on daily.
 
BTW something that's been bugging me is how rich is Ciaran?

Like on the Star Wars equivalent of the Forbs 100 or what ever that list of the top 100 rich people is whatever that's called where is she?

I mean obviously her public persona is much less rich than her real one, but still.
 
Whumbly said:
To paraphrase a wise quote:



The Agents are people who have witnessed what the galaxy has to offer and considering the type of people we employ, they've seen some profound stuff. For all the Jedi like to claim that the Light Side is the natural state of the Force, if the Force is Life then it seems more inclined to the Dark Side way of thinking.

Our Agents train in an environment that is supposed to drive force sensitives to the Dark Side. It's having the knowledge of the consequences and the willpower to overcome the temptations offered that would give them greater power in exchange for loosing themselves that makes them dangerous.

For if you can overcome the whispers of the Dark Side, you're strong enough to take on the monumental challenges the Abyss Watchers seem to take on daily.
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very true, they ARE trained by sith, and groups founded on sith. but they do not become sith, they become something else.
 
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