Dude. Why are you trying to re-open a debate that everyone else (including Dr. Snark) wants to drop?
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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)
- Thread starter Dr. Snark
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- Sci-Fi
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- star wars canon what canon tsundere dice ck2 quest actions have consequences all the credits all work and no play makes ciaran a dull girl best sister capitalism ho! despairing qm teetotaller society member gotta catch 'em all insanity looting off the rails sage dice approaching spicy sheev tsundere asajj
- Location
- Australia
Yes. There are some settings where things are black and white, others where it's shades of grey. Both are valid, not just the latter. Star Wars is a setting of black and white. Rebellion and Empire. Jedi and Sith. Light and Dark. Black and white is as inherent and necessary to Star Wars as a protagonist. It is a fallacy to think that compromise is always right, that a setting is automatically flawed because it does not work according to that rule. Star Wars is good as black and white, and making it grey does not automatically make it better. If anything, it does the opposite.
I only saw Stealthy wanting the debate dropped and Snark only told those two to stop, even saying within that same post that legitimate debate is acceptable so long as it remains chill.
- Location
- Germany
I think having a purely black and white situation limits the number and kind of stories you can tell.
It's fine for Tolkien for example, where there are very clear lines between good and evil and only the most foolish and decieved would think otherwise. But that was the world of one man and what few great stories he told in it.
Star Wars has grown far beyond being its original canon-material and demanding every book, game, quest and other media do conform to the Black/White theme would be incredibly limiting and a collosal waste of good ideas you could otherwise express on that backround.
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- Australia
The same can be said by making it conform to a grey theme, except doing so also makes certain aspects of the setting make less sense. The Light and the Dark are the biggest example of duality in the setting, but detaching good and evil from them only begs the question of "Why of all concepts are those two the only ones not affiliated with the Force?" Another question is "Why, if the Light Side brainwashes people like the Dark Side does, do we have so many mountains of more people falling to the Dark Side than falling to the Light?" Or, finally, "If the Dark Side isn't really any more evil than the Light Side, why are 99.9999999% of its users massively evil bastards and a massive majority of Light Side users are, at worst, flawed heroes?"
Black and white is what gets us things like the original trilogy. It was a great series of films, and to think that greatness is held back rather than enabled by black and white morality is wrong. It was only through that non-grey theme that we got the originals, and from it we can get other great stories.
- Location
- his hidden lair
You assume shades of grey implies equivalency. No one is saying Sith and Jedi are morally equal. No one is saying the Light side is objectively as bad as the Dark Side.
What people rail against is the idea of turning the platonic ideal of life itself into some absurdly stark dualistic system. The idea that all hate, all anger, all passion, all fear, all attachment! leads to wickedness and suffering (all while touting itself as holistically expressing life) is something people tend to reject because it's fundamentally at odds with their worldview and experiences. When one simply wants to paint a heroic tale of good triumphing over evil like LOTRs or the movies themselves, that's fine. But at it's core, Star wars is an entire setting- a rich and varied universe where such a moral simplification fails to do justice to it.
Case in point-the Jedi ideology espoused in the movies is one bereft of sympathy and empathy. Where Jedi are supposed to avoid attachment and thus avoid suffering. Sympathy is the notion of sorrow for what happened to another, empathy is the understanding of another through attachment. Even the Jedi we see fail to truly hold themselves to what's a fairly impossible ideal.
People don't like Revan just because he's one of the less objectively evil sith. It's because he helps posit the idea there are some things worth hating, some things people should feel passionate about, some things people should be angry over. When he witnessed genocide, he moved the galaxy to stop it. And then when he saw the threat the galaxy faced he went to war to save it. Because he did a lot of bad things, got a lot of people killed, and in general was a villain- but looking at his deeds you couldn't call him objectively evil or that his motives weren't sympathetic even until the end.
People like Kreia (I personally don't) not because she espouses that the Light and Dark side are the same or that the force is misunderstood, but because she had the radical idea that life should be allowed to live and grow on it's own terms and merits. 'No gods, no masters, only men' so to speak. An idea of self determination is something anyone can understand.
People like the Jedi Lords because they took the teachings of the Jedi, and combined them with the simple act of immersing themselves and integrating themselves into the galaxy. That they refused to let the tenets of the Jedi prevent them from simply living, while at the same time using those same tenets as a way of living and making better lives for others.
I respect George Lucas for creating Star Wars, and I enjoy canon while acknowledging Legends is often a clusterfuck of hundreds of incompatible plots. But at the same time, Star Wars has grown beyond Lucas' vision, and I frankly don't give a damn what he feels Star Wars should or shouldn't be by this point- it's bigger than him. Anyone who insist that Star Wars is 'supposed' to be a setting of moral absolutes can kindly go fuck themselves, because at this point Star Wars is so much more than a collection of movies with cartoon series supporting them- and anyone who insists on arbitrary labels to debate it can kindly go fuck themselves.
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- Location
- Australia
There are indeed people who say that, unfortunately.
This is after-the-fact rationalisation of people saying "The Jedi we see the Jedi are like this, this, and this, therefore they must also be like this, even though we don't see it." Compassion is a core tenet of the Jedi and we see that expressed in the forms of sympathy and empathy by them. The former has too many examples to count, and of the latter, Luminara's talk with Ahsoka about the pain of losing a master comes to mind. The empathy is accompanied by teachings of non-attachment, but it is not absent.
This is hostile and not conducive to healthy debate. I please ask that you calm down.
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- Location
- Tromso, Norway.
Hell, Anakin explicitly said that Jedi are encouraged to feel compassion.
lordchaos99
(I have left SV)
Only in the Six Movies is the setting Light and Dark, and even then Luke straddled the line complete with Green saber which at the time was ambiguous in it's alignment (Red being Evil and Blue being Good at the time of filming).
Even Disney is basically going 'haha nope, Grey is a thing. Only Lucas thought that and he out'
"But detaching sweet and sour from them only begs the question of "Why of all concepts are those two the only ones not affiliated with the Force""
Which side does the concept of acting kind lie on? Neither of them, since one is passion and the other serenity and a social action is neither but can be motivated or influenced by both.
Which side does the concept of murder lie on? Neither of them, both sides are just as capable.
We see people Fall into the Light all the time. Revan, Bastilla, Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker, to name a few. Hell in Force Awakens we literally hear Kylo Ren complain the Light Side is tempting him.
No-one said the Dark Side and the Light are equal forces morally, we are saying that one is not Defined by Good and the other Defined by Evil. Yes, the Dark Side trends towards evil acts but the Light can be oppressive just the same.
It was Light Side Masters who had the capability to strip people of their Force Sensitivity. And it was Light Side Masters who removed a man's memories, sentencing him to what they hoped was a death of identity.
Yes, the Dark Side and the Sith need careful checks and balances lest they go on a rampage, but an unchecked Jedi Council will paralyze itself in meditation. One is objectively worse than the other, but neither are ideal or Good.
Who?
And yes, the Jedi feel compassion and empathy. But those traits are not of the LIGHT SIDE. Just as the Sith are not purely motivated only by Dark Side concepts.
- Location
- Australia
The Light Side, obviously. That has always explicitly been about being nice to other people and helping them. It's why the Light Side gets healing while the Dark Side gets only an inferior facsimile of it. Kindness and compassion are part of the Light Side.
Non-lethal ways of removing a threat is not something I see as particularly grey. Certainly I don't think of Aang as morally grey for taking away Ozai's ability to bend instead of killing him. The memory removal was more severe than removing Force sensitivity, but ultimately it was still a step above simple execution.
Yes they are. That's part of what makes the Light Side the good side. Where did you get that they aren't? Do you have a source?
Even if you argue that the two sides are separated from morality, you cannot say that the Light Side does not embody positive emotions and the Dark Side negative emotions.
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Akasha
The Only Truth
- Location
- 「̛̛́́ ͏̨҉̕͏ ͏̶̴」
I'm wary of stepping into this, because the QM apparently sees my attempts at debate as more hostile than people throwing 'lol so salty huhuhu' as their only arguments, so I'm just going to stay right here and watch this train going, and use my Force Telekinesis to keep it on rails. If the impending trainwreck brings the Automatic Oppression Platforms mods, I won't be the one infracted. NOT THIS TIME. I HAVE BROKEN THE SYSTEM BY REMOVING MYSELF FROM THE DEBATE ENTIRELY. LIFE HACK.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
*waves hand*
You guys do not feel the need to continue this argument.
You guys do not feel the need to continue this argument.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Show don't tell.
Ahsoka is a Padawan that doesn't really fit into the order, nor does Anakin. Luminara is stated to be one of the few Jedi able to easily connect with others at least according to Quinlan Vos.
These are examples, but they are not the rule that we see, nor are they the whole of the order, which espouses
As to the idea that canon says Light is good Dark is bad welllll that was George Lucas and... to be quite honest he's a shit writer and director, though he has nice concepts.
Yeah I'm probably triggering someone with that, but I think he's really bad, hell the best of the original trilogy was the one he had NOTHING to do with which is kinda indicative of his abilities.
Kindness can be shown in other ways giving others strength the push to confront the threat to stand and defend them and more. Kindness is a very very vague statement, not one that is bound to the light.
Not really, I'd much rather be executed then BRAIN WASHED into submission thank you.
Kill me please, but let me die as me.
Where are you getting yours? The Light as the Jedi understand it is peace, harmony stuff like that.
Being nice is not part of it.
These are the codes
Neither of these tell you to be an ass or nice they tell truths, neither is wrong, though one is morally better.
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lordchaos99
(I have left SV)
The Light Side is the side without passion. The Light Side doesn't get to be the ones who embody 'Feeling and understanding how others Feel' if it also fundamentally rejects Emotion on a base level.
You can be a Light Side User and have kindness, you can be a Dark Side User and be calm.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force
Stripping someone of Force Sensitivity is not a Good act. It is an Act. On a spiritual level you willingly and methodically cripple someone. To a Jedi such a loss is greater than losing a hand and their sight, so to the Jedi using this technique is roughly equivalent to chopping someones hand off and blinding them.
If you wish to argue otherwise, you have stepped out of Black and White. On average yes, I'll accept it as a punishment, I will not accept it as a capital-G Good act.
You don't get to be the Good Side if you also use Identity-Murder techniques, because no. It is NOT better than execution. I would rather be killed, than have my identity killed and a new one created by my enemy for their own purposes. Revan regaining all his old memories was a failure of the technique, and so doesn't count on a Moral level, Attempted Murder is just as morally wrong as Murder.
The Jedi Council tried to commit murder and then puppet the corpse to win a war. I'm fairly sure that's some kind of War Crime.
But no, I'm getting heated again. I won't participate any more on morality.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I do find this to be the problem, the old code, the one that was used before dealt with these issues
Emotion YET peace
Ignorance YET knowledge
Passion YET serenity
Chaos YET Harmony
Death YET the Force.
It acknowledges the good and the bad, this is what the light side should be and what the Jedi should be understanding and choosing to follow the harder yet morally better path.
Its not the best path that I give to the Grey Jedi which blends both, but this works much better for a larger population.
Same.
- Location
- Germany
I think it derailed a bit. I just wanted to say that I consider SW a better setting when it allows for some moral ambiguity between Light and Dark Side users and Karugus made that point better than I could.
Then it descended into the usual "How bad/good are Jedi" debate.
Then it descended into the usual "How bad/good are Jedi" debate.
Akasha
The Only Truth
- Location
- 「̛̛́́ ͏̨҉̕͏ ͏̶̴」
Y'know, I just can't stop myself from pointing out one tiny little thing. If we use Revan as an argument, we have to use KoTOR 1 and 2 as arguments. There, you get Light Side Points for doing undoubtedly good things. Healing the wounded, saving people, reuniting families, getting rid of monsters and bandits/mercenaries plaguing the innocent(preferably in a peaceful way), calming down a Fallen catgirl Jedi drowning in despair because she thought she killed her master, trusting others and forgiving them, paying off their debts... Acts of pure kindness. Kreia repeatedly tells you off for doing it, because, according to her, kindness to others makes them weak. Agreeing with her gives you Dark Side Points. So does doing 'necessary' evils. That'd make the acts of removing memories and Force Sensitivity DARK, not LIGHT. That, in turn, means the Council of that time was not a reflection of the Light Side. They were on the verge of Falling, as proven by Atris.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
That actually is mostly due to Bioware bungling the system, what they constantly try to do is make it so that being light or dark isn't always good or bad. A prominent example they tried in Jade Empire was the Open and Closed fist. Open fist may seem morally good, but the resolutions can weaken everyone, Closed fist may make you seem like an ass, but it can strengthen people and community.
The problem is Bioware really sucks at implementing this so when ever they try for a moral system you get a black and white choice between asshole and paragon, with the only good endings hidden behind being a goodie.
Its not wrong and I'd always choose light side choice cause I'm too much of a weak hearted bitch to be an ass, but I do understand what they set out to do.
Its a bit more obvious in that game as I remember as you will loose out on money and other things you kinda need. From her perspective it does make some sense even if I disagree.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Damn, was raring to write a response to Andres, but it seems like that well of arguments has already gone and dried up.
Well, in the interests of a less confrontational but still productive topic- what do we think we, as a hidden third party in Ciaran and friends can do to help the Jedi get through the cultural inertia that's been hampering them with the current setup? Ideally, without being fingered for it.
Preventing the Jedi from being forced into generalship, helping the Sentinels, and just having Ciaran keep the council on their collective toes is a good start- but even if we pull things off perfectly in the future, there's going to be a lot of turmoil for the Jedi in the near future. How do we screw with the resulting soul searching to ensure a good outcome for us (and thus the galaxy natch)? Do we ensure some of the more reactionary masters (I'm looking at you Mace!) aren't in a position to influence the outcome? Do we try and subtly sway their thinking? Disgrace those who have an outlook and agenda inimical to us? All of the above?
Discuss.
Well, in the interests of a less confrontational but still productive topic- what do we think we, as a hidden third party in Ciaran and friends can do to help the Jedi get through the cultural inertia that's been hampering them with the current setup? Ideally, without being fingered for it.
Preventing the Jedi from being forced into generalship, helping the Sentinels, and just having Ciaran keep the council on their collective toes is a good start- but even if we pull things off perfectly in the future, there's going to be a lot of turmoil for the Jedi in the near future. How do we screw with the resulting soul searching to ensure a good outcome for us (and thus the galaxy natch)? Do we ensure some of the more reactionary masters (I'm looking at you Mace!) aren't in a position to influence the outcome? Do we try and subtly sway their thinking? Disgrace those who have an outlook and agenda inimical to us? All of the above?
Discuss.
- Location
- Australia
Eh. Aside from some exceptions that are destined to change the galaxy (Anakin, for instance), we should just leave the Jedi alone. Their stagnancy and focus on passivity means they aren't active and doing as much good in the galaxy as they could be. That's bad for the galaxy, but it's good for us, as it gives us more freedom to do what we want. If they start becoming more active, who knows how many superweapons, force sects, and Sith ruins they might keep our hands away from?
- Location
- his hidden lair
That's a bit of a risk to be fair, but I'm worried about how the Jedi will react if we let them digest the fact a Sith Lord was sitting right beneath their noses this entire time, and would have won were it not for those meddling kids. We're not going to be able to cover up all of Sidious' plots, even if we wanted to.
That's an environment ripe for recrimination and paranoia, and those aren't something we necessarily want the Jedi to indulge it, the Republic is going to be shaken up enough as it is, if the Jedi are inclined to witch hunt for Sith and subversives- they're not going to make the situation any easier. I like passive Jedi, but if they're going to be brought out of passivity by a shakeup, I want it to be on our terms.
- Location
- USA
Getting Skywalker on the Council would go a long way to improve the general disposition of the Jedi over time. He's very popular with the younglings and the Republic as a whole.
We probably burned bridges with most of the Council with the Darra thing, but Yoda might still be netural, if weary of us. If we can convince him of anything, the rest of the Jedi will follow.
As for the Palpatine problem... I can't really think if a way to integrate the Jedi into our plans without major suspicion coming onto us. It might be worth it to just assassinate him and bury the Sith angle completely, we would still be suspect but that's better than putting them into full paranoia witch hunt mode.
We probably burned bridges with most of the Council with the Darra thing, but Yoda might still be netural, if weary of us. If we can convince him of anything, the rest of the Jedi will follow.
As for the Palpatine problem... I can't really think if a way to integrate the Jedi into our plans without major suspicion coming onto us. It might be worth it to just assassinate him and bury the Sith angle completely, we would still be suspect but that's better than putting them into full paranoia witch hunt mode.
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
- Location
- The other side of the mirror
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
- Location
- Australia
Getting Anakin on the Council is actually a supremely easy thing to do for us. All Jedi Masters are part of the Council, and you automatically become a Jedi Master after successfully training a Padawan to the point that they become a Jedi Knight. We just need to fuck up Offee's shit when she starts pulling it so that Ahsoka doesn't leave the Order, then it's good times from there.
Bones
Don't look behind you.
- Location
- Behind you.
Being a Jedi Master does not make you a member of the High Council.