Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

[Torgamous]

I'd settle for neutral on the subject, to be fair. Can't be too obvious.

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"Pro-kryptonite" and "kryptonite agnostic" are mostly interchangeable since it's a legitimately better power source. What we want to avoid is a Department of Energy that'll kill any threats to oil's hegemony.

This being politics, though, asking for more than the minimum we'd be satisfied with so we have something to compromise away is more likely to get us what we want than starting from the compromise position.

I'm sorry, did you just suggest sending our 11 year old girl out into the middle of a battle?

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To be fair, she could probably already qualify for Batgirl, and we're not going to be keeping the hostages we've already rescued outside.

 

[King crimson]

So I've edited in some of the additional information. You now get a quick blurb about William Helm getting murdered by a cat-man and that whole area now burns. In-universe just what went down is unknown but I figured some out of character knowledge that there is a fourth Intergang hero unit on the field (Bruno, Killgrave, Blindspot and whoever the cat-man is) would be helpful to your plans.

Aro de fuego translates to "fire ring" and is the title of the Spanish translation of Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire song. The most relevant thing is the updated results (you've got confirmation that there is a ton of people at St. Martin's Island).

It's not my best work but I hope you enjoy it. And yes William Helm is an original character who shows up just to die and to make a bad Wilhelm scream joke (William Helm becomes Will Helm and he screams). Let me know your thoughts on things and feel free to incorporate the new information into your plans. Just be aware that troop position can change.

 

[Swedish15]

I found it funny.

 

[jonasquinn]

If it becomes common knowledge that Superman is weak to kryptonite, we've gained something pretty significant to Lex. Especially if we've sold off a lot of kryptonite before then.

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Yes but if that becomes Kryptonite main claim to fame before we can make it widespread it's going to make our lives far more difficult

I suppose. Then again, who's going to be running around this battlefield with a Geiger counter?

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Nobody but with all this new technology being used people are probably going to investigate to make sure there's no unfortunate side effects

I really think we can get away with saying "much like gasoline, this material DOES have military applications when adapted with proprietary technology, and we used them in a life-threatening emergency, but as used in automobiles it is inherently safe."

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We probably could but it would still give our opponents ammunition against us that we don't need to give them

I mean there are a lot of different approaches here and we have a lot of people we could use. If we turn Centennial Park into a fortress-garden for the duration of the emergency, with Poison Ivy in control, we'd want to leave a lot of the prisoners there and interrogate them in the field. On the other hand, our experts in things like military technology would all be elsewhere and the reports would have to be forwarded to us.

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Isn't forwarding information gained from the interrogation automatic?

Hm. One complication. What if one of the mecha comes after Centennial Park because it's the place where a bunch of their people are pinned down?

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Well in that case it's drawing one of the mecha away from the high priority targets, whereas taking the prisoners to our tower just gives Intergang even more of a reason to attack it, and our heavy hitters would probably be really helped by having nature itself fighting it the mecha as well

 

[Torgamous]

This cat is an affront to our nature theme. I don't care if we need Mari on a mecha, she's taking him down.

 

[Negation]

• Queensland has no Intergang forces found in it, no losses
• Hobb's Gate found to have Intergang forces in it. 50 stealth vehicles and 100 spy drones destroyed. Hobb's Gate has been set on fire and is burning
• Suicide Slums found to have Intergang forces in it. 50 stealth vehicles and 100 spy drones destroyed. Suicide Slums has been set on fire and is burning
• Metropolis Harbor confirmed to have Intergang in it. Likely to have over 200 different forces there including powerful units which are nearby. Combat was not engaged in.
• St. Martin's Island confirmed to have Intergang in it. Has around 1000 units in it at minimum. Combat was not engaged in.
• Bakerline has no Intergang presence found in it, no losses
• Park Ridge found to have no Intergang presence in it besides those in Centennial Park, 43 spy drones lost

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I think the Harbour needs to be secured or the Metropolis economy is fucked as would relief efforts.

Len and other troops would need to be redeployed with freeze grenades to assist firefighters in putying out the flames and protecting firefighters.

 

[jonasquinn]

Well that seems like some information we really needed to know

Also @King crimson I'm getting really confused about the layout of the city here, is Suicide Slum in Hobb's Gate?

 

[Negation]

Things get really Macho for us.

 

[King crimson]

Also @King crimson I'm getting really confused about the layout of the city here, is Suicide Slum in Hobb's Gate?

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Yes in the area nearest to New Troy (Suicide slums are on the west side of Hobb's gate).

And to clear up other potential points of confusion, the Metropolis General Hospital is in Bakerline, Centennial Park is in Park Ridge, and the harbor is in St. Martin's Island like how LexCorp Tower and the Daily Planet are in New Troy.

Edit: City Hall and STAR labs are also in New Troy

 

[Simon_Jester]

Gonna have to think about the new info...

I'd settle for neutral on the subject, to be fair. Can't be too obvious.

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The bar for "too obvious for American politics circa 2000" is high enough that I think we can limbo under it comfortably with a clearly pro-kryptonite but not LexCorp affiliated Secretary of Energy. There are damn good reasons to favor kryptonite power as long as it isn't objectively proven to be dangerous.

My expert advisor says.....

Heads. Bitch gets to deal with The Wall.

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Can we cut the unclarity and misogyny?

Also, she's 11, and optics means she needs an adult. Seriously, we get away with Mari because she's a known actress, putting a 11 year old as our speaker raises a shitload of questions.

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Marie Dahl you mean? Remember, Mari != Marie. But seriously, yeah, Cassandra can probably do this but we need an adult or two in the room as visible "muscle." It's sort of a mirror image of this problem:

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If it was Marie I'd be asking her to play up the innocence and "someone could get hurt" and "we can help you" angles. For Cassandra I'm relying more in incisiveness and living lie detector powers.

St. Martin's Island is an island (not sure if it's actual or artificial). I should be able to talk a bit over the weekend if you want more details and want to go more in depth with the map (Like how Stryker's Island is not part of Metropolis but it is near it so the map could include it if you wanted to).

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I can accommodate Stryker's easily. We'll worry about that later. I'll get in touch when I've got headspace and energy for it.

The situation is more or less as follows. Leonard secured everyone after murdering all of Intergang in the area. He then talked to Aaron Jase and Jenet Klyburn to get an idea of what was going on and how to proceed going forward. He told them that they should head to LexCorp Tower since they'll be safe there. Aaron Jase has refused to move and has refused for the police to move since he feels that they are necessary for securing the labs. The actual STAR labs employees have agreed to move though. As such Leonard then contemplated that Mick hasn't been doing well with how his pyromania has been acting up and so he wanted to send him off to go do something else. He then called Mercy and gave a report before getting his marching orders. Leonard then carried out those orders which were deliberately left open ended to account for the plans you make this turn. The scientists and workers were escorted to LexCorp tower (and you can move them elsewhere if you want) but where Mick and Leonard will go and what the remaining forces will do is up to you (what your plan ultimately does to get them moving in a specific direction is what the orders were).

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Mmhm. I see.

"Pro-kryptonite" and "kryptonite agnostic" are mostly interchangeable since it's a legitimately better power source. What we want to avoid is a Department of Energy that'll kill any threats to oil's hegemony.

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Personally I want someone who won't say "oh no kryptonite might be radioactive let's stick to wind turbines," though. Kryptonite power will have some of the problems of nuclear power in real life just from being, well, green glowing rocks.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@King crimson

Do we have nearly enough freeze grenades to be effective at firefighting on this scale?

 

[Torgamous]

@King crimson

Do we have nearly enough freeze grenades to be effective at firefighting on this scale?

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Maybe we could rig the cold engine for that instead of exploding?

 

[Night_stalker]

Can we cut the unclarity and misogyny?

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Uh, if you mean callign Waller, The Wall, that's a nickname she's used.

But yeah, send him to Waller.

Marie Dahl you mean? Remember, Mari != Marie. But seriously, yeah, Cassandra can probably do this but we need an adult or two in the room as visible "muscle." It's sort of a mirror image of this problem:

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Roughly, but yes.

 

[King crimson]

Can we cut the unclarity and misogyny?

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I actually would like to get a bit of clarity on this statement. Bitch is a really weird word because it's historically had misogynistic connotations, has entered the popular vernacular with radically different meanings at different times (Shakespeare, Hemingway and Elton John have all used the word differently and we aren't even talking about the impact pop culture has had on the word) and it has been reclaimed by feminists to mean something differently. The word itself is a quagmire of meanings and implications that is dependent on who is saying it and about what and what's going on.

As such if you've got a problem with the use of the word elaborate on what your issue is and expand it so that people don't get confused and get why it bothered you.

@King crimson

Do we have nearly enough freeze grenades to be effective at firefighting on this scale?

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No. The fire would spread faster than you could freeze it and you'd need to make more.

Maybe we could rig the cold engine for that instead of exploding?

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It'd still detonate but you could rig it for firefighting specifically. It's still the bomb option you are just using the bomb differently (the converted cold engine is basically going to be a massive high powered freeze bomb that will cover a large area).

 

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe we could rig the cold engine for that instead of exploding?

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I suspect we'd cause a lot of problems in the process (like, say, freezing thousands of people caught outside the fires but inside the zone of effect)

I actually would like to get a bit of clarity on this statement. Bitch is a really weird word because it's historically had misogynistic connotations, has entered the popular vernacular with radically different meanings at different times (Shakespeare, Hemingway and Elton John have all used the word differently and we aren't even talking about the impact pop culture has had on the word) and it has been reclaimed by feminists to mean something differently. The word itself is a quagmire of meanings and implications that is dependent on who is saying it and about what and what's going on.

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My objection is generally to it being used as a dismissive or slur towards a woman who, like Amanda Waller, is well known for scheming, force of character, and/or a certain amount of malice. It is, in this context, a fairly straightforward denigration of her. That is one of the most common usages in the present day in casual speech, and it's the one that applies here.

While there are specialty cases (e.g. feminists reclaiming the term) where it's not an issue... I'm pretty sure this doesn't qualify among them.

No. The fire would spread faster than you could freeze it and you'd need to make more.

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I mean, I was thinking "could it even make a meaningful dent" not "could one man's freeze grenades put out the whole thing... but this is the answer I expected anyway.

It'd still detonate but you could rig it for firefighting specifically. It's still the bomb option you are just using the bomb differently (the converted cold engine is basically going to be a massive high powered freeze bomb that will cover a large area).

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The problem then being that we'd freeze a ton of stuff solid, not all of it part of the target.

 

[Torgamous]

My objection is generally to it being used as a dismissive or slur towards a woman who, like Amanda Waller, is well known for scheming, force of character, and/or a certain amount of malice. It is, in this context, a fairly straightforward denigration of her. That is one of the most common usages in the present day in casual speech, and it's the one that applies here.

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I'm pretty sure "bitch" was referring to Killgrave? Otherwise the sentence would be "Amanda Waller gets to deal with Amanda Waller."

 

[King crimson]

My objection is generally to it being used as a dismissive or slur towards a woman who, like Amanda Waller, is well known for scheming, force of character, and/or a certain amount of malice. It is, in this context, a fairly straightforward denigration of her. That is one of the most common usages in the present day in casual speech, and it's the one that applies here.

While there are specialty cases (e.g. feminists reclaiming the term) where it's not an issue... I'm pretty sure this doesn't qualify among them.

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It's still a bit odd because the person being referred to as a "bitch" was Killgrave. Is it still a problem when referring to a male individual?

 

[Simon_Jester]

@King crimson

The thing that bugs me here, and this may be an issue with the combat engine, is that I'm trying to assign stealth vehicles to just scout the enemy and get some fucking clue of vaguely how many of them there are... and they just all get trivially slaughtered.

I get why the drones get shot down in droves, because the enemy has some futuristic AA tech and the drones have to fly low and slow to get good imagery of stuff on the ground I assume.

But what's the point of a stealth vehicle that so reliably, whenever the enemy is nearby, trundles right into ambushes and gets blown apart?

Does your combat engine have a mechanic for units that actively try to avoid contact with other units and are only interested in observing those units or detecting them? Because it seems like attempts to send out a scouting force just auto-resolve as a pitched battle between the scouts and whoever they find, with the result that the scouts get cut to shreds.

Forgive me if I'm being salty about this, but it's kind of frustrating. It feels like we've got hundreds and hundreds of units that are effectively useless becuse on the one hand they can't fight well enough to survive combat, and on the other hand they can't escape fighting despite their special ability being designed entirely around disengaging from combat by activating their cloaking device or whatever.

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EDIT: It's like, I give an order like "Scout the area for signs of Intergang forces and activities. Avoid combat at unfavorable odds. Stealth vehicles engage if they see a good opportunity. "

And all I get back is the Wilhelm Scream.

It's still a bit odd because the person being referred to as a "bitch" was Killgrave. Is it still a problem when referring to a male individual?

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Ehhh, then you have the baggage associated with it typically applying to men as a slur against their masculinity, accusing them of effeminacy, homosexuality-as-sign-of-lowliness, and so on.

 

[King crimson]

@King crimson

The thing that bugs me here, and this may be an issue with the combat engine, is that I'm trying to assign stealth vehicles to just scout the enemy and get some fucking clue of vaguely how many of them there are... and they just all get trivially slaughtered.

I get why the drones get shot down in droves, because the enemy has some futuristic AA tech and the drones have to fly low and slow to get good imagery of stuff on the ground I assume.

But what's the point of a stealth vehicle that so reliably, whenever the enemy is nearby, trundles right into ambushes and gets blown apart?

Does your combat engine have a mechanic for units that actively try to avoid contact with other units and are only interested in observing those units or detecting them? Because it seems like attempts to send out a scouting force just auto-resolve as a pitched battle between the scouts and whoever they find, with the result that the scouts get cut to shreds.

Forgive me if I'm being salty about this, but it's kind of frustrating. It feels like we've got hundreds and hundreds of units that are effectively useless becuse on the one hand they can't fight well enough to survive combat, and on the other hand they can't escape fighting despite their special ability being designed entirely around disengaging from combat by activating their cloaking device or whatever.

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I do have a mechanic for units avoiding combat. If you don't mind me noting this but the only units that got killed en masse were the ones in Suicide Slum's/Hobb's Gate (despite you having encountered more units elsewhere). The enemy there specifically had a trait to sniff out intrigue based units and you got low rolls. You got unlucky this round which is why things went poorly. It won't usually go like this when using stealth units.

It's fine to get a bit salty but by no means was it trivial and there are ways to use stealth units effectively. You'll just also deal with having things go poorly sometimes (you had your units spread thing and basically had them checking an area with a strong anti-intrigue unit in it.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I do have a mechanic for units avoiding combat. If you don't mind me noting this but the only units that got killed en masse were the ones in Suicide Slum's/Hobb's Gate (despite you having encountered more units elsewhere). The enemy there specifically had a trait to sniff out intrigue based units and you got low rolls. You got unlucky this round which is why things went poorly. It won't usually go like this when using stealth units.

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OK, that clarifies things a lot. It just seemed as if they got splattered the same way they would have if they'd been ordered to make a frontal assault, which made me wonder if it was an issue with how the combat system was set up.

There's a lot of combat systems that just don't handle reconnaissance very well and treat every military operation like a pitched battle to the death. You're typically quite a bit smarter than that, but for all I knew this was a largely untested alpha version of the large scale combat rules, in which such bugs might still be present.

 

[Captain.Cat]

Alright, It's not much but I added the losses LexCorp took while scouting the city in the list I made earlier.

 

[Torgamous]

(you had your units spread thing and basically had them checking an area with a strong anti-intrigue unit in it.

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Does this mean spreading our units less thin would make them more effective at stealth?

 

[King crimson]

OK, that clarifies things a lot. It just seemed as if they got splattered the same way they would have if they'd been ordered to make a frontal assault, which made me wonder if it was an issue with how the combat system was set up.

There's a lot of combat systems that just don't handle reconnaissance very well and treat every military operation like a pitched battle to the death. You're typically quite a bit smarter than that, but for all I knew this was a largely untested alpha version of the large scale combat rules, in which such bugs might still be present.

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This is the beta version of the combat system if we're being totally honest (it's been tested and it functions but it might need some polish and number tweaking).

With tactics that involve sneaking I have intrigue rolls for perception (knowing something is around) and then for detection (Knowing where something is so you can engage it in combat). Furthermore the stealth vehicles could avoid disengagement penalties if they weren't in a tight space which would have meant that if even a single one survived combat it would have escaped. Unfortunately in this case knocking down buildings and setting things on fire did enough to cause things to be considered a tight space which negated the disengagement bonus. Basically everything that could go wrong did.

I'm still tuning it though and I might need to make the stealth mechanics more complicated even though I am loathe to make the math more complicated.

Does this mean spreading our units less thin would make them more effective at stealth?

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No. It would have made you more effective at combat which would have helped you escape once you got detected which would have allowed some to escape. With the same rolls and units you likely would have been caught no matter how many units you sent regardless of if it was less or more but with more units you could have survived the fighting and inflicted damage back more readily rather than getting a one sided wipe.

Size of a stealth group is meant to be a choice between maximizing stealth for what was sent versus fighting capability if you do get caught.

 

[jonasquinn]

@King crimson could we maybe get an updated unit list so that we know what we're working with?

Also what is Intergangs morale looking like? Between them losing more than half their men, a hero unit and one of their mecha as well as having another one be critically damaged in the opening salvo I imagine it must be pretty low

That's not even considering that the military has just turned up and that they're losing morale at twice the speed they normally would

 

[Gumiho]

@King crimson could we maybe get an updated unit list so that we know what we're working with?

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@Captain.Cat crunched the numbers of ours and intergangs remaining forces if that what you after. As below.

Not sure how helpful this will be but I made a basic list which should give a mostly accurate number for what losses both Intergang and LexCorp suffered as well what they have left at this time. I hope it helps and I apologize in advance for any errors I might have made while doing the math.


Intergang forces: losses and remaining units

2,211 thugs defeated (1661 killed, 218 captured, 332 fled*)
1,789 thugs remaining

213 Power armor thugs Defeated (174 killed, 17 captured, 22 fled)
287 Power armor thugs remaining

15 Alien Tech ATV's defeated (14 destroyed, 1 captured)
25 Alien Tech ATV's remaining

1 Mechs (1 destoryed, 1 Critically damage but can still fight.)
3 Mechs remaining


LexCorp Forces: losses and remaining units

254 LexCorp security forces defeated (254 killed)
1,756‬ security forces remaining

137 LexCorp stealth vehicles defeated (137 destroyed)
363 stealth vehicles remaining

121 LexCorp armored vehicles defeated (121 destroyed)
379 armored vehicles Remaining

670 automated combat craft defeated (670 destroyed)
380 ‬‬ automated combat craft remaining

650 drone fighters defeated
??? remaining**

431 basic spy drones defeated (431 destroyed)
1,069‬ basic spy drones remaining

2 serial peacemaking defeated (2 killed)
318 serial peacemaking remaining

*When it was said that they fled I am assuming that they are gone for the rest of the battle, unlike the ones which are said escape to continue the fight.
**I am unsure where to look for the Drone fighters to see how many we still have left at this time, assuming we do in fact have any left. They way they are listed separately makes me think they are not the same as the automated combat craft.

Edited: Updated to include losses LexCorp took while scouting the city.

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