Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

What sort of tone should I shoot for with this Quest?

  • Go as crack fueled as you can we want Ambush Bug, Snowflame and Duckseid

    Votes: 30 7.7%
  • Go for something silly but keep a little bit of reason

    Votes: 31 7.9%
  • Adam West Camp

    Votes: 27 6.9%
  • Balanced as all things should be

    Votes: 195 50.0%
  • Mostly serious but not self-involvedly so

    Votes: 73 18.7%
  • Dark and brooding but with light at the end of the tunnel

    Votes: 12 3.1%
  • We're evil and we don't want anyone to be happy

    Votes: 22 5.6%

  • Total voters
    390
  • Poll closed .
[X] [Whale] Refuse Whale's deal and do not give any proof as if he releases the information he has nothing is keeping Whale safe anymore
[X] [Whale] Refuse Whale's deal and have Lady Vic continue to attempt to assassinate him
 
[X] [Whale] Accept Whale's deal and give him proof that you personally are calling off the assassin

Okay what's with all the pride? We have no way of knowing we will be safe if Tobias releases his blackmail. As much as it galls us, we don't have much choice here. Can we personally meet him face to face for the spray?

Also Bane is more trouble than he's worth as he already has a murder boner for Batman. Plus what would we use him for anyway? The man is too 'loud'.

Some of those guys who are being gathered up for Flash seem to be pretty useful like Jonah, if we can swing them to our side.
 
[X] [Whale] Accept Whale's deal and give him proof that you personally are calling off the assassin
 
This is pretty problematic.
Agreeing to the deal gives Lex no guarantee that Whale isn't hiding more information to blackmail him in the future. If it worked once, it will work again.
Refusing the deal gives Whale enough rationale to fuck up LexCorp just for the sake of spite. Of course, LexCorp can play the Russian denial game / whataboutism, but that's something that works better for nations rather than corporations.
Let's say the information is revealed. The main subjects in this case are the government, the businesses, and the population.
1) Government: DEO had information on Lex possibly spying on people and killing his father. The agencies could probably block any big case, for favors. That means more projects for Eiling, Waller etc. Manageable. Of course, can't discount some especially truth-searching attorneys wanting to pursue LexCorp cases regardless.
2) Businesses: Rumors like this are poison for business. Expect stocks to plummet, and deals with good guys, like Wayne, to fall through. Might put us under Wayne's radar once again, confirming to him that rather than Nygma turning over a new leaf, he joined a whole corporation of crime.
3) Population: After the Galaxy Edge debacle, Lex sort of has a "double jeopardy" regarding being a target of evil rumors. Plus, the obvious good PR from helping to protect Metropolis, for handling the police situation etc. Even our dealings with Whale were towards deescalation of crime in the city.

Why was Whale targeted by LexCorp, anyway? To cover loose ends? If so, than he has already SHOWN that he is a loose end, and must be neutralized as an information source one way or the other. If it was a mistake, then call them off and make peace. Of course, that means the whole deal about "controlling crime, since you can never fully purge it" was useless.
 
Recent searches had revealed that something from Zamaron was headed towards earth.

Well hello, Star Sapphire. Will it choose Carol again, or is her mostly moving on from Hal make it reconsider its host?


He tries to steal the Sword of Beowulf before it is revealed that it was replaced with a fake the Flash foils him.

Good, now when it is revealed to be fake we can say that it was probably Abra's work.

Having time-travel so common here complicates matters. Every victory or defeat can be retconned, metaknowledge becomes even more unreliable, and we may have active enemies we did not even encounter yet.

I am also a little worried about Flash now. His enemies, in which I mean Rogues, had a code and didn't cause unnecessary casualties. And we took Snart from that equation.
 
Burn this quest down if we have to Im not going to accept Whale being equal of Lex FUCKING Luthor. this man isnt Ra.
It's not about him being the equal of anyone.

It's about whether Lex Luthor is the kind of person who throws good money after bad.

For whatever reasons, we decided that killing Whale was better than anything else we could have done (e.g. giving him an ultimatum to get out of town, bribing him to get out of town). We hired a pretty good assassin. She gave it a good shot. She failed. Whale is alerted, vengeful, and afraid. It turns out that Whale was able to exploit loopholes in our defenses and get information that could seriously hurt us. Now he's trying to barter that for his life.

Why do we want him dead badly enough to accept a major setback? Why did we want him dead that badly in the first place? I doubt many of us would have voted to assassinate Whale in the first place if we didn't expect to get away with it cleanly. Now we're almost sure not to be able to get away with it cleanly.

There are reasons for Luthor to change his mind about killing someone other than "this person is my equal." Luthor's presumed superiority does not necessarily have to express itself through killing everyone.

Well, lets use Bane as a Deniable Asset and use him till he breaks like Bito.
We... never really used Bito. Bito is still out there.

Also, Bane clearly has a very great level of pride, and a fixation on destroying Batman that would seem weird* if we weren't playing a character who's about to do one of the things you proverbially do not do, and tug on Superman's cape.

We may be able to get him to do things for us as a mercenary, but there are going to be sharp limits.
_____________________

*(I'd have expected him to only develop such an obsession after arriving in Gotham, or at least the United States)

We provide Bito with funding and buy his Tech to reverse engineer, once done we have Lady Vic claim his bounty.
A reasonable approach- though as we just saw, it's possible for Lady Vic, or any assassin, to simply fail.

We chat with Count Vertigo. Since we already knows what he wants OOC, we send Bane after the Queen. Problem is how to kill him afterwards before he hits Gotham and Bats capture him.
The queen? Run that by me again?

[] [Whale] Accept Whale's deal and give him proof that you personally are calling off the assassin

Okay what's with all the pride? We have no way of knowing we will be safe if Tobias releases his blackmail. As much as it galls us, we don't have much choice here. Can we personally meet him face to face for the spray?
That exposes us to his men and gives him a plausible opportunity for revenge.

Also Bane is more trouble than he's worth as he already has a murder boner for Batman. Plus what would we use him for anyway? The man is too 'loud'.
If we wanted to use him as a commando leader of a mercenary unit, it'd probably work, especially since his men are so well armed. The problem is simply that he's too proud to work for us- we'd have to do something like integrate his men into our PMC and put him in charge of that, I think.

Some of those guys who are being gathered up for Flash seem to be pretty useful like Jonah, if we can swing them to our side.
Attempts to sway Jonah Hex to the Luthors' side would probably have been more an issue for Leland or Leonardo. :p

This is pretty problematic.
Agreeing to the deal gives Lex no guarantee that Whale isn't hiding more information to blackmail him in the future. If it worked once, it will work again.
Refusing the deal gives Whale enough rationale to fuck up LexCorp just for the sake of spite. Of course, LexCorp can play the Russian denial game / whataboutism, but that's something that works better for nations rather than corporations.
Let's say the information is revealed. The main subjects in this case are the government, the businesses, and the population.
1) Government: DEO had information on Lex possibly spying on people and killing his father. The agencies could probably block any big case, for favors. That means more projects for Eiling, Waller etc. Manageable. Of course, can't discount some especially truth-searching attorneys wanting to pursue LexCorp cases regardless.
2) Businesses: Rumors like this are poison for business. Expect stocks to plummet, and deals with good guys, like Wayne, to fall through. Might put us under Wayne's radar once again, confirming to him that rather than Nygma turning over a new leaf, he joined a whole corporation of crime.
3) Population: After the Galaxy Edge debacle, Lex sort of has a "double jeopardy" regarding being a target of evil rumors. Plus, the obvious good PR from helping to protect Metropolis, for handling the police situation etc. Even our dealings with Whale were towards deescalation of crime in the city.
Yes, but other crimes like "spying on everyone with a cell phone" and "having nuclear missiles" are harder to explain.

Why was Whale targeted by LexCorp, anyway? To cover loose ends? If so, than he has already SHOWN that he is a loose end, and must be neutralized as an information source one way or the other. If it was a mistake, then call them off and make peace. Of course, that means the whole deal about "controlling crime, since you can never fully purge it" was useless.
Fact: Whale's existence as a loose end is in fact on some level a problem. They may become a threat.

The catch is, Whale's existence is a smaller problem than some other problems. Whale apparently put considerable time and effort into making sure he could create a situation where once he knew we were after him, he could make us regret it. And he succeeded.

So now Whale is a threat, but he's a threat that becomes actuality, that causes us real harm, if we continue to attack him. He's poisoned meat; if we chow down, we make things worse. Killing him right away in a decapitation strike might have worked, but Whale had good enough bodyguards that our attempt to do that simply failed.
 
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I think it's a really bad idea to genuinely accept Whale's deal. That'll simply give him more time to collect more blackmail on Luthor and set up more concrete contingencies to make it so that he's utterly untouchable in the future, and he may even accrue enough power over Luthor in order to demand things of him that he wouldn't otherwise accept.
 
[X] [Whale] Accept Whale's deal and give him proof that you personally are calling off the assassin

Just do that and try to kill him again with someone else.
 
It's not about him being the equal of anyone.

It's about whether Lex Luthor is the kind of person who throws good money after bad.

For whatever reasons, we decided that killing Whale was better than anything else we could have done (e.g. giving him an ultimatum to get out of town, bribing him to get out of town). We hired a pretty good assassin. She gave it a good shot. She failed. Whale is alerted, vengeful, and afraid. It turns out that Whale was able to exploit loopholes in our defenses and get information that could seriously hurt us. Now he's trying to barter that for his life.

Why do we want him dead badly enough to accept a major setback? Why did we want him dead that badly in the first place? I doubt many of us would have voted to assassinate Whale in the first place if we didn't expect to get away with it cleanly. Now we're almost sure not to be able to get away with it cleanly.

There are reasons for Luthor to change his mind about killing someone other than "this person is my equal." Luthor's presumed superiority does not necessarily have to express itself through killing everyone.

We... never really used Bito. Bito is still out there.

Also, Bane clearly has a very great level of pride, and a fixation on destroying Batman that would seem weird* if we weren't playing a character who's about to do one of the things you proverbially do not do, and tug on Superman's cape.

We may be able to get him to do things for us as a mercenary, but there are going to be sharp limits.
_____________________

*(I'd have expected him to only develop such an obsession after arriving in Gotham, or at least the United States)

A reasonable approach- though as we just saw, it's possible for Lady Vic, or any assassin, to simply fail.

The queen? Run that by me again?

That exposes us to his men and gives him a plausible opportunity for revenge.

If we wanted to use him as a commando leader of a mercenary unit, it'd probably work, especially since his men are so well armed. The problem is simply that he's too proud to work for us- we'd have to do something like integrate his men into our PMC and put him in charge of that, I think.

Attempts to sway Jonah Hex to the Luthors' side would probably have been more an issue for Leland or Leonardo. :p

Yes, but other crimes like "spying on everyone with a cell phone" and "having nuclear missiles" are harder to explain.

Fact: Whale's existence as a loose end is in fact on some level a problem. They may become a threat.

The catch is, Whale's existence is a smaller problem than some other problems. Whale apparently put considerable time and effort into making sure he could create a situation where once he knew we were after him, he could make us regret it. And he succeeded.

So now Whale is a threat, but he's a threat that becomes actuality, that causes us real harm, if we continue to attack him. He's poisoned meat; if we chow down, we make things worse. Killing him right away in a decapitation strike might have worked, but Whale had good enough bodyguards that our attempt to do that simply failed.

Okay

[X] Accept Whales Deal

But we need to plug the leaks. And also do you think Bane would agree to do stuff like leading our PMC for us ?
 
The queen? Run that by me again

The king and queen of Vlatava died in a mysterious accident. Princess Perdita has now become queen. However since she is too young to rule her uncle Count Vertigo rules the country as regent

But we need to plug the leaks. And also do you think Bane would agree to do stuff like leading our PMC for us ?

Bane would be a poor choice for leading our PMC. A Special Tactics Squad Leader sure but not our PMC head. Katherine is a better choice but I prefer she stays close to Pamela so we keep them both happy. Slade Wilson or Grant Wilson are better picks but Slade has his own thing and we can only contract him for jobs currently, Grant has a huge DC 70 so we need a high Diplo/Stewardship Hero to try.

Speaking of the Wilsons, since Rose now works for us, we should track down her mom and Joseph Wilson. Roses' Employee Healthcare Package covers her family too and we can have Rebecca try to heal Joseph's damaged voice box.
 
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The queen? Run that by me again?
I believe the reference is to Perdita who is technically a queen now that her parents are dead despite being a toddler.

What I will say is that Count Vertigo is now functionally King Vertigo due to the current situation.
*(I'd have expected him to only develop such an obsession after arriving in Gotham, or at least the United States)
So Bane's a little weird but his Batman obsession started while he was in prison. Basically as a child he was plagued with nightmares of a monstrous bat-like creature. Then as he grew up he learned to take strength and that if you were the strongest you were in charge and such. Eventually he came across a tough prisoner from Gotham. This man was a hard fight for Bane and was unafraid of him. The man was however terrified of the Batman.

Bane heard about this individual and then connects this seemingly invincible figure of legend to the creature that haunted his nightmares. Being a somewhat superstitious sort he decides that it is his destiny to come into conflict with the Bat and only by overcoming him and proving himself the strongest will Bane be able to be secure in his dominance. He thus starts planning to defeat the Batman before he even begins taking venom.

His mentality is operating on a mix of superstition and prison rules which has lead him to target Batman and it makes his thinking sufficiently different from anyone not raised from birth in a hellhole prison
 
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I think it's a really bad idea to genuinely accept Whale's deal. That'll simply give him more time to collect more blackmail on Luthor and set up more concrete contingencies to make it so that he's utterly untouchable in the future...
What makes you think he hasn't already set up contingencies? He's obviously been planning this for months, maybe even since before he made his original offer to us.

and he may even accrue enough power over Luthor in order to demand things of him that he wouldn't otherwise accept.
I think that would be out of character for Whale. Whale has consistently been shown as a cautious, even cowardly man who takes his own safety very seriously. I don't think he's going to want to challenge us or risk creating a situation where we decide we want him dead again.

The king and queen of Vlatava died in a mysterious accident. Princess Perdita has now become queen. However since she is too young to rule her uncle Count Vertigo rules the country as regent
Right, but in practice, being a regent whose princess mysteriously dies means you probably LOSE power. Count Vertigo would need to take considerable time to secure his own grip on power before he could make a bid to rule the country himself.

Bane would be a poor choice for leading our PMC. A Special Tactics Squad Leader sure but not our PMC head. Katherine is a better choice but I prefer she stays close to Pamela so we keep them both happy. Slade Wilson or Grant Wilson are better picks but Slade has his own thing and we can only contract him for jobs currently, Grant has a huge DC 70 so we need a high Diplo/Stewardship Hero to try.
Bane would be a poor choice because he does have the ambition to run organizations... but sees himself as a king of his own thing, not as a part of someone else's organization. He'd probably run it fairly well, but sooner or later he'd make decisions we'd dislike, because he views it as his own property.

I don't know if Grant Wilson would actually be good at the job.

Speaking of the Wilsons, since Rose now works for us, we should track down her mom and Joseph Wilson. Roses' Employee Healthcare Package covers her family too and we can have Rebecca try to heal Joseph's damaged voice box.
Maaaybe?

So Bane's a little weird but his Batman obsession started while he was in prison. Basically as a child he was plagued with nightmares of a monstrous bat-like creature. Then as he grew up he learned to take strength and that if you were the strongest you were in charge and such. Eventually he came across a tough prisoner from Gotham. This man was a hard fight for Bane and was unafraid of him. The man was however terrified of the Batman.

Bane heard about this individual and then connects this seemingly invincible figure of legend to the creature that haunted his nightmares. Being a somewhat superstitious sort he decides that it is his destiny to come into conflict with the Bat and only by overcoming him and proving himself the strongest will Bane be able to be secure in his dominance. He thus starts planning to defeat the Batman before he even begins taking venom.

His mentality is operating on a mix of superstition and prison rules which has lead him to target Batman and it makes his thinking sufficiently different from anyone not raised from birth in a hellhole prison
Huh. Wow. Wacky.
 
@King crimson: Oh yeah, did you know there were plans for Bane to be Batman's half-brother? Just thought it interesting trivia, honestly a little surprised we haven't encountered half-siblings yet. Hmm, isn't like Poison Ivy is strictly monogamous, but that's more of a "Batman Beyond" timeframe thing.

Ooh, right, is the Batman Beyond era vaguely canonical for this? Probably plenty of spoilers, but it would be neat replicating Inque's powerset. Though one could consider her a variation or advanced form of Clayface, so...
 
@King crimson: Oh yeah, did you know there were plans for Bane to be Batman's half-brother? Just thought it interesting trivia, honestly a little surprised we haven't encountered half-siblings yet. Hmm, isn't like Poison Ivy is strictly monogamous, but that's more of a "Batman Beyond" timeframe thing.

Ooh, right, is the Batman Beyond era vaguely canonical for this? Probably plenty of spoilers, but it would be neat replicating Inque's powerset. Though one could consider her a variation or advanced form of Clayface, so...
Yes I did. I thought it would have been really neat especially since it would have shattered Batman's perception of his parents as perfect individuals.

Half siblings aren't super common but they do pop up from time to time. Although honestly I have enough fun with just the normal siblings. Like were you aware that Barry Allen had a brother who was switched at birth and went on to be the progenitor of the Thawne family? Stuff like that is super interesting and frankly in my opinion under explored/utilized.
 
What makes you think he hasn't already set up contingencies? He's obviously been planning this for months, maybe even since before he made his original offer to us.

I think that would be out of character for Whale. Whale has consistently been shown as a cautious, even cowardly man who takes his own safety very seriously. I don't think he's going to want to challenge us or risk creating a situation where we decide we want him dead again.

Right, but in practice, being a regent whose princess mysteriously dies means you probably LOSE power. Count Vertigo would need to take considerable time to secure his own grip on power before he could make a bid to rule the country himself.

Bane would be a poor choice because he does have the ambition to run organizations... but sees himself as a king of his own thing, not as a part of someone else's organization. He'd probably run it fairly well, but sooner or later he'd make decisions we'd dislike, because he views it as his own property.

I don't know if Grant Wilson would actually be good at the job.

Maaaybe?

Huh. Wow. Wacky.

What do you think we would have to do to get bane to work for us and make it work ? since Nigma brought quite a lot trouble and i figure Bane would be harder than Ivo and Edward combined.
 
Oh yeah. Adeline Kane was a US Army squadron leader and drill instructor. She may actually be a better choice as head for our PMC. If Rebecca can heal Joseph Wilson's voice we will have her unshakable loyalty.
Well, they'll probably be a hard person to find, but we can try.

@King crimson , we a whole lot of Intrigue options that boil down to "Find [so-and-so]." I know I've suggested this before, but could we have a write-in supercomputer option called "Find ___" with a variable DC? Because "find someone" makes a lot of sense as a supercomputer action, it's the kind of thing the supercomputer would probably make a lot easier, and there's no reason why you'd need to list a whole separate option for each person we'd want to find.

So like "Find Richard Dragon" would be an option, "Find Adeline Kane and her mute son" would be an option, "Find that JSA guy who dropped off the grid" would be an option... we'd just write-in who we wanted to find, and you'd pick a DC based on how hard you expect it to be.

Are there cases where you'd expect the supercomputer "Find" action to be higher-DC than the normal investigative action where we spend an AP on it?

What do you think we would have to do to get bane to work for us and make it work ? since Nigma brought quite a lot trouble and i figure Bane would be harder than Ivo and Edward combined.
I think Bane would be more practical and functionally competent than Nygma, but also more capable of building an independent empire within our company and turning it to his own purposes.

In the short term we'd have fewer hassles caused by him fucking up. In the long term we'd have individual really big hassles.

I don't think this is really "fixable" because Bane's underlying drive is an urge to prove that he is the greatest man of all by defeating all possible rivals. He's not going to take orders well, and while he'll do work for pay, he won't accept that he's part of the organization. His long-term plans will always include independence and supremacy.

I don't think it's realistic for us to figure out a way to make "Bane as an employee" work, now that we've had more access to his thought processes. I was imagining it earlier, but at that time I didn't really appreciate just how driven he is by the idea of personally accumulating power and proving his power by defeating others.
 
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Honestly I'd think of Bane as being a pretty good all-arounder hero unit. High Martial obviously, but his organizational skills? Well, in the Nolanverse he can run a criminal army and not get crushed or backstabbed too badly. In the DCAU, we have this- note how smoothly Bane is organizing an alliance with Riddler and Mad Hatter.

But the flip side of that is that, because he's a gifted all-rounder, both personally strong and organizationally talented, he's got good prospects of going it alone. And he knows it, and likes it.
 
I don't think it's realistic for us to figure out a way to make "Bane as an employee" work, now that we've had more access to his thought processes. I was imagining it earlier, but at that time I didn't really appreciate just how driven he is by the idea of personally accumulating power and proving his power by defeating others.
So really we should concentrate on sweeping up all the useful underutilised minor/one-shot characters under our umbrella. Instead of chasing after the big named Hero Units, lets take in all those people who already have a good impression of LexCorp. Ozzy has been a godsend on that regard.
 
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@King crimson , we a whole lot of Intrigue options that boil down to "Find [so-and-so]." I know I've suggested this before, but could we have a write-in supercomputer option called "Find ___" with a variable DC? Because "find someone" makes a lot of sense as a supercomputer action, it's the kind of thing the supercomputer would probably make a lot easier, and there's no reason why you'd need to list a whole separate option for each person we'd want to find.
I'm still not comfortable with it since I'd have to constantly make dozens of shifts to that one option especially since supercomputer special actions cannot be countered. I'd literally have to spend half an hour minimum on just that one option editing around the DC values since some characters are still actively burying themselves or moving or hiding meaning it would be a different value every turn.

I understand where you are coming from but aside from Intergang not a single locating option has been used at all so I prefer to reduce the amount of work I'd be doing with each update and there are some game balance issues (supercomputer special actions are potentially some of the strongest in the game). I'm willing to put an option there that will be to narrow down places where they could be (which will drop the DC of the actual action) but I don't think I can afford to give an option that would out and out let you find any individual through the supercomputer.
 
Are there cases where you'd expect the supercomputer "Find" action to be higher-DC than the normal investigative action where we spend an AP on it?
Yes there are a few that would be much higher on a supercomputer than by spending an action point (Richard Faulkner is the best example I can think of where using the supercomputer would give you much, much higher DC's to overcome) and some would have to be higher as I calculated the initial DC with things like them moving around and thus adding a roll against your own to it (The Seven Men of Death actively move around and take actions to hide themselves almost every turn).
 
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