Animal Man, Question, Klarion, Silver St. Cloud, Martian Manhunter/Miss Martian and many more.
Somewhat more humorously, Danny the Street
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Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest
- Thread starter King crimson
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Animal Man, Question, Klarion, Silver St. Cloud, Martian Manhunter/Miss Martian and many more.
Somewhat more humorously, Danny the Street
King crimson
Confusion Will Be My Epitaph
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I won't say too much but I will say that at least two of those character have a roll (or more) on whether or not they'll be able to step into the plot more.
"Animal Man and The Beast Boy" sounds like a superhero cartoon name, which is frankly enough of a reason for me to want to make it into a reality.
Off the top of my head I'm going to say Klarion and Martian Manhunter
The former because Doctor Fate is becoming more active and that's the exact thing that would attract his attention and the latter because of a combination of being curious about Brainiac, people wanting to explore space more and us unlocking zeta beams which is how Manhunter originally ended up on earth iirc
- Location
- California
Gearhead, D.A.V.E. (bit of a longshot), Temblor (either to recruit or study the gauntlet's tech), Cheetah (hopefully still recruitable as Barbara Minerva), and Killer Moth (Teen Titans version, though he's already been mentioned in-quest).
Also was wondering if the changes to Siobhan's coops from the LexCorp press conference were being added in at the end of the turn.
King crimson
Confusion Will Be My Epitaph
- Location
- Los Angeles
I will say that in the Secrets and Lies in Jump City omake series, I did plan on getting D.A.V.E., or at least a variant of him out in the next "episode".
As for the Siobhan stuff thank you for calling that out. I updated my internal records but forgot to do so for the actual character information proper. I'll try and get that done as soon as reasonably possible.
Edit: Siobhan stuff should be updated now
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King crimson
Confusion Will Be My Epitaph
- Location
- Los Angeles
So I figured people might enjoy hearing about this. I often idly brainstorm titles for events/interludes/omakes and save them up for use later. A lot of the time I like to make references or puns with these titles. My favorite reference in anything I've written was with the Gotham Interlude: Carnival of the Animals where the POV's all matched up to the animals in the original classical musical suite in some capacity. As such I've been brainstorming a few more musical references I might want to weave into things.
I know that for whenever Zod comes out and there's an event dealing with Kryptonians that I want to do something with Phantom Planet, a lot like how in the A Trip to Gotham interludes all of the titles were derived from Oingo Boingo songs. I don't actually know what that potential event might look like, but I with songs like Leader, Demon Daughters, The Happy Ending, In Our Darkest Hour, Raise the Dead, Do the Panic, You're not Welcome Here and more I'm confident I can find some song titles that are appropriate as interlude titles.
I also very much want to potentially do something with All Along the Watchtower, Dance of the Pagan Monster, Virtual Insanity, Under Pressure, Life During Wartime, Beast of Burden and Video Killed the Radio Star. I don't know if/when I'll get to use these titles but I want to do so at some point want to try and use them.
Are there any other album/song titles people think would make a neat title later on down the line?
I know that for whenever Zod comes out and there's an event dealing with Kryptonians that I want to do something with Phantom Planet, a lot like how in the A Trip to Gotham interludes all of the titles were derived from Oingo Boingo songs. I don't actually know what that potential event might look like, but I with songs like Leader, Demon Daughters, The Happy Ending, In Our Darkest Hour, Raise the Dead, Do the Panic, You're not Welcome Here and more I'm confident I can find some song titles that are appropriate as interlude titles.
I also very much want to potentially do something with All Along the Watchtower, Dance of the Pagan Monster, Virtual Insanity, Under Pressure, Life During Wartime, Beast of Burden and Video Killed the Radio Star. I don't know if/when I'll get to use these titles but I want to do so at some point want to try and use them.
Are there any other album/song titles people think would make a neat title later on down the line?
My evil plan to save the world. By Five Iron Frenzy.
When your evil. By Voltaire .
Demons are a girl's best friend. By Powerwolf.
Killers with a cross. Also by Powerwolf. Just in case you want to something with Azrael.
Universe on fire. By Gloryhammer.
Setting the woods on fire. By Hank Willaims. Only because Joker and Harley sang it once on "The Batman".
Drives us Bats. From the Music Meister episode of Batman the brave and the bold.
Kryptonite. By 3 Doors Down.
No more heroes. By the Aviators.
Those are the ones I can think of after a few minutes. I guess you could use "Beasts of England" from George Orwell's animal farm and change it to "Beasts of Gotham".
When your evil. By Voltaire .
Demons are a girl's best friend. By Powerwolf.
Killers with a cross. Also by Powerwolf. Just in case you want to something with Azrael.
Universe on fire. By Gloryhammer.
Setting the woods on fire. By Hank Willaims. Only because Joker and Harley sang it once on "The Batman".
Drives us Bats. From the Music Meister episode of Batman the brave and the bold.
Kryptonite. By 3 Doors Down.
No more heroes. By the Aviators.
Those are the ones I can think of after a few minutes. I guess you could use "Beasts of England" from George Orwell's animal farm and change it to "Beasts of Gotham".
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I'm Alive by Godsmack would work well for the showdown between Bane & Batman. In a way Banes entire life has been twisted to be about some future confrontation which he has made Batman the focus of and Bruce Lives to fight the Criminals that threaten Gotham.
Demon Crusher by Really slow motion & Giant Apes if we ever actually fight & defeat trigon.
Worst in me by Citizen Soldier for Jason Todd scene (assuming he becomes Robin). Specifically the scene where Jason and Bruce go separate ways in the lead up to Jason's death.
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Looking at Siobhan's new coops, it improved with Lex and Rene by 0.2, jumped from 0.8 to 1.45 with Carol, went up a tiny amount (.05) with Katherine and Oswald, and had a small increase (.15) with Leonard. It only went down with Elaine but it was already in the negatives.
The biggest gains would be putting Carol and Siobhan on a heroic action together, could even put them on repairing actions for a PR boost and to perhaps increase Siobhan's Stewardship next turn. She can also work with the Rogues repairing Metropolis, Leonard would still lead the action and there's a slightly better coop boost, probably better to improve her popularity in Metropolis first and this action could do that.
While I'd still want to put her and Oswald on the action to create the music production company, the increase in coop won't really change the results, she still adds to the action due to her trait though.
The biggest gains would be putting Carol and Siobhan on a heroic action together, could even put them on repairing actions for a PR boost and to perhaps increase Siobhan's Stewardship next turn. She can also work with the Rogues repairing Metropolis, Leonard would still lead the action and there's a slightly better coop boost, probably better to improve her popularity in Metropolis first and this action could do that.
While I'd still want to put her and Oswald on the action to create the music production company, the increase in coop won't really change the results, she still adds to the action due to her trait though.
I think we'd be better off putting her and Carol on trying to crush crime next turn to try and root out the remaining supervillains that were released to help against Brainiac, it would definitely be a good heroic action for her
I don't think she does, iirc @King crimson has said before she'd need to be making the noise herself for the bounds to apply
I thought that we were planning on putting Roxanne and Carol on an action together next turn. Either a "Crush all Criminals" action or a "Continue Ultraviolet's Debute". Roxanne is in need of a risky action after all, and while we can put her on an action to fight crime in Alexandria or what have you, she and Carol combine for a +92 with potentially up to 4 rolls (there's an almost 75% probability for them to actually roll 4 times with those kind of odds btw, giving us a very decent chance to roll above 550) so I think that they would be a much more effective duo.
After that... Well, I'd much prefer debuting Starfire as Ultraviolet's sidekick in turn 32 tbh, but that's still a long way off.
Siobhan's new coops do open some possibilities for us, but I don't see anything really significant given that the raises are either very minor or with people she isn't going to be teaming up (for example, Carol has better partners)
Fair point though I would still want to put Siobhan on a suitably heroic action so that she's seen to be keeping her word
I also have to ask how you reached +92? As far as I can tell they only get +87
While I definitely see the appeal of having Starfire and Carol work together I'm a little hesitant to do so just because we're trying to push Siobhan as a hero and Starfire is going to spend a lot of time with Cassandra in the future
Though having Starfire serve as Cassandra's superhero bodyguard does have its own appeal
Roxanne Martial 35 + 7 Rocket (5 from the Rocket and 2 from her trait) + Carol Martial times coop with Roxanne 33 * 1.5 = 91.5 which rounds up to 92.
I made a mistake in my math and it's actually above 80% for 4 rolls with a Roxanne and Carol duo.
To an extent that's true, but keep in mind that Siobahn also has good coop with Roxanne, which makes them into a decent team, and that Carol and Roxanne are likely to reach past 100 points per roll within another action or two of working together due to their stats and/or coops increasing from their amazing rolls, so Carol is going to be in need for a new partner sooner or later.
I can see an argument for Siobahn working with Carol instead of Starfire, since while Starfire has a higher Martial score and better coops with Carol, she also has great Diplomacy and Stewardship and great coops with a bunch of other people, meaning that she has a lot of options for actions while Siobahn's fairly one dimensional, but I also think that it's precisely those traits (her great Diplomacy and interpersonal abilities) that would help round out Ultraviolet's image and give her the extra kick to firmly cement herself as the number one hero of the world.
I also don't really see Cassandra and Starfire teaming up together in the near future for many actions (maybe aside from Cassandra's tactics and Strategy Learning Action, or one of her socializations if we go that route sooner rather than later) so that shouldn't be much of a problem on that hand.
As I said however, it can be argued that Starfire is too important to throw in Carol's way while Siobahn is a decent enough alternative, where the gap between Starfire and Carol wouldn't justify the gap between Siobahn and Carol, but I personally don't agree with that since I don't think that we will be teaming them up all the time or that we can't mix and match upon need to get the best of both worlds.
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Siobhan and Carol have a great coop, but Roxy and Carol's is better, pushing them to 92 rather than Siobhan and Carols 74. I mentioned the possibility of taking two crime fighting actions next turn earlier in the thread. I suggest we take both crush all criminals and fight crime in Alexandria.
Given her usual patrol area as a hero it's easier to put Carol and Roxy on Alexandria, since Siobhan going their would interfere with her studies. Meanwhile Leslie and Siobhan can crush all criminals in metropolis for +69 to rolls, exploiting Livewire's abilities to track down criminals we usually miss making use of the electronics we are improving with the R&R vote. This way we can make a double whammie on fighting crime after going light on martial for two turns.
In general if we are going the Superhero Sidekick route it's probably going to be Raven, since she has a child action for that. One of the Lex hero Assignments I'm considering for turn 32 has Lex & Pamela teaming up to oversee said sidekick debute to ensure it has the maximum impact on aligning Raven with Lexcorp Values and improving her opinion of Lex.
Given her usual patrol area as a hero it's easier to put Carol and Roxy on Alexandria, since Siobhan going their would interfere with her studies. Meanwhile Leslie and Siobhan can crush all criminals in metropolis for +69 to rolls, exploiting Livewire's abilities to track down criminals we usually miss making use of the electronics we are improving with the R&R vote. This way we can make a double whammie on fighting crime after going light on martial for two turns.
Though I'd be willing to substitute this in for Alexandria, though I think their about equal in gain.
Turn 31 is looking like more of a stewardship or diplomacy turn for starfire. In particular if his bonus applies and the DC isn't Zero I'd like to get Nathan and Starfire on whatever action constructs Zeta-Beam Tubes.
In general if we are going the Superhero Sidekick route it's probably going to be Raven, since she has a child action for that. One of the Lex hero Assignments I'm considering for turn 32 has Lex & Pamela teaming up to oversee said sidekick debute to ensure it has the maximum impact on aligning Raven with Lexcorp Values and improving her opinion of Lex.
Roxy uses her Jet in that action which brings it to 92.
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I always forget to account for the rocket itself rather than just it automatically triggering her trait, I kinda wish it was added to her character sheet
Carol is already kinda cemented as the number one hero, for me the more immediate issue is getting Siobhan the heroic street cred she needs
The issue is less with Starfire being around Cassandra in the immediate future, though I would like to have them meet with Cassie or Antonia in the near future, and more that the two of them are very much linked since Starfire is officially in Cassandra's employ
Fair points but from the perspective of purely maths it would probably be better to swap them around since Alexandria has the smaller DC while Metropolis' DC is unknown
There are probably other things I'd rather have Leslie on but I'd be happy with those
Honestly I'd rather have them get us some superheroes to sponsor before we start tackling the sidekick dilemma
With this new age of heroes it's not hard to imagine others overtaking her, more so considering the fact were it not for the recent Superman slander he'd actually be just as popular as her by this point (something that he is likely to regain once he clears his name and does a few more good deeds). IMO we need something big to place Carol as the top hero for other people to look at in admiration since it will not only further contrast Superman's image, but it will also draw other heroes to us and increase our own influence within the Superhero community by proxy.
I don't see Siobhan's heroic efforts being an immediate need - as long as she takes a hero-aligned action at least once a year IMO it should be fine as far as "fulfilling her promises" goes. We don't really care about Siobahn making an impact as a hero and she already took a heroic action last turn so I'm OK with her not doing any superhero activities in the near future.
I don't think that Raven is a good sidekick for Ultraviolet when compared to Starfire - not only is her coop score with Carol much, much worse (0.75 VS 1.8, meaning that Raven adds 27 to Carol's Martial rolls and Starfire adds 54. Starfire is literally twice as good), but she is also far less sociable and marketable, removing a lot of the positive PR and overall good image that Starfire will provide which is very important for Carol specifically. There's also the fact that Carol is extremely popular and that as her sidekick Raven might be put in situations that she won't be able to handle at a social level.
Raven can obviously be a great hero, but IMO she just isn't all that good of a matchup for Ultraviolet specifically, especially when compared to Starfire.
Lex and Pamela are way too valuable to put on an action like that, especially considering how tight turns 31 and 32 are going to be for us given both recent developments, our interests, and other commitments (we have way too many commitments) - I also think that you are planning too far ahead with too little information, particularly when it comes to expending so many resources in an action that would shape our entire approach for the whole Trigon situation.
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I'm considering this for turn 32. We are in the latter half of turn 30 and current discussions favor a strong team on attempt to recruit superheroes turn 31. I have a lex lead team for +97 total from initial discussions, but their is a possibility the rewards in brainiac tech might see us putting the team from this turn back on that action so I've come up with another team with +72, compensating for the drop with a double down I'd originally planned to put on the spacesuit action I'm hoping to subvert with the remaining brainiac subvote.
While the DC is unknown, the SCU mean it's probably pretty low, barring some unpredictable event. For convenience (Siobhan's) sake it makes more sense to have her on the action that doesn't take place on the other side of the country before we have Zeta beam tubes built.
See your kind of forgettinf an important benefit of the action in question that serves as my motivation for taking that action.
That being that it improves her relationship and ability to work with ultraviolet, and most importantly Loyalty to Lexcorp. Raven's entire approach to Lexcorp is that she's working with us out of necessity, and will eventually go her own way. Using this action to turn her conditional loyalty to real loyalty is the main draw. You seem to be interpreting this action as mainly a pr pair up rather than genuine mentorship. Carol doesn't even have to be involved in the main action so their initial coops aren't as big a factor.
The alternative action, debuting her as a full superhero, specifically notes the risk in letting inexperienced and much worse than Carol at all of this Raven out to superhero unsupervised. The point is for Raven to be mentored by Carol and learn how to be a puplic and heroic figure, not for Ultraviolet to get a surge in popularity from acquiring a personable and admirable sidekick to be the heart to her dedication.
Starfire's stats, disposition, and background means she doesn't require the degree of supervision to be a superhero the way Raven does, since her stewardship means she can easily sparse the paperwork involved in a sponsorship contract and learn the does and don'ts, while her personality is already winning hero material. She's perfectly ready to debute as a Lexcorp Sponsored Hero, which we could easily accomplish by taking the form a superhero team action, possibly even assigning her too it.
I have to disagree here. Ignoring my strong interest in investing in hero growth and it's habit to pay dividends as demonstrated by the last two turns Cassandra actions, Raven is a one of kind magic user who can be accurately summarized as a cosmic force unto herself in human skin. One who is ultimately loyal to a cause she is relying on Lex for rather than being loyal to Lex directly. This is something that needs to be corrected, but which we only have a limited amount of time to correct.
One of the commitments your talking about is Trigon, and once Raven is past her child action phase, we'll likely monopolize her time engaging in actions intended to stop him. This means we need to put at least one of said special actions toward fostering her personal loyalty to Lex. This is the kinder option, and not one we should leave to chance.
I feel our best course in regards to this specific goal is to personally assign lex sand his best diplomacy coop and most steadfast supporter that Raven trusts to facilitate the formation of genuine faith in Lex. I am of course pondering other options, and will naturally adjust to account for changes that result in the turn leading up to it.
I'm well aware of that, but considering how many deals we've had to resolve with last minute actions the two turns I've been here for, and the fact that nothing is set until we approval vote, I hardly see the issue with a bit of forethought regarding on of the few special actions we get for Raven. Frankly I don't see how it's much different than considering a Lexpo for turn 32.
I'm also not sure why we wouldn't invest at least one strong hero team in one of Ravens special actions precisely too shape our approach to trigon. It's a course of action worth considering, even if we rule out involving Lex directly.
It's also just one of the options I'm measuring to decide if it's worth bringing up come the actual turn or come up with an alternative team because Lex is needed elsewhere. There are a lot of actions to sort through in a given turn and it's just plain inefficient to reach the approval vote phase or Hero assignment phase without some degree of narrowing down so I only have to measure against the newer actions and what ends up passing.
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I'm not forgetting anything - read the wording specifically. It says "would allow you to build up Raven's loyalty to both LexCorp and Ultraviolet" rather than "will create loyalty", this means that generating loyalty will only come from subsequent actions of working together (and more importantly, majorly succeeding in), meaning mostly an improvement in coops scores over time rather than immediately.
In principle, this means that we will be committing multiple actions in the future to create such a strong bond, which is something that I am much more supportive of when compared to full-on indoctrination, but it's still an indeterminable, inestimable, long-term commitment when we already have a shit ton of them, detracting from this option quite a bit in my mind.
That's the thing though - Starfire serves excellently as a buffer for Ultraviolet's own reach, improving Ultraviolet's brand. She can certainly Debut as her own hero and be highly successful and popular, but I think that she is much better served.
When picking a sidekick for Ultraviolet, I want someone who can actively make Ultraviolet "better", be it more influential, popular or effective, and Raven just doesn't fit the bill the same way that Starfire does.
The benefits from Raven's side do exist of course, but again, commitments. In my mind, we would need to resolve at least a few of our plans in the next turn or two before I'd consider committing to a multi-turns Carl-Raven Loyalty scheme.
I already explained my issues with this previously - it would require us to commit multiple turns to build her trust (rather than a single turn) via mentoring and Lex and Pamela have better things to do during turn 32.
I do agree that the sooner we secure Raven's loyalty the better, but that can be done during turn 33 as well for example, after we finish recruiting our first round of heroes and have them do some work.
This is purely theoretical as well - things might change until then (which is why planning so far ahead is difficult) but in principle, I can see how limited our options are when it comes to securing Raven's loyalty (granted, that's something that might change in the next turn or two) and it's certainly something that I'm willing to consider, but as of right now I don't think that it's for the best.
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Your focusing too much on the wording and not enough on similar actions that can be used as examples of how this action would turn out, like the Cass Special action of Turn 29. Like that action this gives Raven a role and guidelines of said role with the intention of giving her something she wants to foster loyalty, and facilitate easier cooperation between them. Like Jinx's official position, this role is not something Raven isn't carrying out because she and Carol are not working together a given turn, even if it would be slower. Also like Jinx, a particularly strong success, especially one facilitated by two master manipulators like Lex Luthor and Pamela Isley, would bypass much of the overtime factor of the action, to allow for more instantaneous improvements to Raven Coops.
Which is already great. Unmatched even. we've established her as an internationally beloved hero, boosting it further with a second roubd of PR this turn and she's among the most recognized in the US. We already have plans to push her popularity further with a team that has an 80% chance of clearing a 500 combined roll on some manner of crime fighting. Rather than focus on how we can use making Starfire Ultraviolet's sidekick to boost her popularity, you should be focused on how Ultraviolet's popularity can be used to establish our Superhero team more quickly once it is formed.
Again, for emphasis stake, a multi turn approach isn't necessary to build carol and Raven's coop. The role of sidekick would mean that Carol and Raven would automatically spend more time together and foster a stronger relationship between them, even if an action together speeded the process. This is of course assuming we do not assign a strong hero team and achieve sufficient success to expedite the process.
We'll see. Again, I'm not committed to this as a Lex option, just as I'm reconsidering whether we should follow through on the original superhero recruitment plan or settle for a lesser team and double down to come back for more brainiac tech turn 31.
Difficult, but beneficial to narrowing down priorities and options in order to decide what can wait(apparently renovating lexcorp tower) and what can't (space suits for Eiling).
The comparison is not really fair in my mind - Jinx came to the position of being Cassandra's second in command with a few prequisities:
1) She already was Cassandra's best friend, meaning that their coop score was going to grow no matter what over time.
2) She already had an active interest in being Cassandra's number two so to speak, with that action being us rewarding her for her already existing interest, meaning that there was going to be an increase in their coop score no matter what since it was inherent to the actions and it even outright states it.
3) "Debut" actions are focused on public relations for a hero unit rather than anything active, so it is probably going to be a press conference or whatever, which is something that Raven isn't going to enjoy regardless, with the focus being increasing Raven's renown rather than anything else.
I'm not saying that a good enough roll won't improve Raven's attitude towards us, because it very much will since that's just how the game works, but that's under the assumption that you:
a) Will get a high enough roll
b) Will get results anywhere similar, under the comparison of an action that was meant to increase coop doing the same.
It's far more likely that there will be a 0.1-0.3 increase in coop (enough to push their coop to 1) even with Carol and maybe Lex at best, with the vast majority of a success making Raven more popular and accepted as a hero.
All in all, I'm not really buying your explanation on this, and I still believe that turning Raven into Carol's sidekick is going to be a multi-turn commitment and that that's how the action was designed. I'm not necessarily against something like this, but due to how many commitments we already have, I'd much rather wait on that.
The only reason that it's unmatched is that Superman is doing poorly right now, which is not sustainable for us. The truth is that new heroes are going to be coming up soon, and corporate interests are going to be pumping them repeatedly for personal gain, meaning that we will have active competition on that front.
The second problem is that Carol's image is actually larger than she is as a person, as demonstrated when she met Tora - Frankly, she doesn't have the same likeability or approachability that someone like Superman or the Flash have. Even if she is an Icon, she isn't necessarily competent enough to be seen as "the" hero by other heroes who will actually get to know her, which is something that Starfire can mitigate considerably.
The third issue is that other heroes might just overtake her with better rolls - I demonstrated in a previous post, Carol is kind of a scrub by herself relative to her acclaim and she needs to both increase her Martial score and have a good force multiplier to really succeed since future successes are going to make the Carol and Roxanne combo go over 100 sooner or later. Raven can certainly serve as that, but to match Starfire she is going to need to have a coop score of at least 1.5 with Carol, and *that's* going to be a multi-turn investment for us regardless of the debut success at the expense of just getting outright worse rolls for Carol and directing Raven to focus on a specific thing. I'm really not buying your idea about this course of action being a "one and done" type of deal.
Also, I said over 80% chance to roll 4 times, not to get over 500, which isn't the same - there is a very realistic chance for us to break 500 with Carol and Roxanne of course, but it's below 80%.
We honestly have a stupid amount of commitments and plans that we are postponing due to said commitments. In this case, we also don't know how future child actions will affect Raven's development and/or interests, so it's incredibly premature to talk about that in any decisive terms in my mind - heck, we just completed an action for Raven that opened up new options for her. For all we know, one of them might change our approach for her altogether.
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@King crimson can we just get your ruling on whether the Raven Sidekick Debute action works relatively similar to how the Jinx official position action did.
2) Is highly interested in debuting as a superhero and won't nitpick over doing it in a sidekick roll instead given her circumstances.
3) why do you think this is an argument against? Ignoring the entire fact that an early debute can be a daring rescue followed by Carol and Raven flying off to presumably stop more crime being pushed through our 24 hour news channel, this is actually a good reason to mentor her under Ultraviolet, because dealing with the public is part of being a superhero and a mentor who can step in and cover for her is a boon.
As for Ultraviolet, the fact of the matter is that you are objecting to prioritising fixing an existing problem of Raven's loyalty to instead focus on Ultraviolets well handled PR game through making starfire her sidekick. Starfire can easily be the friendly and diplomatic buffer to Carol as a full team member from the form a superhero team action we are already planning to take, no unnecessary commitment of an extra action to making her ultraviolet's sidekick neccessary.
Under the comparison that an action to improve coop through fostering loyalty by giving a subordinate position which the character in question desires do to personal ambitions. There is a lot more similarity between the actions than your giving credit for.
1) Raven is a strong admirer of Ultraviolet.
2) Is highly interested in debuting as a superhero and won't nitpick over doing it in a sidekick roll instead given her circumstances.
3) why do you think this is an argument against? Ignoring the entire fact that an early debute can be a daring rescue followed by Carol and Raven flying off to presumably stop more crime being pushed through our 24 hour news channel, this is actually a good reason to mentor her under Ultraviolet, because dealing with the public is part of being a superhero and a mentor who can step in and cover for her is a boon.
Yeah that is the question, one we can't know an answer too until the vote comes around, and in which whether or not a team, or even just one other hero besides raven is assigned is an important factor. Not sure how this is relevant argument. Yes, it is up in the air whether the roll will be high enough to earn higher rewards, like every action ever. No ones saying that isn't the case. It does nothing to disqualify this action from consideration.
As for Ultraviolet, the fact of the matter is that you are objecting to prioritising fixing an existing problem of Raven's loyalty to instead focus on Ultraviolets well handled PR game through making starfire her sidekick. Starfire can easily be the friendly and diplomatic buffer to Carol as a full team member from the form a superhero team action we are already planning to take, no unnecessary commitment of an extra action to making her ultraviolet's sidekick neccessary.
Then it's fairly good that we are fleshing out this action and how it works in the thread now, so we can focus more fully on measuring the value of the new actions once KC presents them too us, since clearly it's open to a degree of personal interpretation.
King crimson
Confusion Will Be My Epitaph
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I'm a bit tired since I'm just coming off a midterm but I'm going to answer this question as best as I can. And the best answer I can give is that I think the literal question you are asking is incongruous with what you want to know. In terms of pure input-output the sidekick debut and official position actions are broadly similar. There are multiple key differences but broadly speaking if you had immediately similar comparable inputs, you'd get immediately similar comparable outputs.
This is not a guarantee for this action to work out exactly the same. Enough things are different both between the action and the input that I will not guarantee that they will work the same. They can work out the same, but they are not guaranteed to do so.
That's all I feel comfortable elucidating on the manner right now. Is that sufficient to answer your question or would you like more elaboration after I sleep a bit?
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Get some sleep, I'm satisfied. Thanks KC.
This isn't the correct question to ask since broadly speaking, they are obviously similar in that they are meant to create closeness and contribute to further coop increases, the difference lies in the fact that one is *directly* situated toward rewarding immediate interest immediately and building off of it, where's the other is build towards establishing trust and in the first place.
The actions are obviously "relatively similar" but the difference is precisely the issue that you are arguing against - the immediate effects.
Edit: the QM outright says that what you are asking isn't actually what you want to know. IMO that's extremely telling.
But that's the thing - this isn't an action to foster loyalty (it is to an extent), but an action *to start* fostering loyalty, which is exactly the issue.
I think that you are strongly missing the point with this comparison in its entirety.
1) First of all, the "strong admirer" bit is not actually what is stated. She admires her but the "strong" bit is your addition. The second point is that, as Cassandra's best friend, Jinx has preexisting trust with Cassandra, which is something that Raven and Carol do not. In fact, Carol finds Raven difficult to work with on a personal level and Raven is actively wary of Carol and her strong moods, which implies a further need for trust and understanding to be established, which means further investment on our part.
2) The difference is that Jinx wanted that position specifically where's Raven wants to help people and sees becoming a hero as the way to so so. What I'm saying is that there will be an increase if Raven is made into a hero, but to get the full scope of benefits of helping Raven achieve her goals we are going to have to have her continuously take heroic actions and actively help people which, again, implies a further commitment to secure her loyalty and interest.
3) Because the focus of the initial debut action, as a Diplomacy action, is to increase Raven's renown rather than increase her closeness to us, further supporting my larger theory of the entire sidekick Raven direction being a multi-turn commitment.
I'm not necessarily against the idea of making Raven Carol's sidekick, but I still maintain that not only would Starfire be a much better sidekick, but that it's way too soon to start planning for such a commitment, with my arguments being against you denying that it's a commitment and claiming that it's a one and done deal.
In the following few turns we are going to get a better idea of what heroes are available for us, or potentially other things that we can do to win Raven's loyalty, and work it off from there. I think that the entire discussion with Raven specifically is too premature since it both has too many variables and would require too much planning ahead when we already have a shit ton other plans and commitments that we need to tackle.
Again, you are strongly misunderstanding the entire issue.
When I say high enough roll, it's in the context of coop improvements - my argument is that the debut action is meant to debut Raven as a superhero, increase her popularity, and create an avenue to earn her trust, meaninf that direct and immediate coop and stat increases are a fringe benefit that is meant for high rolls.
Compare it to Jinx's action, where the coop increases between her and Cassandra *are the priority*, meaning that even if we rolled 20 we were to going to see an increase in their coop scores, with the "fringe benefits" being the increase to Cassandra's and Jinx's Stewardship for example.
This is far from being an argument against taking the action, but it does recontextualize it considerably and adds to my overall point of this entire issue being a commitment.
I'm objecting to planning a commitment of resources that would shape our future strategy as a whole so early, and would I prioritize waiting to literally the last moment, where we have as many cards on the table as possible and preferably with a less tight schedule.
I'm not focusing on Ultraviolet's popularity entirely, but rather my argument was about who would be a better sidekick for Ultraviolet since your point does cover why it would be good for Raven, you don't actually provide a benefit for Carol.
Besides, it's also a consideration of resources and how you are presenting it is what bothers me. I even said myself that Siobahn could be argued to be preferable to Starfire as a complimentary unit to Carol.
The way you are presenting things is, in my understanding, this:
1) Invest valuable Diplomacy units to make Raven Carol's sidekick and use it to create trust.
2) Raven trusts Lexcorp now via proxy of being a hero and is grateful for the opportunity.
Where's I see it more as:
1) Invest valuable Diplomacy units to make Raven's debut good enough to create initial trust and increase her coop with Carol closer to 1
2) Have Carol and Raven take hero actions together to fight the bad guys, effectively crippling Carol's performance by placing her with a suboptimal unit and also monopolizing Raven's time, where she could be fighting Trigon and arguably taking more impactful actions
3) Eventually, over multiple turns of varying successes, Raven will grow to trust Carol and Lexcorp by proxy.
There is a considerable degree of sacrifice here that would force us to play the game in a pretty narrow way to get your wanted outcome. Starfire would require far less specific planning (she already has a high coop with Carol and brings many more immediate benefits to the table in the form of marketability and communication skills) but would still require us to "burn" a unit that can easily be better served doing other things, while Siobhan is the low sacrifice, relatively high impact option in that she is already committed to us indefinetly and has a high coop score with Carol (1.45) on one hand, while on the other hand being shit at everything except for fighting, meaning that she almost necessarily doesn't have anything better to do at any given time than to help Carol on her actions whenever she needs such help.
Another benefit to having Raven work with Carol is to increase her coop scores with Lexcorp-aligned units, which is another potential benefit (although I don't see it as being significant in that I don't see Raven becoming a fanatic like Pamela and Caitlyn, and would even argue that it's bad for her mental health)
What I'm saying is that we should wait and see if we can possibly find a way to integrate Raven more easily, such as finding a better hero for Raven to be their sidekick (we are going to be recruiting at least a few in the next few turns), an action to align her with Lexcorp better before committing her to this specific path, or an entirely different course of action that will become available in the following turns.
P.S: there won't be a commitment of an extra action should Starfire be Carol's sidekick, since "Debut Starfire" and "Debut Starfire as Ultraviolet's sidekick" are both actions that would need to be taken.
That's true to an extenet but it also doesn't actually mean as much since we don't know enough to fully measure the value of new actions since said value is changing between updates, particularly when it comes to Raven, since the information that we have and the developments with the entire superhero situation etc are still happening.
In contrast, committing to an action to build a lab is very easy since we have all of the context for it and it doesn't actually require more than a single unit to see through with at least a good chance for decent success.
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