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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Epicrandom said:
Ignoring the tone, I don't actually think that's true. Currently, we have a number of holes in our arsenal. We don't have an art to keep up the damage from close range after getting an enemy stuck in FVM, and we don't have a high damage art we can use to try to take an enemy out in one hit. People aren't banding together into an anti-attack coalition, they're choosing to fill one hole first, and intending to grab an art to fill the other hole second.
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If I were anywhere in your geographical vicinity, I would literally bet you money on us never getting SFA if we don't get it now. I have literally never seen one of these "compromise" votes end up as anything but a way to draw sucker votes. They literally never end up with the "delayed" side getting what they wanted.
 
To those going for ASA, tell me, just what are you going to do if Ling Qi runs into an armoured foe? Say, like an hard shelled spirit beast? Absolutely fuck all, because we have literally nothing that can hurt it right now. Nothing at all.

Do make sure you've got an explanation, and aren't just going for the art because you couldn't be arsed to move past the first three pages of discussion. Because my past experiences with drive by votes have been incredibly frustrating.
 
I want both arts so badly!

Can you imagine a more frustrating fight than a fight against Ling Qi with both of these arts? At range, you have to dodge the arrows of lightning and if you get hit you lose qi and slow down, meaning that it takes longer to get to Ling Qi. Once you are 35 meters away, Ling Qi starts playing her flute and shrouds you in darkness where creatures of mist attack you and a lethargy spreads across your bones. You then waste qi chasing after a mirage of ash that when you use your qi enhanced strike to hit it just disappears into the mist? You finally use the qi you desperately need to keep fighting for a perception art to figure out where Ling Qi is only to have a bolt of lightning come out of the mist to take away, even more, qi and stop the perception art. You charge in that direction though only to encounter a smokescreen of ash that blinds and chokes you. Eventually, after blindly stumbling around the mists with creatures of darkness snapping at your heals, being incapable of getting out, you are put out of your misery by another bolt of lightning?

This is nightmare fuel folks. It is all nightmare fuel.
 
FixerUpper said:
Well, okay, I'm not sure where the thread is at right now when it comes to arguments, we're going at a fairly quick clip. What I did notice is that Ash seems to be of a more 'complete' tier - i.e. it has 6 levels, so most likely it starts off at low red, low gold and then each successive level requires a cultivation breakthrough, so it is the sort of art where you take up with you all the way to late yellow and silver. Why don't the rest have 6 levels, I don't know, but given the tier-1 access I think it's quite likely they start at low-red/low-gold end at mid-yellow or mid-silver and hence don't have as nice of a finisher as Ashen Shadow does (good ash constructs being the sort of thing that probably requires late yellow/late silver to access).

On the flipside, it appears that techniques aren't made with a 'this is scrub, and this is uber' in mind, but rather all techniques come with costs. Sun Liling's blood regalia apparently depends on sacrificing HLs for power, while Ling Qi's awesome foot art technique depend on it being dark enough and FVM requires her to have her hands occupied and for her ostensible stealth technique to have... musical accompaniment. From what we can tell, one of Meizhen's water arts depends on there being enough water in the atmosphere and whereas Cai has difficulty turning off her ridiculous lightshow while fighting which is either to fool people into a sense of complacency or an actual drawback to her technique (having a honking big HERE COMES THE GENERAL sign written in neon electric white would probably be a notable disadvantage during mass battle).

With that in mind any art that is focused on a single weapon should be superior to an art which is more general. As the double arm art focused on a single weapon, Falling Stars art should do exactly what it was advertised to do, aka, deal damage and pin people down. As it is half-wind we should be able to grind it to max level pretty easily because we already qualify for its theoretically highest cultivation level (mid-silver). Not that that's a big deal, we also qualify for the 4th level of Ash.

All that we know so far about arts from the first level is Zephyr's Breath and in theory those arts follow the following xp scheme:

10-20-40. (80-160-320?)

Due to our favoring of wind (or was it heart meridians?) though, I think 5 xp was knocked off so instead ZB costed 5-15-35. Neither of our current in the lead arts require heart meridians so they will probably cost 5-10-30-70-150 and finally-310 for the last level of Ash. That's a lot of art xp.

Ash works off a theoretical turtle bonus, an action economy synergy with FVM and the amazing visual of fog that gets deeper and darker like you're travelling underwater and damn, you thought it was dark before but now you in LING QI'S HOUSE AND THERE AIN'T NO GETTING OUT NOW, whereas Falling Star works off Zephyr's Breath, our prodigious bow talent and the fact that we could actually sit on our turtle's back and walk around and be all like : I AM A TANK GIT ON MY LEVEL SCRUBS and when they try to get on our level we'd deploy the smokescreen, get off the tank and start playing sniper as they die.

Honestly couldn't choose.
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I honestly think we need to develop both, they work in different situations and fix different issues, and they actually work well together. How do one person put it...

Karugus said:
Yeah, I definitely think that while both arts currently being discussed are awesome, but having both makes them more than the some of their parts. FS makes sitting at range or closing a pain in the ass, but ASA means congrats! You now have entered the debilitating mist and fight someone who's blinding and crippling you with debuffs in melee! All with no coherent idea of what the fuck is going on once you're inside the mist.


Moreover, it does a nice job of differentiating what Ling Qi can do in melee versus what she can do at range. Melee- tons of debuff, obfuscation, and in general waging a war of attrition against someone who can't figure out what the fuck is going on as they deal with attacks being spammed against them. At range? She's sniping and putting out a lot of single target damage, all while ensuring the target has a really hard time closing to engage.

It's just a really cool notion that Ling Qi fights completely differently depending on what range you engage her at, and offers us the benefit of a wider toolbox without necessarily spreading ourselves too thin.
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So join the "Lets get both Alliance."

PrimalShadow said:
Does anyone currently voting for FSA want both arts? Because if so, tell you what. I'm willing to make a deal with you.

If at least one person switches from FSA to ASA and pings me in response to this, I will commit to turning my vote and what influence I have in this thread to making sure we get FSA from the archive in the next couple of weeks. If two people switch, I will do you one better and commit to making sure we get FSA literally next week.


Come-on. Anyone interested in some compromise?
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. . . Well, we are getting an Arm Art now?

Vikram said:
To those going for ASA, tell me, just what are you going to do if Ling Qi runs into an armoured foe? Say, like an hard shelled spirit beast? Absolutely fuck all, because we have literally nothing that can hurt it right now. Nothing at all.

Do make sure you've got an explanation, and aren't just going for the art because you couldn't be arsed to move past the first three pages of discussion. Because my past experiences with drive by votes have been incredibly frustrating.
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Oh, well, then we're going to have to wait for next week! Because we'll be picking up FS! ;)

EDIT: Oh, there's also the option of putting up Dissonance and Elegy, and serenade it to death like the Mimic Worm, but that's not what you are actually asking for. :p
 
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Vikram said:
To those going for ASA, tell me, just what are you going to do if Ling Qi runs into an armoured foe? Say, like an hard shelled spirit beast? Absolutely fuck all, because we have literally nothing that can hurt it right now. Nothing at all.

Do make sure you've got an explanation, and aren't just going for the art because you couldn't be arsed to move past the first three pages of discussion. Because my past experiences with drive by votes have been incredibly frustrating.
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The assumption I've seen is that ASA is armor ignoring damage. Which I guess I can see if I squint, which is all you need since we only get the tiniest idea of what an Art actually does before we start learning it.

I think it's a stretch, but that's the argument, and it's as valid as any other based on the tiny blurb we got.

Thor's Twin said:
I want both arts so badly!

Can you imagine a more frustrating fight than a fight against Ling Qi with both of these arts? At range, you have to dodge the arrows of lightning and if you get hit you lose qi and slow down, meaning that it takes longer to get to Ling Qi. Once you are 35 meters away, Ling Qi starts playing her flute and shrouds you in darkness where creatures of mist attack you and a lethargy spreads across your bones. You then waste qi chasing after a mirage of ash that when you use your qi enhanced strike to hit it just disappears into the mist? You finally use the qi you desperately need to keep fighting for a perception art to figure out where Ling Qi is only to have a bolt of lightning come out of the mist to take away, even more, qi and stop the perception art. You charge in that direction though only to encounter a smokescreen of ash that blinds and chokes you. Eventually, after blindly stumbling around the mists with creatures of darkness snapping at your heals, being incapable of getting out, you are put out of your misery by another bolt of lightning?

This is nightmare fuel folks. It is all nightmare fuel.
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I agree, both is the best, we want both of these Arts.

But if we get ASA now, we won't get the other for another month or two at best, assuming we ever get it at all and it doesn't backpedal to "Well, we might as well go to level 2 by now since we can afford it", and we just end up replacing something else instead, like the ZB successor. Meanwhile, I feel if we do get the bow art, we'll still have a strong push to get ASA as well.

And I agree, ASA is wonderful, I just don't believe it covers our biggest weakness yet.
 
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Alectai said:
We just literally have no response against someone who either has a simple regeneration Art, or tanks up enough that they can ignore weak attacks.
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We have Qi draining, and I'm sure regeneration takes Qi as well.

Alectai said:
I am absolutely, 100% wanting ASA, I just don't think we need it immediately, I would be 100% fine with picking it up next week.
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That costs us half an action worth of dice. Honestly, if FSA wins I'm going to be pushing against ASA in the future just based on how painful I find that inefficiency.
 
FixerUpper said:
Well, okay, I'm not sure where the thread is at right now when it comes to arguments, we're going at a fairly quick clip. What I did notice is that Ash seems to be of a more 'complete' tier - i.e. it has 6 levels, so most likely it starts off at low red, low gold and then each successive level requires a cultivation breakthrough, so it is the sort of art where you take up with you all the way to late yellow and silver. Why don't the rest have 6 levels, I don't know, but given the tier-1 access I think it's quite likely they start at low-red/low-gold end at mid-yellow or mid-silver and hence don't have as nice of a finisher as Ashen Shadow does (good ash constructs being the sort of thing that probably requires late yellow/late silver to access).
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It's been confirmed all the arts in this choice begins at late Red/Late Gold. So they probably all go to Mid Yellow/Silver.
 
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I don't think I can stand the terrible arguments on the basis of 'we'll never do that' any longer. Someone ping me when the vote ends, I'm going to unwatch the thread for a while.
 
Alectai said:
The assumption I've seen is that ASA is armor ignoring damage. Which I guess I can see if I squint, which is all you need since we only get the tiniest idea of what an Art actually does before we start learning it.

I think it's a stretch, but that's the argument, and it's as valid as any other based on the tiny blurb we got.
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Eh, we were told it can proc off of unarmed damaged, which makes it sound like poison damage, which probably means we need to DO damage first. That makes it a spear weapon art in a lot of ways, since spear has free armor piercing. If Sun Liling's art works the same way, it makes sense she uses the spear.
 
Vikram said:
To those going for ASA, tell me, just what are you going to do if Ling Qi runs into an armoured foe? Say, like an hard shelled spirit beast? Absolutely fuck all, because we have literally nothing that can hurt it right now. Nothing at all.

Do make sure you've got an explanation, and aren't just going for the art because you couldn't be arsed to move past the first three pages of discussion. Because my past experiences with drive by votes have been incredibly frustrating.
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Ummm... the same exact thing we did to the last spirit beast that was heavily armored that our attacks couldn't get through to actually damage it. It was the mimic worm in the Serpent's Treasure event. We wait for the armor to break and crumble to dust under constant attacks by shadow minions. I mean, it will take forever and a day, but we have already done it once before. If we want to finish them fast, then there are going to be problems, but we do have a solution against highly armored spirit beasts.
 
TheLastOne said:
Eh, we were told it can proc off of unarmed damaged, which makes it sound like poison damage, which probably means we need to DO damage first. That makes it a spear weapon art in a lot of ways, since spear has free armor piercing. If Sun Liling's art works the same way, it makes sense she uses the spear.
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Seems reasonable enough.

Thor's Twin said:
Ummm... the same exact thing we did to the last spirit beast that was heavily armored that our attacks couldn't get through to actually damage it. It was the mimic worm in the Serpent's Treasure event. We wait for the armor to break and crumble to dust under constant attacks by shadow minions. I mean, it will take forever and a day, but we have already done it once before. If we want to finish them fast, then there are going to be problems, but we do have a solution against highly armored spirit beasts.
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That only worked because it had shitty armor, those bats were basically able to tank us indefinitely.
 
Grosstoad said:
Actually, we will be in melee, sooner or later. We have been forced into melee, and we're pretty much the punching bag of such circumstances.

AS is not about damage, really. Well, not quite, at least, discounting possible damage boosters. It is more of a melee debuff Art, and it tries to dampen the effectiveness of those going into melee range with the user.

Blinding and choking, making them weaker, they are not the finishers that the double Arm Art Falling Stars could do, certainly, but they are Save-or-Suck, and that tends to quickly end fights, if not as definitely as a... Someone called it enervating arrows?

AS is also a Lung Art, and thus it creates constructs. Now, the problem is that what constructs can be made and how they can be used aren't explained. +shrugs+

What we want if Arts that quickly ends fights or help end a fight faster. One of the ideas I have been floating about is Dispel, instead of pure damage dealing, because Ling Qi gets bonus to cultivation with debuff Arts.

AS is probably Touch of Enfeeblement, Blind, and a choking D&D spell -which I am certain exist- possibly getting reach version as the 'complex' construct improves, but that works fine as well.

Well, for me, at least.
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I hate that we can't spaguetti post now.

Anyway, no, we aren't going to be forced in melee were the hell did you get that idea? Our entire build for the moment as been run the fuck away from the melee. FVM is explicitely ranged and SCS has always been used to run away from melee.

Beside, even if we are going to be forced in melee, it's because the other side will be full melee thus much better at it than us. What we should do is not get in a slugging match but run away, stop him from moving back in melee (via the speed debuff of FSA) and kill him at a distance.

The problem is that for to apply the debuff we will need to go where we are the weakest, which is melee. Which make no sense at all.

The construct are a definitive point in favor but a dedicated wood art would probably be better in giving the ability to make bow or musical construct much sooner than ashe can.

I don't see how dispel is going to help us kill people faster? Or are you arguing that the other side dispel is a threat (in which case I would say yes, totally that's why I vote FSA (among other reasons))/
 
Alectai said:
It won't, because the brainbug of "Ling Qi is good at support and exotic moves, so we should double down on that" isn't going to ever go away, as we're seeing here, if it's a choice between "Solve your greatest problem" or "Get more debuffs and debilitation", the latter will always be a competitor with the edge.
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I assert that our greatest problem is having nothing to do with our actions once we have all of FVM up. Ash solves this problem.
 
PrimalShadow said:
I assert that our greatest problem is having nothing to do with our actions once we have all of FVM up. Ash solves this problem.
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Oh. We can totally kick while having FVM right now for additionnal damages. We don't do it, because that would move us in melee which would mean that ennemies will know where we are. Which mean that the basis of FVM would be useless.
 
Alectai said:
Because I don't believe we'll get the lightning art next week if we don't get it now. Because two Arm Meridians that need to be opened (As well as a Lung one) is going to be daunting when we can just 'Put it off because we're fine on arts' until we're ready to do the sable light pill binge.
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None of the offered arts completely rounds our Ling Qi as a complete fighter. "More damage" is just this weird tokenism that seems completely orthogonal to building a way to actually fight. ASA will enhance our damage, otherwise it wouldn't have a arm meridian. It also provides in case we ourselves would be ambushed, or against foes that are able to quickly close distance with us; at least one of whom has declared vendetta against us. It is a far more balanced art that makes investitures more safe, while giving up the absolute highest damage potential.

And additionally, we can train FSA next turn. It would be just a matter of training another art meridian and unequipping ASA. We would run with both eventually, so there'd be no harm in switching like this.

Vikram said:
To those going for ASA, tell me, just what are you going to do if Ling Qi runs into an armoured foe? Say, like an hard shelled spirit beast? Absolutely fuck all, because we have literally nothing that can hurt it right now. Nothing at all.
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Alectai said:
The assumption I've seen is that ASA is armor ignoring damage. Which I guess I can see if I squint, which is all you need since we only get the tiniest idea of what an Art actually does before we start learning it.
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It's true, we would be screwed against such a hard target that even the increased damage from ASA would be completely ignored. Just like we would be completely screwed against a target able to close distance quickly and mantain himself there if we choose FSA. Of course, we have a higher chance of running away from an armored target than a fast one...

Sure, FSA is optimal in a certain set of circumstances, but that's true of any art. We don't need to possess the ultimate hard-counter to any situation, we just need to win. ASA does that.
 
Vikram said:
To those going for ASA, tell me, just what are you going to do if Ling Qi runs into an armoured foe? Say, like an hard shelled spirit beast? Absolutely fuck all, because we have literally nothing that can hurt it right now. Nothing at all.
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Exactly what we did against the Mimic Worm: stack debuffs and then wait for it to collapse under its own weight. Worked out just fine last time.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Exactly what we did against the Mimic Worm: stack debuffs and then wait for it to collapse under its own weight. Worked out just fine last time.
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Ah yes, the Mimic Worm that was explicitly starving to death and qi deprived. It still took more than a dozen rounds. What, pray tell, shall we do against a foe that isn't almost entirely crippled?

I don't think you quite get it, we don't need to be optimal against every foe obviously... it's just that to be effective at all against a tank (And woe be to us if it's an enemy cultivator and not a beast) we need something like FSA.
 
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Seventeen said:
This is incorrect, sort of. Zephyr's Breath, as it currently stands, has such a small range that it's practically useless with a bow. Hopefully that changes if we take the upgraded version, but that's a long way off.
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I was thinking more-

Passives:
-Provides two additional dice to all projectile weapon attacks.
-Provides two additional dice to defense against projectile attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within forty meters by one
-Increases maximum range of all projectiles to twenty five meters if less

Active Effects
Against the Wind: oo
Cost: 4 Qi
On a successful clash reduces the dice pool of enemies within thirty meters by two for the next three clashes. In addition enemy movement is reduced by three

Presumably the bow-specific art would give at least another few dice to bows specifically. With against the wind, you open with an effect that slows down all the enemies and takes away their dice for the next three clashes. You then hit the most dangerous enemy with Falling Stars art that would hit for more damage and yet more of a penalty.

We wonder how Bai Meizhen hits with 15 dice using imperious serpent majesty, but here the math gets a lot easier. Assuming 6 in bow and 6 in dexterity (which is definitely doable by the time the big bad people roll around) we'd be hitting with - without even Falling Stars Art - 14 dice just because of ZB. With Falling Stars art I'm assuming 16 passive dice is quite likely and 18 the dream.
 
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