IMO, the worst part about these arguments is how pointless they are.
These arguments might have affected the vote if they came before hand, but that ship has sailed. Talking about it now accomplishes nothing.
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
IMO, the worst part about these arguments is how pointless they are.
These arguments might have affected the vote if they came before hand, but that ship has sailed. Talking about it now accomplishes nothing.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- They/Them
It's talking about the approach we take without giving an ultimatum like the, "stand there until we get what we want" option so I'd already say it's less offensive than that. Personally I think Ling Qi will be too adorably awkward at attempting a touchy feely moment to come across as anything other than bumbling and certainly not a ninja of speechcraft. I'm sure that for Meizhen our awkwardness is just a part of our charm but I can't see her taking this as an honest attempt at controlling her actions because if it is it's an incredibly poor attempt. It's pretty much the second option but specified wording. Also the fact that Meizhen (as well as Xiulan) has been pushing us to be more diplomatic suggests she'd be less offended.
But if we do end up a manipulative puppetmaster I hope to see yrsillar find new and inventive ways to foil us. I think my favourite's been Mazrick's Tower of God quest where we played as a bard and after a falling out with one of the characters she recognised we were far too convincing to allow herself to talk to and just avoided us.
Yeah I could imagine that being the case. I've been thinking about Xiulan though and her vehemence in sticking to her "rules" as well as enforcing them in her presence e.g. no swearing, being proper etc. Do you think that could be common in her clan? Especially for women that want to be refined but have had yang, specifically an incredibly passionate element, bred into their bones. Maybe they cling to those rules so intently because their own natures are so wild. Not exactly uncommon for people considered neurodivergent to base behaviour on rules to help them conform.
As far as I can see our generally affordable dice until mid yellow for meridians should be 6 (talent) + 10 (stones) + 2 (Suyin) + 3 (Channel clensing pill) = 21. We get an average of two rerolls giving us around 11.5 successes with rerolls. We then have 2 autosuccesses. Giving us an average of 13.5 successes.
Unless we can find a new type of pill this means we're in serious trouble in regards to opening new meridians beyond the next two or three. The next one requires 13 successes and is easily doable on average. Then 14, which requires the a bit of luck to get in a single action (without partial success bonuses). Anything after the next 3 or meridians get's much, much, more difficult until we get to mid yellow.
Given this I think we're best off only trying to get one for argent mirror and perhaps one more for another art before waiting for a while. I'd like to get some art info so we know what meridians we will need. Preferably some form of quick damage art that we could cast whilst playing FVM.
Given that meidian's are basically a strict pass/fail I think that our best option might be getting inner sect disciple tutelage and using our sable light pill to blitz them for a week at mid or late yellow. And I mean a week of non-stop meridan clearing.
Don't forget AS4 makes it so the requirement is 1 less success for meridians. The hope is that AS5 gives a greater bonus to opening meridians. That or if / when we get the moon token open, it might give a bonus to opening meridians.
Yes, TBH, I don't think we should hold onto the sable light pill for so long (basically the rest of the year). We need meridians open earlier, and if the increase in qi gains us a 7th action earlier, it will be absolutely worth it.
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I've joked about omakes being our superpower before, but, well.
When it comes to meridian clearing, I think they just might be.
When it comes to meridian clearing, I think they just might be.
- Location
- United States of America
two auto successes are pretty powerful for meridians
Your whole argument relies on the unwarranted assumption that manipulation is inherently a social attack and/or somehow deprives Meizhen of her agency.
As the thread has repeatedly pointed out, you are misinterpreting what manipulation means. Manipulation is not coercion. Manipulation is a social ability, with all that entails - but it is no more of a social attack than Presence. The only difference is that Presence is more general and geared towards enhancing the general impact of our words/tone/bearing, Manipulation is more specific and geared towards adjusting our words/tone/bearing to fit our current interlocutor and the situation/mood. Both social abilities can be used kindly or cruelly, selflessly or selfishly, to prop someone up or to tear them down; it all depends on what we do with those abilities.
If we asked Meizhen what happened outright, we would be using Presence - trying to convince her to open up by force of personality. Doing it using Manipulation as the vote entails simply means that we instead use Manipulation - trying to convince her by creating a mood where Meizhen would feel more comfortable and/or more inclined towards sharing. In both cases, we are pitting our social ability against whatever hesitation/reluctance Meizhen might have about sharing.
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I'm putting words in people's mouths, apologies. This is just my view.
I... suspect that the agency argument is going to sound confusing to most people because, end of the day, it's a meta-argument, not a motive-argument and a lot of people seem to be treating it as a motive-argument.
Agency is not something you can restrict by trying to be a little nosy: that'd dilute the meaning of agency to a degree where its pointless to even have the word at all. Agency is about choices: like Ling Qi mentioned to the spider spirit beast, she didn't have good choices when she was a street rat. Very few people, deep down, want to make bad choices, but when all choices are bad, what does it really mean to tell a girl 'well, the honorable move would have been to starve.'
No, agency here refers to a specific trend in interactive fiction and the like where the Main Character can be so perfect where other people's choices stop mattering. The secrets they keep, the flaws they have, the things they want, all begin to get subsumed by the main character who can just social fu themselves into 'fixing' everything. Oh, you have a lingering trauma over your dad's death? Let's go fix that through a heart-to-heart conversation and maybe a questline or two. Oh, you don't trust me? That's alright, because if I make this joke about that person with this sort of voice, you'll come to love me, I just know it!
It's about the main character imposing their will on the world to a degree where the world stops resembling reality in any meaningful way. The integrity of the character relationships starts coming into question.
If you're used to the idea of friendship being, among other things, a constant negotiation of boundaries, where sometimes friends push each other into places where they are not 100% comfortable, but where friendship is maintained and strengthened by how each friend deals with that, then the idea that agency matters can seem absurd because Bai can absolutely refuse to engage and that's a completely reasonable end state to have occur within the bounds of the vote.
Others are going to look at the first success and go: oh no, this is going to encourage people to try it again and we all know where that leads.
So, we're on slightly different wavelengths though I think everyone's position has merit.
I... suspect that the agency argument is going to sound confusing to most people because, end of the day, it's a meta-argument, not a motive-argument and a lot of people seem to be treating it as a motive-argument.
Agency is not something you can restrict by trying to be a little nosy: that'd dilute the meaning of agency to a degree where its pointless to even have the word at all. Agency is about choices: like Ling Qi mentioned to the spider spirit beast, she didn't have good choices when she was a street rat. Very few people, deep down, want to make bad choices, but when all choices are bad, what does it really mean to tell a girl 'well, the honorable move would have been to starve.'
No, agency here refers to a specific trend in interactive fiction and the like where the Main Character can be so perfect where other people's choices stop mattering. The secrets they keep, the flaws they have, the things they want, all begin to get subsumed by the main character who can just social fu themselves into 'fixing' everything. Oh, you have a lingering trauma over your dad's death? Let's go fix that through a heart-to-heart conversation and maybe a questline or two. Oh, you don't trust me? That's alright, because if I make this joke about that person with this sort of voice, you'll come to love me, I just know it!
It's about the main character imposing their will on the world to a degree where the world stops resembling reality in any meaningful way. The integrity of the character relationships starts coming into question.
If you're used to the idea of friendship being, among other things, a constant negotiation of boundaries, where sometimes friends push each other into places where they are not 100% comfortable, but where friendship is maintained and strengthened by how each friend deals with that, then the idea that agency matters can seem absurd because Bai can absolutely refuse to engage and that's a completely reasonable end state to have occur within the bounds of the vote.
Others are going to look at the first success and go: oh no, this is going to encourage people to try it again and we all know where that leads.
So, we're on slightly different wavelengths though I think everyone's position has merit.
I see you're point but the idea about opening up yourself in order to convince someone else to open up, is not exactly uncommon in the real world either so I don't know if it qualifies the main character as being somehow special or particularly insightful. The idea of showing your own vulnerability in order to allow someone else to feel comfortable about revealing theirs is in fact so common that many people do it subconsciously.
The Serpent's Treasure Part 5
Ling Qi considered her friend for a moment, the other girl was looking toward the top of the ridge from which the water poured with a hard expression. Ling Qi could tell she was agitated, even with Bai Meizhen's usually muted emotional cues, that was obvious. The redness in her eyes was worrying as well. Her first thought was that her friend had gotten an irritant in her eyes, but… as bizarre as it was to contemplate, had the other girl been crying?
She had dismissed the possibility without really considering it, but it seemed right to her on further thought. Ling Qi felt uncomfortable at the idea of trying to push the other girl into talking about it though. She still didn't exactly enjoy social confrontation, even if she had found herself slowly growing more perceptive about such things as she cultivated, picking up cues she would not have noticed a few months prior.
"Are you certain you are well?" Meizhen asked impatiently, turning back to her. Ling Qi realized she had been staring for some.
"Yeah, I'm fine," Ling Qi responded slowly, mind racing as she tried to think of a way to resolve this. "It's just, I was thinking maybe we should talk about what we encountered before, in case we get separated and it comes up again," she said, feeling a bit more confident as she spun out a feasible sounding excuse.
Bai Meizhen's expression soured, and Ling Qi caught Cui looking up at her in what seemed to be a slightly worried fashion. "I doubt it will be at issue," she responded tightly. "It seems unlikely for these trials to use the same trick twice."
"Maybe, but it can't hurt, right?" Ling Qi pointed out, feeling nervous as she maintained eye contact with her friend. "The worm mimicking you tried to get me to approach by asking me to examine a pool it was standing beside and hiding in," she forged on despite Bai Meizhen's unhappy expression. "It didn't have Cui with it though, and it dismissed my questions about her by saying she was hurt," she continued, glancing down at Cui, who flicked her tongue in a manner that seemed indignant. "I knew it wasn't you because you wouldn't be so dismissive about your cousin being wounded."
Meizhen's lips were pressed together in a thin line, and her arms were crossed in front of her, concealing her hands in her sleeves. "I see," she replied stiffly. "The worm had, like yours elected to set its trap near a body of water," she spoke in a clipped and clinical tone. It chose to appear as your corpse," she finished flatly. "It attacked when I approached to examine the scene."
Ling Qi winced, it seemed like Bai Meizhen's mimic had been a little smarter about things. "I… don't suppose it talked about having killed me?" She asked, piecing together the events in her head. "MIne said it had killed you, but that was a little too ridiculous to believe," she added her tone a little wry. It was much more believable that someone weak like her had fallen.
"Stupid bug had too many words," Cui grumbled, speaking 'aloud' for the first time since Ling Qi had arrived here. "Until Sister Meizhen made it scream," the snake added with a touch of smugness.
Bai Meizhen turned a frown to Cui, but Ling Qi thought there had been a flicker of something else in her expression before she had looked away from Ling Qi. "The creature was quite talkative, yes," she replied sourly. "And eager to gloat." She glanced up at the ridge again. "Shall we move on?"
Ling I nodded absently, stalling for time as she tried to work out how to approach the next part carefully. "Is that why you are so upset, because you thought I was dead?" The words tumbled out before she could really think too hard on them. Bai Meizhen usually appreciated her relative forthrightness, so it seemed like it was the best path to getting her to talk.
Her friend stiffened in the process of turning away. "No. A Bai does not lose composure over something as minor as the death of ally, do not inflate your own importance so," she responded without turning around, speaking in a completely neutral tone. "Now are you coming, or need I complete this challenge on my own?"
The air felt heavier, stained by the girls abyssal qi, despite the fact that Meizhen wasn't even looking at her. Ling Qi grimaced, feeling uncertain, it hurt a bit to hear someone she regarded as one of her closer friends say something so cold. At the same time… it felt false to her. "I don't buy that, don't just push me away and avoid the question," she replied bluntly, speaking to the girls back. "I don't really get what the problem is, there's nothing wrong with being a little distraught…"
She flinched as Bai Meizhen turned back on her heel to glare at her. "I am not so weak as that. Do not imply such a thing again."
Ling Qi very nearly took a step back, but at the last moment she set her shoulders and refused to back away from her friend, despite the weight of qi pressing down on her, and the thrill of fear that went down her spine. Instead, she glared right back, pushing back the oppressive feeling of the other girls qi with her own lighter energy, sending the hem of her gown fluttering in a phantom breeze. "And I'd appreciate it if you didn't imply I was blind," she snapped. "Do you really have so little respect for me Bai Meizhen?" she asked, finding her courage. "I am your friend, not your servant. You've said that yourself. I'm not just going to stand here meekly and ignore it when I can tell that you're upset!"
The pale girls golden eyes flashed, anger entering her blank expression. Before she could respond further though, the emerald coils at her feet shifted, and Cui let out a low, irritated hiss. "Sister Meizhen is being ridiculous. This is not the time for the mouse to bare her fangs either. Do they both forget where we are?"
Ling Qi saw Meizhen flinch slightly at Cui's words, a flicker of something like self loathing passing through her eyes so fast Ling Qi couldn't be sure she hadn't imagined it. "Cui is right, this is not the time for this," she said stiffly, the oppressive feeling of her qi fading.
Ling Qi let out the breaths the had been holding and nodded, her expression still unhappy. "...Yeah. I was being a little too pushy," she replied quietly. "But I won't apologize for worrying about one of my best friends."
Bai Meizhen remained silent for a beat, expression unreadable and then turned back around, damp hair fluttering with the motion. "Let us move on," is her only reply, a clear shut down of the current topic.
Ling Qi followed her silently up the steep path that lead to the top of the ridge after that, stewing on her thoughts. She had a feeling she had poked something raw with her words, something that had been dredged up by the ambush the other girl had suffered and whatever words her mimic had spoken.
"Mountainroot Bats are known for their resilience, and habit of nesting in large broods," Bai Meizhen's voice reached her as they climbed the ridge. "They lack many of the more esoteric abilities that many bat spirit species possess, but instead have very high physical power and durability for grade one beasts, in addition to the agility and perceptive capability most species of bat spirit share," she explained, tone once again perfectly even and calm. "The more powerful second grade specimens are capable of shattering stone with directed bursts of thunder qi however."
Ling Qi allowed her worries over the other girls state of mind to fade for the moment. "That sounds… dangerous," she responded slowly. "Do you know how many are ahead?"
"Likely at least a dozen lesser beasts," Bai Meizhen replied as they reached the top of the waterfall, and Ling Qi saw the wide gallery ahead, stretching hundreds of meters into the distance. "I am uncertain however, if we are simply meant to bypass the creatures and find an exit, or slay them all. I do not know the minds of the elders in this, but I can easily imagine some hidden prize lying in the cavern ahead, given what we have already passed."
Ling Qi frowned thoughtfully, there were many pillars and stalactites in the gallery ahead, and she could see a few fluttering shapes among them. There was also an eye watering scent arising from the thick layer of whitish gray gunk splattered in patches on the floor. She could not see the far wall, or any exits from here.
[] Suggest simply pushing through the cave and finding an exit, best not to exhaust themselves with an unnecessary battle
[] Fight off the bats. Their cores will be valuable, and Meizhen is right, there is probably some kind of prize
[] Suggest that you go ahead and scout alone attempting to search the cavern without alerting the bats.
Well, kinda short by the nature of it, rolls had their ups and downs. We're heading into the final stretch though.
She had dismissed the possibility without really considering it, but it seemed right to her on further thought. Ling Qi felt uncomfortable at the idea of trying to push the other girl into talking about it though. She still didn't exactly enjoy social confrontation, even if she had found herself slowly growing more perceptive about such things as she cultivated, picking up cues she would not have noticed a few months prior.
"Are you certain you are well?" Meizhen asked impatiently, turning back to her. Ling Qi realized she had been staring for some.
"Yeah, I'm fine," Ling Qi responded slowly, mind racing as she tried to think of a way to resolve this. "It's just, I was thinking maybe we should talk about what we encountered before, in case we get separated and it comes up again," she said, feeling a bit more confident as she spun out a feasible sounding excuse.
Bai Meizhen's expression soured, and Ling Qi caught Cui looking up at her in what seemed to be a slightly worried fashion. "I doubt it will be at issue," she responded tightly. "It seems unlikely for these trials to use the same trick twice."
"Maybe, but it can't hurt, right?" Ling Qi pointed out, feeling nervous as she maintained eye contact with her friend. "The worm mimicking you tried to get me to approach by asking me to examine a pool it was standing beside and hiding in," she forged on despite Bai Meizhen's unhappy expression. "It didn't have Cui with it though, and it dismissed my questions about her by saying she was hurt," she continued, glancing down at Cui, who flicked her tongue in a manner that seemed indignant. "I knew it wasn't you because you wouldn't be so dismissive about your cousin being wounded."
Manip+Persuade+equip. 8 dice
9 10 2 6 6 8 2 9. 4 successes
9 10 2 6 6 8 2 9. 4 successes
Meizhen's lips were pressed together in a thin line, and her arms were crossed in front of her, concealing her hands in her sleeves. "I see," she replied stiffly. "The worm had, like yours elected to set its trap near a body of water," she spoke in a clipped and clinical tone. It chose to appear as your corpse," she finished flatly. "It attacked when I approached to examine the scene."
Ling Qi winced, it seemed like Bai Meizhen's mimic had been a little smarter about things. "I… don't suppose it talked about having killed me?" She asked, piecing together the events in her head. "MIne said it had killed you, but that was a little too ridiculous to believe," she added her tone a little wry. It was much more believable that someone weak like her had fallen.
"Stupid bug had too many words," Cui grumbled, speaking 'aloud' for the first time since Ling Qi had arrived here. "Until Sister Meizhen made it scream," the snake added with a touch of smugness.
Bai Meizhen turned a frown to Cui, but Ling Qi thought there had been a flicker of something else in her expression before she had looked away from Ling Qi. "The creature was quite talkative, yes," she replied sourly. "And eager to gloat." She glanced up at the ridge again. "Shall we move on?"
Ling I nodded absently, stalling for time as she tried to work out how to approach the next part carefully. "Is that why you are so upset, because you thought I was dead?" The words tumbled out before she could really think too hard on them. Bai Meizhen usually appreciated her relative forthrightness, so it seemed like it was the best path to getting her to talk.
10 3 2 6 6 4 3 2. 1 successes
Her friend stiffened in the process of turning away. "No. A Bai does not lose composure over something as minor as the death of ally, do not inflate your own importance so," she responded without turning around, speaking in a completely neutral tone. "Now are you coming, or need I complete this challenge on my own?"
The air felt heavier, stained by the girls abyssal qi, despite the fact that Meizhen wasn't even looking at her. Ling Qi grimaced, feeling uncertain, it hurt a bit to hear someone she regarded as one of her closer friends say something so cold. At the same time… it felt false to her. "I don't buy that, don't just push me away and avoid the question," she replied bluntly, speaking to the girls back. "I don't really get what the problem is, there's nothing wrong with being a little distraught…"
Composure. 3 dice
4 9 9. 2 successes
4 9 9. 2 successes
She flinched as Bai Meizhen turned back on her heel to glare at her. "I am not so weak as that. Do not imply such a thing again."
Ling Qi very nearly took a step back, but at the last moment she set her shoulders and refused to back away from her friend, despite the weight of qi pressing down on her, and the thrill of fear that went down her spine. Instead, she glared right back, pushing back the oppressive feeling of the other girls qi with her own lighter energy, sending the hem of her gown fluttering in a phantom breeze. "And I'd appreciate it if you didn't imply I was blind," she snapped. "Do you really have so little respect for me Bai Meizhen?" she asked, finding her courage. "I am your friend, not your servant. You've said that yourself. I'm not just going to stand here meekly and ignore it when I can tell that you're upset!"
The pale girls golden eyes flashed, anger entering her blank expression. Before she could respond further though, the emerald coils at her feet shifted, and Cui let out a low, irritated hiss. "Sister Meizhen is being ridiculous. This is not the time for the mouse to bare her fangs either. Do they both forget where we are?"
Ling Qi saw Meizhen flinch slightly at Cui's words, a flicker of something like self loathing passing through her eyes so fast Ling Qi couldn't be sure she hadn't imagined it. "Cui is right, this is not the time for this," she said stiffly, the oppressive feeling of her qi fading.
Ling Qi let out the breaths the had been holding and nodded, her expression still unhappy. "...Yeah. I was being a little too pushy," she replied quietly. "But I won't apologize for worrying about one of my best friends."
Bai Meizhen remained silent for a beat, expression unreadable and then turned back around, damp hair fluttering with the motion. "Let us move on," is her only reply, a clear shut down of the current topic.
Ling Qi followed her silently up the steep path that lead to the top of the ridge after that, stewing on her thoughts. She had a feeling she had poked something raw with her words, something that had been dredged up by the ambush the other girl had suffered and whatever words her mimic had spoken.
"Mountainroot Bats are known for their resilience, and habit of nesting in large broods," Bai Meizhen's voice reached her as they climbed the ridge. "They lack many of the more esoteric abilities that many bat spirit species possess, but instead have very high physical power and durability for grade one beasts, in addition to the agility and perceptive capability most species of bat spirit share," she explained, tone once again perfectly even and calm. "The more powerful second grade specimens are capable of shattering stone with directed bursts of thunder qi however."
Ling Qi allowed her worries over the other girls state of mind to fade for the moment. "That sounds… dangerous," she responded slowly. "Do you know how many are ahead?"
"Likely at least a dozen lesser beasts," Bai Meizhen replied as they reached the top of the waterfall, and Ling Qi saw the wide gallery ahead, stretching hundreds of meters into the distance. "I am uncertain however, if we are simply meant to bypass the creatures and find an exit, or slay them all. I do not know the minds of the elders in this, but I can easily imagine some hidden prize lying in the cavern ahead, given what we have already passed."
Ling Qi frowned thoughtfully, there were many pillars and stalactites in the gallery ahead, and she could see a few fluttering shapes among them. There was also an eye watering scent arising from the thick layer of whitish gray gunk splattered in patches on the floor. She could not see the far wall, or any exits from here.
[] Suggest simply pushing through the cave and finding an exit, best not to exhaust themselves with an unnecessary battle
[] Fight off the bats. Their cores will be valuable, and Meizhen is right, there is probably some kind of prize
[] Suggest that you go ahead and scout alone attempting to search the cavern without alerting the bats.
Well, kinda short by the nature of it, rolls had their ups and downs. We're heading into the final stretch though.
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Eh, coulda been worse.
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- Location
- United States of America
Well, here's the first thing I'll say. Don't split up the party.
We found Meizhen, let us finish this or fight this together. Splitting the party in a dungeon, especially right now, would be bad.
We found Meizhen, let us finish this or fight this together. Splitting the party in a dungeon, especially right now, would be bad.
- Location
- Croatia
The problem is that the bats have a high perception and resilience ability, along with high agility, which means our mist is going to be hard to catch them in the mist, and even harder to hide. So while they are a stage one beasts (that is equivalent of red/gold), they directly counter us. So we would need to depend on Bai in the coming fight. And well, with them being able to fly, I don't like our chances.
Well, I'm glad we're not playing Bai Meizhen, because this conversation just raised like ten bajillion death flags for Ling Qi.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
If we're fighting them, it would probably be a good idea to isolate using the mist and then having meizhen and cui with their op poison take them down the stronger ones. Thier high perception is a problem but they are one stage below us and once we debuff them we should be able to take them down.
Bats have that whole echolocation thing going on. Not sure how well the mist will work on them.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Am I a masochist for loving this? Seriously, I grinned throughout this, not sure it could've gone better. Like, Ling Qi showed that spine bonus we got from the breakthrough and reaffirmed their friendship while actually getting Meizhen to emote. I mean Cui was right that it wasn't the time but that just makes it better/more interesting. Maybe we'll be getting some proper interaction between the three of us soon? Actually found it really endearing to see her try and fail to reach out because that was massively in character, having her as a smooth puppet master would just be wrong. Really looking forward to whatever talk they get to have.
Isn't that similar to the dragon, thus should we try negotiating with the Elder spirit here with the remains of the dragons core we have? It seems like it would be one way of unlocking a secret prize. If so I can forsee killing the lesser bat spirits as pissing it off.
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- Location
- Nebraska
Well that worked if only partly.
So on the subject of the bats I have no idea what to do so I'll leave it to those that know.
So on the subject of the bats I have no idea what to do so I'll leave it to those that know.