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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Kshail said:
Honestly? How does this action fix jealousy? That's never gonna go away. Especially as we pull further ahead. We can patch it up but it'll just fall apart again. Unless he stops feeling jealous period the friendship is doomed. People have speculated that Gu only has us as a friend. Well if thats true and we're relatively close and she was jealous about our progress then what about Han? We're much less close to him. Also if we spend so much time with him our friendship with Gu will fall apart given her territorial tendencies. It's pretty much a no-win scenario unless we're willing to dedicate time to just those two. Then our 'wild' group will deteriorate. I'm probably exaggerating a bit here but it's certainly possible unless things somehow get miraculously better with Han.
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Yes.
And on top of that there is the fact that that entire group is a ticking time bomb of a love triangle. And one of them is an asshole noble that barely tolerates us (fan yu).
Gu on the other hand is a bit of a bitch to those she doesn't respect, she has been friendly to us personally but only because we have massive talent and she respects that enough to overlook our birth. No so with su and li

And the fact is that we are going to pull further and further ahead of them in terms of power. I honestly really don't see that group as such a long term thing. The best we can hope for is to drift apart on a somewhat cordial basis before the group self destructs over the love triangle thing.

And that is even assuming all of them make it to inner sect, which I doubt.

That all being said, in terms of character development we shouldn't give up on them
 
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tricholysis said:
I really think the actions towards a shared vent won't work, so for me it's a deal breaker and I'll never vote for River as long as it has that.
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Action is pretty clear that it will be a trade. The Han Jians will need to buy access and at that point our wilderness buddies will just have to accept the awkwardness as they'll have bought the right to be there. Not sure how it could not work, they can't feel betrayed and if it comes to it they can just come at different times to avoid each other.
(*Edit* Just to be clear, I don't think that this transaction requires them to be friends)
Thor's Twin said:
You make some good points about moving it back to the personal action. I'm still unsure if that is the move I should make though for a couple of reasons. I don't want the action we are taking with Han Jian personally, in order to improve our relation to him, to be sullied by talking about business. I like asking the group because we are offering it to the group and not just one person. It might surprise Han Jian, but I don't see how it would interfere with his leadership abilities or his leadership role or make it harder for him to save face.

Since we are offering it to the group and not just to Han Jian, I feel more comfortable presenting it to the group for them to decide. I can understand the concerns about the other members of the group splintering if they don't want to do it, but I feel that the group is too tightly knitted to do that.
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If we want to contain potential fallout we ought to talk to Han Jian first. Talking to the group directly could be seen as an attempt to undermine him and with this being a plan with a heavy focus on dealing with his ego it might not be the best idea. Could always suggest talking to him alone at the group training? I don't think there's much concern for splintering but I do think that talking past the leader and spokesperson could be construed as an insult. With his way of thinking that heart focussed cultivators are leaders he might take it even worse thinking we're trying to subsume his group into our own.
 
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DarkLight140 said:
Basically, by approaching Han Jian individually we are not offering the vent to the group; we are gifting Han Jian a massively profitable negotiation opportunity, thereby proving our friendship in a much more tangible way than simply talking. It's as much a boost for the social action as the presents for Li Suyin and Su Ling were, if not significantly more so.
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Alright, this is actually a very good point that I had not considered. I can see how the opportunity to use the vent and open negotiations with Han Jian personally would be a massive boon to the social link as well as give him an excuse to put off the jealousy for a time, blaming the lack of the Argent Vent on the difference in performance. Of course, this rationalization will only last until he realizes that we are still progressing faster than him even with his access to the vent.

Are there any other arguments for keeping it to the party action as a whole? If not, then I will probably move the action back to the Personal Han Jian action section.

Edit: At the moment I am moving the sub vote "discuss the Argent Vent" back to the Han Jian single action. I am still going to be open to arguments about having it back to the party action though.
 
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Grigori said:
If we want to contain potential fallout we ought to talk to Han Jian first. Talking to the group directly could be seen as an attempt to undermine him and with this being a plan with a heavy focus on dealing with his ego it might not be the best idea. Could always suggest talking to him alone at the group training? I don't think there's much concern for splintering but I do think that talking past the leader and spokesperson could be construed as an insult. With his way of thinking that heart focussed cultivators are leaders he might take it even worse thinking we're trying to subsume his group into our own.
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Yes. We also know that arts cause certain emotional feedbacks. It has been mentioned as the reason why the elders of the sect are all eccentric.f

I don't know if his family art is advanced enough to do so, but it is... it is an art specifically for leadership
Thor's Twin said:
Alright, this is actually a very good point that I had not considered. I can see how the opportunity to use the vent and open negotiations with Han Jian personally would be a massive boon to the social link as well as give him an excuse to put off the jealousy for a time, blaming the lack of the Argent Vent on the difference in performance. Of course, this rationalization will only last until he realizes that we are still progressing faster than him even with his access to the vent.
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Yea, that is a temporary solution that would easily backfire.
 
The real issue with bringing up the vent to Han Jian's group is that we're basically obligated to go through with letting them have access one way or another or we suffer an enormous hit to our relationship. Ling Qi is not exactly a master haggler either. This action is saying that we want Han Jian's group to have access to the vent regardless of the cost.

If we want to get the two groups working more closely together, it behooves us to test the waters with another group training action. Li Suyin is more determined to not act meekly, Gu Xuilan has promised to give Li Suyin an honest chance, and Su Ling is a lot less likely to be snappy and rise to bait when Li Suyin isn't being bullied.
 
mrttao said:
Yea, that is a temporary solution that would easily backfire.
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I'm not saying we should help him rationalize in that manner, I'm just saying it is possible for him to rationalize it in that manner.

Also, the sub vote has been changed and I added a couple of words to indicate that the offer is to the group as a whole. Arguments about word changes or placement changes are always welcomed.

Edit: based on the reason that @DarkLight140 described, I'm changing the wording back to how it originally was, in order to leave it up to Han Jian's interpretation as to whether or not it would be a good idea to give the vent to the group. Also, it will give us more wiggle room in negotiations.
 
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mrttao said:
Yes.
And on top of that there is the fact that that entire group is a ticking time bomb of a love triangle. And one of them is an asshole noble that barely tolerates us (fan yu).
Gu on the other hand is a bit of a bitch to those she doesn't respect, she has been friendly to us personally but only because we have massive talent and she respects that enough to overlook our birth. No so with su and li

And the fact is that we are going to pull further and further ahead of them in terms of power. I honestly really don't see that group as such a long term thing. The best we can hope for is to drift apart on a somewhat cordial basis before the group self destructs over the love triangle thing.

And that is even assuming all of them make it to inner sect, which I doubt.

That all being said, in terms of character development we shouldn't give up on them
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Well it's not like I want to give up on them entirely. Just for the purposes of this vote I want to get that damn token out of the way. Next week he'll either have cooled off a bit, had resentment grow(I find this unlikely given how easygoing he seems to be), or dedicate even more time to training.
 
[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping

Half the reason I'm voting for this is that it narrows the field of debate for next turn's actions. The other half is that I sincerely believe that raising the prospect of introducing Han Jian's group to the Argent Vent is clumsy before we have had another group social action between the two social circles. The last half is none of the popular plans are actually terrible.
 
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Edit: Woah, one misclick and it auto forum posted
Adhoc vote count started by Arkeus on May 26, 2017 at 4:47 PM, finished with 9608 posts and 41 votes.
  • [X][stat] Dexterity
    [X] Plan As Swift as a Coursing River
    -[X] Resources used: Argent Elixir, Argent Accumulation pill, 3 red spirit stones, Bear Marrow Elixir, Gushing Spring pill
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    ---[X] Ask Su Ling and Li Suyin prior, and, if they agree to it, discuss trading access to a high-quality Spirit Stone and Argent Soul vent in exchange for resources/talismans/training and being cordial to those who found it.
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] FVM
    [X] Plan As Swift as a Coursing River
    [X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
    -[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir (Cost 4), Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10)
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] FVM
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    [X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
    [X] Plan Daughter of the Moon.
    -[X]Argent Elixir, 3 Red Stone, Bear Marrow Elixir, Gushing Spring Pill, Argent Accumulation Pill
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] FVM
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Visit the Archive
    --[X] Search for a technique
    ---[X] any combination of Head/Heart/Spine arts that are wind, darkness or water aligned.
    [X] Plan Daughter of the Moon.
    [X][Stat] Stamina
    [X]Plan Backlog and heading off issues
    -[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10), Gushing Spring Pill (Cost 2)
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] FVM
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    [X]Plan Backlog and heading off issues
    [X] Plan Steady Cultivation and taking care off tired friends
    -[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir (Cost 4), Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10)
    -[X] Go out with Xiulan in your downtime, perhaps she can help you do something with your hair
    --[X] Ask about inviting Bai Meizhen
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Spiritual
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    [X] Plan Knock things off the to-do list, and do a big cultivation push next week
    -[X] Resources - 3 Red Spirit Stones
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    --[X] Discuss with others who got tokens
    -[X] Visit the Archive
    --[X] Study formations
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    --[X] Ask Su Ling and Li Suyin prior, and if they agree discuss trading access to a high quality Spirit Stone and Argent Soul vent in exchange for resources/talismans/training and being cordial to those who found it.
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent (no social dialogue, training action)
    --[X] Train Sable's Crescent Step
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    [X] Plan Clearing a Coursing River
    -[X] Resources used: Argent Accumulation pill, 3 red spirit stones, Gushing Spring pill
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    ---[X] Talk to Li Suyin and Su Ling about giving access to the Argent vent to Han Jian and Co, in exchange for spirit stones and training.
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] FVM
    [X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, and Helping
    [X] Dexterity
    [X] Plan Social
    -[X] Argent Elixir, 3 Red Stone, Bear Marrow Elixir, Argent Accumulation Pill
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
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AbeoLogos said:
The other half is that I sincerely believe that raising the prospect of introducing Han Jian's group to the Argent Vent is clumsy before we have had another group social action between the two social circles.
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Well, that is partly why I moved the negotiation sub vote back to the personal Han Jian action. This way we will get a feel about whether or not it would be a good idea to have another joint training session, if the group as a whole would be willing to do it, and we don't appear to be trying to subvert the whole group.
 
Mm. Doesn't look like my plan will win. Hoping this doesn't blow up in our face. Think the groups are too different. It'll make a nice character building failure though. Can't have all things go our way.
 
[X] Plan As Swift as a Coursing River

Edit: Nevermind, I don't care about the tokens that much. :p
 
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Thor's Twin said:
I can agree with you there. I would really like for it to succeed, but if it fails I have high hopes that we can grow and learn from the experience.
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Well I mean if it goes well I'll be amazed and pretty happy about it... just doubtful about it working. The perfect dice social roll from the last attempt was pretty clear. Even with everything going as good as we can it's not enough.
 
AbeoLogos said:
If we want to get the two groups working more closely together, it behooves us to test the waters with another group training action. Li Suyin is more determined to not act meekly, Gu Xuilan has promised to give Li Suyin an honest chance, and Su Ling is a lot less likely to be snappy and rise to bait when Li Suyin isn't being bullied.
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I think we've already tried testing the water with a group training action and seen that it didn't go well. Instead of trying something that failed again in the same way, we do have completely different angles that we could try.
  • We have a Bai Maizhen/Gu Xuilan social action where we try to tie those two together. Can this gradually be worked into Han Jian's group ultimately becoming allied, at least in the sect, with Bai Meizhen's (though the latter is at the moment just us)? She has vent access and could negotiate something on Li Suyin's/Su Ling's behalf- I doubt she'd cheat them.
  • Can we use the common use of the vent as an initial basis to create a Li Suyin/Su Ling/Bai Meizhen social action, possibly encouraging the former two to become friends and Bai Meizhen to offer them some of her excellent-and-now-useless-to-us tea? If yes, they could then come out as members of Bai Meizhen's social following, at which point it becomes politically unacceptable for anyone in Han Jian's group to fight with or slander them without pissing her off. And no one wants to piss her off except Sun Liling/Kang Zihao, who would likely go after her personally or failing that us as her most visible and powerful apparent-subordinate.
  • We have a whole bunch of sect point jobs available. Can we subvote in inviting other people on those jobs? If yes, how about one person from each group that we think would be well suited and could get along okay with us acting as mediator? Build small ties on unrelated forms of mutual benefit to build trust- the same principle as training except it's not something that already crashed and burned.
There are plenty of other possibilities as well. Yes, they basically all take more time than just shoving the two groups together, but not everyone becomes friends right away. If we genuinely want our friends to be friends with our other friends, we have to be prepared to put a lot of thought and a lot of action slots into it.

And if we're not prepared to pay for it, we should just forget that, work on their friendships as separate entities, and use the saved action slots to cultivate more.
 
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Kshail said:
Well I mean if it goes well I'll be amazed and pretty happy about it... just doubtful about it working. The perfect dice social roll from the last attempt was pretty clear. Even with everything going as good as we can it's not enough.
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Hopefully, our two new die, from manipulation, will help in that regard, as well as bringing the possibility to Han Jian personally instead of the group as a whole. We are better at it, and we are trying a different tactic. I have hopes for it working.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Well, that is partly why I moved the negotiation sub vote back to the personal Han Jian action. This way we will get a feel about whether or not it would be a good idea to have another joint training session, if the group as a whole would be willing to do it, and we don't appear to be trying to subvert the whole group.
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I still think it's an incredibly risky social maneuver at this stage. It can very easily be construed as extortion, even if that's not the intention. Han Jian is a cool guy, but I have a hard time believe he'd take "Hey I found this really incredibly potent cultivation site, but you have to pay to use it." in stride.

There's also the logistical issues of actually enforcing that deal among participants. Especially if there's a "be polite" rider to the arrangement. Can we honestly count on Han Jian's support in socially and physically banishing Fan Yu from the vent if it comes to it? The guy's got marching orders from his parents to stay in his good graces, and the vent is too great a resource to deny a 'friend' once it's out in the open.

The whole thing just exists somewhere on the scale of "dick move" unless it goes perfectly.
 
AbeoLogos said:
I still think it's an incredibly risky social maneuver at this stage. It can very easily be construed as extortion, even if that's not the intention. Han Jian is a cool guy, but I have a hard time believe he'd take "Hey I found this really incredibly potent cultivation site, but you have to pay to use it." in stride.
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Good point.

@Thor's Twin, could you edit that part out? I'll just swap plans if you're adamant on it.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I can agree with you there. I would really like for it to succeed, but if it fails I have high hopes that we can grow and learn from the experience.
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Problem is that failure means serious damage to 1-2 of our group SL's. That is kinda crippling to us.

Doing it again after it failed once and with nothing really different between the two attempts.

Thor's Twin said:
Hopefully, our two new die, from manipulation, will help in that regard, as well as bringing the possibility to Han Jian personally instead of the group as a whole. We are better at it, and we are trying a different tactic. I have hopes for it working.
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We did bring it to Han Jian first last time also. We might be better at it but last time we had the most hilarious lucky roll we could have rolled and it still wasn't enough. Are you banking on us rolling perfectly again?

The hard to accept truth is that the two groups simply does not work together. We can make any deals that we want and we still will only have to run insane amounts of damage control.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Hopefully, our two new die, from manipulation, will help in that regard, as well as bringing the possibility to Han Jian personally instead of the group as a whole. We are better at it, and we are trying a different tactic. I have hopes for it working.
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...and the average roll will still be less than the four successes we had when it did not go well.

I just really do not see it turning out well.

I give it better chances in spectacularly blowing up in our faces than going well.

And I have seen social things blowing up spectacularly in yrsillar's quests.

There were no punches pulled.
 
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That is why we need to have an open and candid discussion with him about the matter. "We" weren't the ones to find it, but others helped as well. As long as we don't take the credit and tell him that the others that helped find it are not going to be willing to give access to it unless they get something in return shouldn't be constructed as a bad move. Hopefully, he understands the practicality of it.
 
Thor's Twin said:
That is why we need to have an open and candid discussion with him about the matter. "We" weren't the ones to find it, but others helped as well. As long as we don't take the credit and tell him that the others that helped find it are not going to be willing to give access to it unless they get something in return shouldn't be constructed as a bad move. Hopefully, he understands the practicality of it.
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Like I said, can it go well?
Yes.

Can it go spectacularly, awfully badly?

Oh yes.
 
Getting kind of depressed over this honestly. Merging sounds like a terrible idea. I thought the Han Jian action was to repair the SL not damage it.
 
[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
[X][stat] Dexterity

Sharing the vent would be a massive mistake. Best case scenario is we slowly drift away from Han Jian and company. It's sad, but I just don't see the current situation as sustainable.
 
tenchifew said:
Can it go spectacularly, awfully badly?

Oh yes.
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If my plan wins, and there is a spectacular failure, we will have to deal with it, and while I will be sad that it didn't work, I will happily work through the new problems that arise. This quest won't go perfectly, and I would rather try and fail than not try at all. While the school of hard knocks has the highest tuition cost, the lessons learned are not easily forgotten and are extremely valuable.
 
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