Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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- Original Fantasy
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- Canada
Archery is viable, and has always been viable. The issue we have with it is not that it isn't a viable strategy, but that our Archery art isn't designed for a stealthy, speedy archer with AOE fields, it's designed someone intending to smite the entire horizon with heavenly fire, and the arts more appropriate to us start on the next tier up. We were flat out told so by the Inner Sect tutor we hired.
If the new system encourages Archery in any way, we should absolutely integrate it into our long term plans.
If the new system encourages Archery in any way, we should absolutely integrate it into our long term plans.
- Location
- United States of America
Well... I'm not sure anyone is hyping up archery. Merely asking if it was viable, getting a conditional affirmative, and then lamenting that it was viable again.
Archery filled a specific role when we used it, it did its role well, and then we moved away and have effectively replaced it with better stuff.
edit: apparently I stand corrected.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
I mean it's not the first time SB/SV players have decided on a build and then gotten side tracked by something else.
I never said "everyone"
But theres a certain irony in downplaying the cause of my amusement right after a post like this:
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- Staring into the void
Now I'm obligated to ask if ASA is viable again.
We could use a melee art while training attributes that increase our speed stat.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Now, with food in front of me so I'm happier, I do have some other things to say.
I approve of the removal of dice, as I said above, because of several things: first and most importantly it lets you gain tighter control over your story, which I know from experience both indirect, direct, and from in-depth discussion on the topic with others and playing with dice systems, that having that tighter control will improve the story's quality. This is an inherent feature of questing, because the idea of "I now can and need to make decisions about X topic" means you get better at making decisions about X topic via self reinforcement, with X topic being combat results and getting better being satisfying to read, in this case.
Second, the dice numbers were inflated enough that they were obscuring meaning to the point that they actually obstructed what they represented. We saw this often in readers just not understanding something, be it small or large and making decisions based on what they thought was going on. It never got high enough that it killed the quest, but it very much can, so good on you to remove it. With the removal of them and the replacement with what is going on here, you seem to actually have something that is(barring the terrible fucking opacity) actually representative according to other posters.
I also like the change which seems to have come to action orders, possibly? I'm not sure what's happening there to be frank, but from what you said this is comparative, and you just spool out the fight as you want it from player plans and your own understanding based on that comparison and it is rather freeform. If turns and the like are basically gone, and stuff like speed, stealth and all these other pieces which were neglected because of systemic issues are now actually useful then that is very good.
What I don't like is two-fold: first, the aforementioned opacity is bad. A good system in a quest with both narrative leaning and mechanical leaning individuals needs to be inviting to readers of both the casual and crunchy persuasion in order to actually maintain a readership. The turn by turn minutiae of the Meizhen log is actually legitimately distasteful and completely uninteresting, nor explanatory. The Lan-Lan snippet is better but still not actually very good. I'll say its usuable but that's it, it is definitely not actually fun looking.
Secondly, I was under the apparently mistaken impression that the combat system was going to be massively de-complicated. And it only has been by like two thirds because you've removed the dice and are possibly(?) doing something with turns and actions that is actually really straightforward. You still have the apparent issue of how many things there are to track to give us a rank in a thing, as well as all of these other things like 'A.Spirit' etc etc which go into a combat comparison. I will be honest and say that out of this its probably more okay to not de-complicate this specific section when compared to every other section and I do understand the point of "At some point something has to give so we can have what we want". But, I remember you saying that it can be a pain in the rear to keep track of all of that, and I know it doesn't enthuse me imagining trying to keep track of it myself as a player. So I am actually concerned as a fellow QM that this system may actually be failing the "Simplify combat so everyone can understand" angle which was its starting premise.
Basically my listing as well DeAnno. With the addition of 4) How expensive is all this going to be to use exactly? added on top, because training costs money essentially. Along with ammo, if we don't find some way to get rid of that cost(and what do we pay in return).
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Guys, you're missing the real awesome come back here. Throwing knives are only 1 dot less than archery, and since they don't rely on juggling are the clear and obvious choice for projectile weaponry. Why, a cultivator of Ling Qi's Dexterity should be able to manage a blade flicked from her sleeve during a natural break in her melody with no particular strain.
- Location
- Canada
Who the heck STOPPED?!?!
Thanks @BungieONI
The idea I'm going for is to
A. Make stats and skills important again
B. Make it so that I can throw out simplified statblocks that allow for quick and intuitive understanding of where you stand at baseline against opponents.
C. Make sure there are still enough indicators of incremental growth to maintain interest in turn to turn cultivation
It seems that I still have some pruning to do to reach that though
overdesigning is another bad habit of mine.
The idea I'm going for is to
A. Make stats and skills important again
B. Make it so that I can throw out simplified statblocks that allow for quick and intuitive understanding of where you stand at baseline against opponents.
C. Make sure there are still enough indicators of incremental growth to maintain interest in turn to turn cultivation
It seems that I still have some pruning to do to reach that though
overdesigning is another bad habit of mine.
- Location
- United States of America
It is Ironic.
To be perfectly fair to myself, if I saw the post before I actually posted I wouldn't have posted.
I did.
Archery was useful and fun when we were using it, but it faded from usefulness when we focused on our music and darkness and has pretty much faded completely from relevance to our build when we secured FSS (a much more powerful art that works with our focus and fulfilled the same purpose archery originally had, to deal obscene amounts of damage in a short amount of time).
At present, the only purpose that I see Archery having for us is for quick, dirty, and loud terrain destruction. When we are desperately trying to escape from a sociopathic individual we just stole from and there is a big fat door in our way. Archery is great for that specific scenario, but that isn't really a reason to pursue it. Especially when there is probably better arts for that which doesn't require ammo or a specific weapon.
As it stands, we don't need archery to do well and archery dilutes from the skills we have actively worked to develop. It adds in a nice long range option... but our signature art can already extend to the maximum range of our senses, 200m. Which means we would need a specific longer range perception art to make long-range archery an option, as well as a longer range archery art. Two things we don't need when we have a good stealth suite to sneak up on people that just needs one more really good stealth art to really start being astounding.
To me, Archery has served its purpose, and now we can respectively let it fade away from our repertoire. Ling Qi can still go to the range and shot a couple shots to relax and mediate if she wants, but as a useful combat tool it has served its purpose and its time has come to an end.
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I still say her wind breakthrough isn't quite right in that it should be ranged projectile arts in general, not just archery, but who knows what's going on with mysterious blood powers. At the same time, the explicit faster learning bonus we got at yellow was to all ranged weapons, so double who knows what's going on with mysterious blood powers. Double-dipping on archery? Who knows!?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Good!Thanks @BungieONI
The idea I'm going for is to
A. Make stats and skills important again
B. Make it so that I can throw out simplified statblocks that allow for quick and intuitive understanding of where you stand at baseline against opponents.
C. Make sure there are still enough indicators of incremental growth to maintain interest in turn to turn cultivation
It seems that I still have some pruning to do to reach that though
overdesigning is another bad habit of mine.
In my head(as I imagined it before I knew about this system) the way to maintain interest in turn to turn cultivation was going to be by basically maintaining that half of the system as it is, where it holds interest by virtue of The Number Goes Up. Which is actually surprisingly gripping, and so I imagined that you would keep the EXP and dice for all of that. But you obviously have another plan for that and I don't see problems where I can guess it going.
If you want a bleak example of what happens when over-designing attacks QMs, look at Academia Nut's quests. Its... an adventure.
From week 16, archery train str, dex and wits.
This make it very viable because wits and dex determine initiative and speed is determined by str and dex. As such an archer will be very viable as their normal training would help the hit and run they should adopt, in bonus of helping their damage output.
On the opposite, training music only help manip and music/expression (from what I remember, if I am wrong correct me please). Given the lack of use of manip anywhere else, the new system make it much less viable. As music player combat clashes will always be inferior to someone who cultivate arts that give them usefull attributes for combat, that would enhance their fighting prowesses.
This is actually a major issue because it means that as is music should be sub optimal. It's a logical, yet terrible consequence of the new system because it force people to abandon our build as it will slowly fall behind other build due to our training yelding less usefull stats.
@yrsillar one way to solve this would be to have our musical arts training also help others stats (for exemple fade for FVM and presence for FSS). This would ensure that a musical build do not fall behind other builds.
This make it very viable because wits and dex determine initiative and speed is determined by str and dex. As such an archer will be very viable as their normal training would help the hit and run they should adopt, in bonus of helping their damage output.
On the opposite, training music only help manip and music/expression (from what I remember, if I am wrong correct me please). Given the lack of use of manip anywhere else, the new system make it much less viable. As music player combat clashes will always be inferior to someone who cultivate arts that give them usefull attributes for combat, that would enhance their fighting prowesses.
This is actually a major issue because it means that as is music should be sub optimal. It's a logical, yet terrible consequence of the new system because it force people to abandon our build as it will slowly fall behind other build due to our training yelding less usefull stats.
@yrsillar one way to solve this would be to have our musical arts training also help others stats (for exemple fade for FVM and presence for FSS). This would ensure that a musical build do not fall behind other builds.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
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I thought that he used some variant on the CKII system?
BungieONI
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*has a minor break of laughing*
Nah, I'm thinking of Paths of Civilization. Where he basically overdesigned it to death(using a system of his own design from what I recall). In Labyrinth Spiral he uses a variant of CKII and it seems to be going better.
E: Though I still expect issues because the CKII system is not really meant to be run at any high level of faithfulness because its designed for a computer and not a human.
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Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
I'm not sure how you see this. From what I understand, the only way to control the combat is by good tactics and battlefield advantages. Dice's gone, so the combat is now - premade set of stats and arts + tactics.
Like, take the JR tournament fight. From what I understood, the idea was to "live through the first inevitable hit, then when he overextends bring out worms and control him with lunar moving art". That's the narrative plan, for narrative players. Which can get later developed further by hardcore players like "round one, instant art X, start casting art Y; round 2 finish Y, counter presumed enemy action, round 3..."
Luck won't screw people anymore. Someone who's better or fights smarter will win.
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If yrs plans to not make this round-by-round fights than the system seems really simplified, imo. Every fighter has several characteristics - speed, initiative, P. dodge, P. armor, S. dodge, S.armor, P. to-hit, P. AP, S. to-hit, S. AP and domain weapons. And the fighter also has sets of arts to increse some of them. It's a lot to count, but you need to count them only once and then use this number for the whole fight/for the whole arc/for the whole story, depending on how the character progresses.
And the big thing, imo, is that situations where applied debuff forces yrs to recount the stat all over again won't happen anymore.
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BungieONI
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Which is what I was getting at in a way with my post on feedback. Its a lot to have and I think it would do good to have even this bit simplified, but it has actual merit as it is.
Or we just learn bullshit arts that let us use Music for more things, and suddenly we're absurd again.
For another example, it looks like Expression has been split up into narrower masteries, because it's being described as Music in the combat log. This suggests that Dance is its own thing. Our Dance on its own probably isn't all that great, however SCS has recently picked up decidedly dance themes, and PLR is clearly a Dance Art. This means our two dodgiest Arts are, or have to do with, Dance. Does this mean that Dodge, at some point, gets fed into Dance? If so, suddenly our PLR offense is informed by our generalized physical dodge stat, which is great news from a stat spread perspective.
Dance would be super weird as an offense-only mastery, tbh.
tl;dr: gotta keep an eye on Dancing
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Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Yeah, I understand. Though I don't think so. Systems with too few stats provide little interest when you analyze an art, compare how PC would fare against someone else, etc, because a lot of it comes from how the narrative is made while not being really narrative, and to me seem really... idk, clunky? Like, when I see "Defence 9000" I want to know how character achieves it. Is he a martial master? Or an archmage? Or a demonologists? Because I want to know how I can overcome it.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
My take on the new system? My eyes glaze over on the details. On the other hand, they glazed over on the other system too, so it's not a big deal. What *is* a big deal is that we finally got out of the horrible back-and-forth fights about people who wanted music versus archery versus thrown versus unarmed versus guan dao versus whatever. We were *done*. It was horrible and ugly and people had still-bleeding scars, but it was *over*. That stuff literally drove me away from the quest the first time. The only reason I'm not ranting out my own salt about it is that I don't want to open up anyone else's old wounds. If this new system drags us back into that morass, I'm gone. I may or may not be back.
That was never the plan
Which would make the system very complex again. If we use dance for dodging, someone else use power mastery (sun lilling and her blood powered flight armor or tunnel snek come to mind here), and a third use dodge traditionnal stats, seeing a blockstat will absolutely not tell us wether someone is good at dodging or not.
It goes against the goal of the system which was to simplify things to have different masteries be used for dodge.
Varder
Tired Cultist
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- Hell
I mean, looking at the fight, a good plan would have been...
Because I can't be bothered to read the entire thread to know what the plan was to use it as an example.
Why not? Meizhen has different spiritual attacks that are Int/Projection and Presence/Intimidate to hit, and generally people are all over the place because cultivators are weird weirdos. There's going to be people using weird masteries for defence eventually. That's just the nature of the game.
And besides, in what way does it make sense for Dancers to be... offensive? Purely? As a discipline? It doesn't pass a basic verisimilitude check.