Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[Empere]

We don't see all the missions posted on the Job Board, just the ones that Ling Qi finds interesting or worth doing. There are probably a number of jobs that don't involve face-punching, and are more suited towards production cultivators. Jobs such as fulfilling orders, doing grunt work for more advanced Inner Sect production work, or other such miscellaneous tasks.

I mean I'm sure there are pills whose production takes a long time and is sensitive enough to need supervision. And someone advanced enough to make them probably doesn't also want to spend hours watching and stirring the cauldron.

 

[PrimalShadow]

I am not sure what Su Ling's personal pill furnace being inferior has to do with my post, though?

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Here:

However, what does that mean for someone who does have their own pill furnace like Su Ling? Well, they don't need any sect points, so they don't need to spend that extra 0.5 action for it. They still need the 30RSS minimum investment into each pill furnace, but the "punishment" for making few successful pills is much lower, and the threshold for a profit is much easier

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You treat a personal pill furnace the same way as a production hall pass. If a personal pill furnace is worse at turning ingredients into pills (either in terms of quantity, quality, or success rate), then the comparison breaks down, which is what I was pointing out.

 

[Arkeus]

Here:

You treat a personal pill furnace the same way as a production hall pass. If a personal pill furnace is worse at turning ingredients into pills (either in terms of quantity, quality, or success rate), then the comparison breaks down, which is what I was pointing out.

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It...doesn't break down?

I was pointing out that they don't need the 0.5 action for sect points, but still need the 30RSS minimum. I didn't do calculations on how much Su Ling would make precisely because I couldn't assume there were no differences in pill furnaces. I only stated facts but didn't actually provide conclusions about those facts because of what you just said.

 

[Nervaqus987]

The expenses of the production student are irrelevant when it comes to determining the *price* of their product. In this case, pills. This price is determined by what others are willing to pay for it. It might be cost neutral, or even happen at a profit for the production student but it doesn't *have* to be that way.

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The cost of production is absolutely relevant to the price of their products.

If it costs them more to make a pill than they can sell it for, then why the hell are they gonna make it? This basic economics here.

If it's for personal use or even for close friends or family, then sure taking a loss is certainly feasible. But not if you're gonna be making pills to sell.

 

[Sundancer]

The cost of production is absolutely relevant to the price of their products.

If it costs them more to make a pill than they can sell it for, then why the hell are they gonna make it? This basic economics here.

If it's for personal use or even for close friends or family, then sure taking a loss is certainly feasible. But not if you're gonna be making pills to sell.

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I did say that it might make sense for a production student to work at a loss, thus the price, cost and profit of their production activity could, possibly, not be the main relevant factor in their decision to produce or not. Whether or not that's true is arguable, and we can discuss that (Probably not meaningfully without input from Yrsillar, though).

Regarding basic econmics, I disagree. Companies have been known to produce or sell at a loss, for various reasons.

 

[PrimalShadow]

It...doesn't break down?

I was pointing out that they don't need the 0.5 action for sect points, but still need the 30RSS minimum. I didn't do calculations on how much Su Ling would make precisely because I couldn't assume there were no differences in pill furnaces. I only stated facts but didn't actually provide conclusions about those facts because of what you just said.

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You stated that "the threshold for a profit is much easier", which is simply not true without further assumptions on how a personal furnace compares to the sect furnace.

 

[Mr.rodent]

We should also take into account that a production student whose arts and build is more focused on production abilities or things that would assist them in forming, altering, or working with specific materials may not have the time to master multiple punch arts requires to gather the materials and in that case the answer is simple.

Teamwork. Friendship power.

The same way the ma sisters worked with Su ling, and we see other small groups of cultivators form we would see production students teaming up with others in order to feasible gather the required materials to work on.

Profit may just be an added plus , or there is one, but a production student could have a cultivation art, arts or simply trying to gain experience by crafting and therefore whether they make a profit can become irrelevant. At least to a degree.

Relationships and diplomacy can go a long way for a production student and is thus another form of currency they can use.

Not to mention there are most likely other inner sect or older production students that take on assistants just as Bao took on suyin.

 

[Arkeus]

You stated that "the threshold for a profit is much easier", which is simply not true without further assumptions on how a personal furnace compares to the sect furnace.

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It's actually completely true without further assumption because of the scaling of actions and RSS cost of said sect points. Like, literally it means the threshold for making a profit is to have 2.5 less pills than for the sect furnace. Now, you'd need further assumption about sect furnaces to say that they always at least give 2.5 more pills than non-sect furnace.

As such, the threshold of success needed to make a profit is much easier, as you'd need 2.5 less pills than otherwise. The burden of proof isn't on "but this doesn't account the advantages of sect furnace", as the threshold needed is how many pills you need to make.

I did say that it might make sense for a production student to work at a loss, thus the price, cost and profit of their production activity could, possibly, not be the main relevant factor in their decision to produce or not. Whether or not that's true is arguable, and we can discuss that (Probably not meaningfully without input from Yrsillar, though).

Regarding basic econmics, I disagree. Companies have been known to produce or sell at a loss, for various reasons.

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It only makes sense for a production to produce at a loss if they expect to not produce at a loss in the future... same for companies.

This is why I talked about how many pills per furnace one could plausibly get in the future. E.G, if you can only make 10 maximum pills no matter what when making Bear's Heartblood Elixir, then this elixir would never be sold by outer sect pill crafter who don't pocess their own pill furnace, as it will always be made at a loss no matter what... unless it is needed to learn it to make a better pill that can be sold. However, it still mean that pill will be rare as fuck as it will be considered transitional.

 

[Sundancer]

It only makes sense for a production to produce at a loss if they expect to not produce at a loss in the future... same for companies.

This is why I talked about how many pills per furnace one could plausibly get in the future. E.G, if you can only make 10 maximum pills no matter what when making Bear's Heartblood Elixir, then this elixir would never be sold by outer sect pill crafter who don't pocess their own pill furnace, as it will always be made at a loss no matter what... unless it is needed to learn it to make a better pill that can be sold. However, it still mean that pill will be rare as fuck as it will be considered transitional.

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But depending on how production works, we are in a market where a lot of people produce a lot of transitional items to "skill up". Take it from an MMO perspective, if you are familiar with those. In earlier WoW versions (no idea if its true right now) you were supposed to 'grind your crafting skills' by producing a lot of not-very sought after armor pieces, for example. These sold between players very badly, if at all, and only with a loss compared to raw materials. But producing these items granted you skill points.

Now, we aren't in an MMO market and most pills are actually sought after and useful to at least some Disciples. So they don't get just thrown away/sold to the NPC vendor. But my argument is basically that while certainly a production student would *like* to earn money with their crafting, it is not necessarily that they are able to. They might have to fuel their crafting sessions with several actions of 'money making', maybe Sect Missions, first. The Outer Sect market might be oversatured with (standard) pills from the many? crafting Diciples that are trying to 'skill up', and thus they have to sell at a loss. Or not sell at all.

Of course, they do expect some kind of gain out of their work. I am saying that it doesn't have to be financial, though. Maybe they do want these 'skill points', for future gain and opportunities. Or reaching a noble title. Or whatever, really.

 

[archangis]

But depending on how production works, we are in a market where a lot of people produce a lot of transitional items to "skill up". Take it from an MMO perspective, if you are familiar with those. In earlier WoW versions (no idea if its true right now) you were supposed to 'grind your crafting skills' by producing a lot of not-very sought after armor pieces, for example. These sold between players very badly, if at all, and only with a loss compared to raw materials. But producing these items granted you skill points.

Now, we aren't in an MMO market and most pills are actually sought after and useful to at least some Disciples. So they don't get just thrown away/sold to the NPC vendor. But my argument is basically that while certainly a production student would *like* to earn money with their crafting, it is not necessarily that they are able to. They might have to fuel their crafting sessions with several actions of 'money making', maybe Sect Missions, first. The Outer Sect market might be oversatured with (standard) pills from the many? crafting Diciples that are trying to 'skill up', and thus they have to sell at a loss. Or not sell at all.

Of course, they do expect some kind of gain out of their work. I am saying that it doesn't have to be financial, though. Maybe they do want these 'skill points', for future gain and opportunities. Or reaching a noble title. Or whatever, really.

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That's missing the point of the sect. The sect is here to train new cultivators.

For face puncher that means giving face punching missions (like hunting spirit beast).

For production cultivators that means stuff like making totem to keep spirits away or creating medecine for the medecine hall (we saw Suyin do it).

This means that drug selling need to compete with making drugs for the sect. For it to be possible, it should be at the very least a positive in cost.

 

[yrsillar]

While I haven't delved too far into economics, the Sect does subsidize the production cultivators to an extent. Plus as people have mentioned the Sect missions I've shown are only the ones Ling Qi had an interest in. There are sect missions to produce things or fix things or do various odd job maintenance work. One core does typically produce a whole batch of pills, particularly at the lower end as well. And to be perfectly honest a lot of production students do produce at a loss at least at first, since they're working off a family allowance. Access to the production hall also gives access to a supply of basic reagents in addition to the pill furnaces, which makes it ideal for low rank skill grinding, as it were.

 

[Hangwind]

While I haven't delved too far into economics, the Sect does subsidize the production cultivators to an extent. Plus as people have mentioned the Sect missions I've shown are only the ones Ling Qi had an interest in. There are sect missions to produce things or fix things or do various odd job maintenance work. One core does typically produce a whole batch of pills, particularly at the lower end as well. And to be perfectly honest a lot of production students do produce at a loss at least at first, since they're working off a family allowance. Access to the production hall also gives access to a supply of basic reagents in addition to the pill furnaces, which makes it ideal for low rank skill grinding, as it were.

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I would think that part of becoming a better alchemist would be learning how to optimize your production-more efficient usage of ingredients, learning to substitute less expensive stuff for better, getting more power and thus value out of what you have, recycling dregs into useful medicines-so that making a real profit requires actual skill. It's how I would balance it anyway.

 

[Arkeus]

But depending on how production works, we are in a market where a lot of people produce a lot of transitional items to "skill up". Take it from an MMO perspective, if you are familiar with those. In earlier WoW versions (no idea if its true right now) you were supposed to 'grind your crafting skills' by producing a lot of not-very sought after armor pieces, for example. These sold between players very badly, if at all, and only with a loss compared to raw materials. But producing these items granted you skill points.

Now, we aren't in an MMO market and most pills are actually sought after and useful to at least some Disciples. So they don't get just thrown away/sold to the NPC vendor. But my argument is basically that while certainly a production student would *like* to earn money with their crafting, it is not necessarily that they are able to. They might have to fuel their crafting sessions with several actions of 'money making', maybe Sect Missions, first. The Outer Sect market might be oversatured with (standard) pills from the many? crafting Diciples that are trying to 'skill up', and thus they have to sell at a loss. Or not sell at all.

Of course, they do expect some kind of gain out of their work. I am saying that it doesn't have to be financial, though. Maybe they do want these 'skill points', for future gain and opportunities. Or reaching a noble title. Or whatever, really.

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How long does it take, though? There needs to be the /potential/ to have returns during their time at the sect, and that means for 2nd grade pills. The vast majority of outer sect disciples won't reach green before they get back home, and they should know full well learning crafting actually means you go slower there.

For example, the calculation is completely different for Su Ling as she is not planning to live under a noble where she'll have access to pills, so learning receipes and "skilling up" is actually extremely important for her hermit lifestyle. Likewise, her access to a pill furnace means the cost of failure is much lower than usual, and she can afford to mess up repeatedly before mastering a receipe.

However, for the vast majority of disciples, they will be 'stuck' on normal 2nd grade receipe for a long time, most likely their whole time in the outer sect. The best of them might be able to try and craft some project that are some rare pills, but most won't. This means that they will spend every weeks for a couple years losing money and being looked down on by other low end disciples because they are spending so much time learning crafting that even other bad disciples will be better than them.... and facepuncher are considered superiors.

So, basically, spending money to learn a craft that can't earn them money while being looked down on for their whole time in the sect is not something I think is sustainable, hence I believe that crafters can make a whole bunch of pills at once.

Edit: ninja'd.

 

[yrsillar]

I would think that part of becoming a better alchemist would be learning how to optimize your production-more efficient usage of ingredients, learning to substitute less expensive stuff for better, getting more power and thus value out of what you have, recycling dregs into useful medicines-so that making a real profit requires actual skill. It's how I would balance it anyway.

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Right, it is a big part of it, which is why the Sect just gives a leg up to the people starting out and then that kinda tapers off as you get your feet under you.

 

[veekie]

So basically:
-Combat students get the following starter set:
--One Floor 1 art of their choice, suitable for dealing with weak hunting missions
--Elder guided weapon and physical cultivation training to be able to fight with Grade 1 Beasts with just the weapon for a short period
--Elder guided spiritual cultivation to be able to equip the necessary arts for a short period
--Overpaid Grade 1 hunting missions

-Production students get the following starter set:
--Basic pill recipe of their choice, certain to be relevant to a basic mission
--Basic production classes(medical, formations, pills, talismans) by Elder?
--Access to production hall for a limited period
--Overpaid handyman and junk drug missions

Then as we've seen with combat student track, the Thunderdome ends the honeymoon period and we get to see who managed to leverage their early sect points into a sustainable model and who are stuck.

 

[Hangwind]

... y'know, this puts Li Suyin punking the girls that hurt her in a whole new light. Getting ganked by the rising monster of the mist would have been painful, but expected. Getting punked by the local nerd that spends all of their time putting Xianxia!model planes together?

Well, no wonder she looked both angry and embarrassed!

 

[Camellia]

"TODAY I SHALL EXPLAIN THE CHANGES IN THE RULES FOR NEW DISCIPLES! DO PAY ATTENTION."

"FIRSTLY, NEW DISCIPLES ARE NOW ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE MOUNTAIN. AND MAY GO AS FAR AS THE TOWN AT THE BASE AND THE SURROUNDING FOREST. GOING BEYOND SECT BOUNDARIES WILL REMAIN PROHIBITED. YOU WILL KNOW THE BOUNDARIES WHEN YOU SEE THEM." Ling Qi groaned as the voice pounded on her ears.

"RELATED, NEW DISCIPLES...WHAT, Xin stop that… Tch, ruin my fun will you," the voice suddenly decreased to a more normal volume and took on a petulant tone. "Hmph, in any case. New disciples may now make use of the Request Board in the primary lecture hall, simply take the request note from the board and bring it to the disciple in charge of the Payment hall once the request maker has stamped it complete for you."

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I think sect missions and points only came into effect when the thunderdome started.

 

[Mr.rodent]

... y'know, this puts Li Suyin punking the girls that hurt her in a whole new light. Getting ganked by the rising monster of the mist would have been painful, but expected. Getting punked by the local nerd that spends all of their time putting Xianxia!model planes together?

Well, no wonder she looked both angry and embarrassed!

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Uhhhhh

Suyin is literrally the scary girl with an eyepatch who attacks from the dark and has a scary spider spirit and minions (she bribed the spiders to harass the girls when they left the sect grounds )

And uses the corpses of dead woodland animals to create horrors

And during her duel used a thousand needles of death to gank her opponent with exploding needles ...

I dont think your airplane description applies anymore...

 

[veekie]

Uhhhhh

Suyin is literrally the scary girl with an eyepatch who attacks from the dark and has a scary spider spirit and minions (she bribed the spiders to harass the girls when they left the sect grounds )

And uses the corpses of dead woodland animals to create horrors

And during her duel used a thousand needles of death to gank her opponent with exploding needles ...

I dont think your airplane description applies anymore...

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She punches up, because her arts are relatively limited, but she has a lot of prepared tools that hit above her weight class...once each. She's Spider-batman-girl

 

[Himmelhand]

She punches up, because her arts are relatively limited, but she has a lot of prepared tools that hit above her weight class...once each. She's Spider-batman-girl

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*Imagines Suyin's extra inventory to be a utility belt instead of a ring*

 

[Hangwind]

Uhhhhh

Suyin is literrally the scary girl with an eyepatch who attacks from the dark and has a scary spider spirit and minions (she bribed the spiders to harass the girls when they left the sect grounds )

And uses the corpses of dead woodland animals to create horrors

And during her duel used a thousand needles of death to gank her opponent with exploding needles ...

I dont think your airplane description applies anymore...

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While that's all true now, it wasn't then. She didn't have any of that except for the needles, and those were a surprise. It was very much "the nerd pulls off her glasses and squares up" moment.

She punches up, because her arts are relatively limited, but she has a lot of prepared tools that hit above her weight class...once each. She's Spider-batman-girl

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Y'know, in the comment above you I was going to say "Peter Parker". But that isn't quite right. She reminds me more of a symbiote. And then I realized what a meeting between Venom and Suyin would look like:

*Suyin wandering around looing confused at this strange city when Venom drops in*
Venom: You seem new.
Suyin: Oh, yes, I went through a natural portal on accident and ended up here. Could you direct me to the local lord?
Venom: You don't fear me?
Suyin: Why would I? You seem pretty helpful.
Eddie: I think I might be in love.
Venom symbiote: It never ends well, don't be an idiot.
*On way to police station, they get in fight with...random Hand assassins*
*Venom symbiote grabs an unconscious criminal with tongue*
Eddie: Dude, no eating!
Suyin: Your spirit eats people?
Venom: ...yeah, sometimes. But only criminals! Only those that victimize others! ONLY THOSE THAT DESERVE IT!
Suyin: Oh, okay. It always sucks when the lords are lazy. Don't starve your spirit on my account!
Venom symbiote: I think I might be in love!
Eddie: I SAW HER FIRST DAMNIT!

Yeah, while @yrsillar isn't using the usual Calivinball morality rules of Xianxia, it's still a harsh, primitive deathworld. Morality is a little different, and "potential mates" for cultivators is a VERY broad category.

 

[Aranfan]

Y'know, in the comment above you I was going to say "Peter Parker". But that isn't quite right. She reminds me more of a symbiote. And then I realized what a meeting between Venom and Suyin would look like:

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This exchange is amazing.

 

[veekie]

While that's all true now, it wasn't then. She didn't have any of that except for the needles, and those were a surprise. It was very much "the nerd pulls off her glasses and squares up" moment.

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Mostly the items tell you why the Production students don't just get robbed or strongarmed.

Sure, they won't last sustained conflicts, but the first person to have a go at them will run into an array of single use or location bound punchup items that makes the fight a double loss no matter what.

And if you round up a posse first...why not recruit them instead?

 

[Mr.rodent]

Mostly the items tell you why the Production students don't just get robbed or strongarmed.

Sure, they won't last sustained conflicts, but the first person to have a go at them will run into an array of single use or location bound punchup items that makes the fight a double loss no matter what.

And if you round up a posse first...why not recruit them instead?

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Imagine what happens when production students team up together for saftey.... my god all the arrays and traps and shit...

 

[The Sandman]

Also imagine what happens when the guy who's being an unbearable asshole to the production students suddenly finds that his pill orders take forever, the tutors keep finding reasons to no-show his appointments, the doctors never seem to have any medicine in stock except the one that causes literally explosive diarrhea as a side effect, etc.

It's a really bad idea to treat your support staff like shit, because they have a nigh-limitless number of ways to fuck you over.