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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I don't really care for either argument you just made. What matters here is where the domain grows. There's no on-theme synergy with a lies and illusion bonus, no room for it to synergize with the rest of our current domain. It doesn't hold any value for how Ling Qi likes to interact with others, when have we ever, ever had a use for detect lies? Your examples are incredibly reaching. Meanwhile it makes seems that the supportive bonus could naturally grow to be more than just perception, going along with the theme of the Mirror it would be helping our friends with the same self-realization that the art provides us. Keep in mind that the domain is going to grow all the way to Violet or Prism or White, wherever we end up. The initial listed bonus isn't really relevant except how it informs on a theme that must weave into every single one of our other domain abilities. And we're expecting arts like TRF or FVM to be the main parts. I can't see the lies and illusions bonus evolving in a synergistic direction.
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I don't know why there is this expectation that detecting lies will remain the ability to detect lies but that the perception reroll will grow to be more than perception reroll. It seems natural our ability to pierce through lies could grow into something that allows us to perceive when our friends are lying to themselves and then we can go and confront them about it. Rather than go with forcing our friends to have the same self-realization that the art provides us, we can choose when and how we broach the topic with them, like with what we did regarding Xiulan.

I mean, to say that only the 4 dot choice has the potential to grow and mature is to deny the fact that the choice against lies will have that same ability.

Furthermore, there seems to be a misconception that mechanics = theme. That is most definitely not the case. We could have had a mountain art that did the same thing as TRF, but the theme would be completely different. Mechanically the same, thematically different.

So far, the only argument that I have seen for the perception reroll being thematic enough to tie into our domain is that it supports our allies. If the theme we want to go for with our domain is that it supports our allies, that's fine, but we choose the Moon/music path instead of the friend path when we breached green. Supporting allies doesn't cut it. We want to build a home, a safe haven where people can rest and relax after their adventures.

In light of that, how does perception rerolls tie in thematically? What do they need to be watchful of when we are providing that rest from their adventure? How will it grow in order to incorporate those themes? Is forcing people we care about to face the truth about themselves after their adventure really something we want to be doing in our home?

Incorporating everything that gives bonuses to our allies and family is not what builds a theme, at least not a very strong coherent theme.

So the real question is not "does this support people" but "how does this help build a home?" I struggle to find a way that a perception reroll, and things that could be derived from that, help build a home.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I don't really care for either argument you just made. What matters here is where the domain grows. There's no on-theme synergy with a lies and illusion bonus, no room for it to synergize with the rest of our current domain.
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I would argue that it works well to set ourselves up as the one that guards our family and friends, the one that skulks and kills and steals so that they're safe, so that they don't have to, so that they can be happy. It's a direction that I could absolutely see Ling Qi drifting toward as time goes on, and one that would be helpful for us while working for CRX. Along with that, it's a theme that I think has the potential to grow pretty powerful, and one that's open enough that it should allow us to add to our Domain without boxing ourselves into a cripplingly narrow set of possible arts.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.

Time to flip flop like a little bitch once again. I don't think we would be given 'trap' options so back to my original choice.
adaer said:
I would argue that it works well to set ourselves up as the one that guards our family and friends, the one that skulks and kills and steals so that they're safe, so that they don't have to, so that they can be happy. It's a direction that I could absolutely see Ling Qi drifting toward as time goes on, and one that would be helpful for us while working for CRX. Along with that, it's a theme that I think has the potential to grow pretty powerful, and one that's open enough that it should allow us to add to our Domain without boxing ourselves into a cripplingly narrow set of possible arts.
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Mostly because I like this reasoning. I feel firm in my choice now. At least until someone else makes a post to sway me once more :V
All kidding aside, I do like the guardian aspect adaer talked about. It's a more proactive vibe that I can appreciate. Thanks for convincing me to swap back to my originally preferred choice.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
 
Aranfan said:
I just like the "Ling Qi can't lie to herself" thing. I have no idea which mechanical thing implements that fluff.
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Ling Qi's still mastered the Art and learned from it. I wouldn't consider self-deception a major risk in general, regardless of our choice here.

Axel Fones said:
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.

Time to flip flop like a little bitch once again. I don't think we would be given 'trap' options so back to my original choice.

Mostly because I like this reasoning. I feel firm in my choice now. At least until someone else makes a post to sway me once more :V
All kidding aside, I do like the guardian aspect adaer talked about. It's a more proactive vibe that I can appreciate. Thanks for convincing me to swap back to my originally preferred choice.
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To clarify my position, I don't think there are trap options either. But there are directions. To cultivate is to walk one path of infinite options, and there are no truly wrong paths. However, too many turns and you can have a twisted stunted thing. That's still not wrong, but it's also not even what I think will happen here. I do think we'll manage to walk a strong path with purpose, but this first step does determine what it will look like. Our choice here isn't wrong no matter what, but it changes what the subsequent right answers are.
 
AbeoLogos said:
To clarify my position, I don't think there are trap options either. But there are directions. To cultivate is to walk one path of infinite options, and there are no truly wrong paths. However, too many turns and you can have a twisted stunted thing. That's still not wrong, but it's also not even what I think will happen here. I do think we'll manage to walk a strong path with purpose, but this first step does determine what it will look like. Our choice here isn't wrong no matter what, but it changes what the subsequent right answers are.
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I just like the idea of a more focused 'I'm gonna keep an eye out for any danger to my Home' than a more generalized 'people in my Home are kept incredibly safe'. Like you said, both are valid.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.

Figured now would be a good time to come back to the thread.

Anyway, I quite like the idea of slotting this particular ability, as it reflects Ling Qi's desire to help guide her friends. After all, Ling Qi does have a habit of offering advice to those she cares about, and helping them find/recenter themselves (See Su Ling, Li Suyin, and Gu Xiulan).

Also, I'm noticing a lot of talk about trimming down elements. And to that I say: Moon.

No, seriously, the Moon element could easily let us get away with having a large amount of elements. The big thing about the Moon is that it involves Change, of having multiple facets, and being both one and many. We are cold to our enemies, but kind to our allies. We are both stalwart yet free-thinking at times. We are both experienced and naive. I see no reason why our Arts shouldn't reflect this. Especially given that Ling Qi's development as a character is perhaps the most interesting part of this quest, and locking that character to only a few elements and styles seems almost wasteful. Instead, embrace the Moon's eclectic nature and incorporate all of the facets of Ling Qi into one, rather than cut out parts of Ling Qi. Be both the bard and the archer, the support and the tank, and never hesitate to switch as Ling Qi deems it so.

Granted, this is all thematic and narrative. But given the impending switch to a more narrative system, I believe that this is a good way for Ling Qi to develop.

This is also why I think the Argent Arts have much to offer Ling Qi, even if she doesn't plan on going all in on them. The Moon and the Argent Way both share the idea of unifying otherwise contrasting aspects, with the Moon representing Change between Aspects, and the Agrent Way representing Balance between the Aspects. Thus, I believe there could be a high degree of synergy, at least thematically, between Ling Qi's Moon aspect and the Argent Way. Heck, we even have a notable case of someone who practices both to an exceptional degree, in the form of Elder Jiao.

Either way, Ling Qi is a fascinating collection of otherwise contrasting traits, from her split love for both Music and Archery to her contrasting coldness and warmth, and I believe her incorporation of the Moon into her very soul should let her embrace this aspect of her as a coherent form of her Way, rather than reject it in favor of developing a more singular nature.

Just some two cents from someone who doesn't want Ling Qi to lose her Ling Qi-ness.
 
BungieONI said:
Yeah, but how does that imply the existence of FVM+? To me that structure implies there isn't an FVM+.
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It mentions 'this version of FVM' so I'd imagine there are other versions. Zeqing mentioned them when we met, actually.
Raising Kittens said:
Furthermore, our focus is on what, exactly? Oh, that's right: Darkness, Wind, Water, Moon, Music.

Of those, which is related to 'Know Thyself'? Darkness? Nope. Wind? Would rather run away. Water? Maybe; water is reflective, after all, but it moves, unlike the stillness of a Lake. Moon? Perhaps. Ever-changing, yet with a constant, ordered pattern, the Moon is all of its phases at once. Music? Possibly, if mostly in the context of 'what music can you play as an immortal would'.
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Raising Kittens said:
Which part of my post? Because I wasn't proposing anything in what you quoted, I was making a statement: the elements that are in our primary alignment (Darkness, Music, Moon, Water, Wind) do not care overmuch for Self-Knowledge, and we are therefore highly unlikely to pick up an Art that has such an effect at Mastery as a Domain Lesson - the Lesson imparted by fully understanding and internalizing the Art.
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I mean, you note specifically that AM won't be very much like the other arts LQ could possibly put into her domain, but if you'll recall (emphasis mine):
yrsillar said:
Abilities chosen to fill these slots are PERMANENT, and cannot be changed without significant effort and certain rare resources, abilities which complement or stack with one another will be more potent than more scattered bonuses.
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yrsillar said:
No art which completes before the third realm will do so, and even among those that do, only ones which fit the user may grant bonuses. At the beginning, with a mostly 'blank' domain most third realm arts will offer these bonuses, but as you progress, choice will become narrower.
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When you're building a Domain you want ones that fit. If AM's Mountain and Lake offer a lesson totally different from what Ling Qi's other arts offer then incorporating AM into her Domain will restrict what arts she is even capable of learning from. If taking AM locks out another art nearer and dearer to Ling Qi or the thread, like SCS or FVM, that would be...extremely bad, and annoying.

And as you yourself have noted, AM is almost directly opposed to the lessons of Ling Qi's usual elements and arts. Its bonus will almost certainly have nothing to do with the bonus of SCS ("darkness is absence, here's how you can avoid things"), FSS ("everything ends"), or FVM ("wandering sure is lonely, there's an awful lot of despair I need to express"). Taking AM will probably lock out one or more of the arts above.

Now, it's the first domain slot, so maybe it won't firm up Ling Qi's domain too much...but it's also the foundation, so maybe it will. Maybe the first art you slot into your domain is important because it's the first. And between "this early mistake wasn't too bad, we can fix it" and "improve your foundation, because it's the basis for everything" which of those has been more prominent in this quest?

[X] Discard this realization.
 
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What is very interesting is that AM capstone is "be yourself". This is fascinating because cultivation until now was all about following a path (this path being the one of the moon, the one of the ice mom, ...).

It seem that the argent way path is to be yourself. Balance is not about following an element or anyone but rather recentrate on yourself.
 
BTW I totally expect the thread to accept AM into the domain and Yrsillar should have too. "Do you want a mechanical bonus or nothing?" isn't a question that gets the broader implications considered.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.

So I like this for two reasons. One is that at this point with how many dice we're throwing around rerolls are almost always better. I think a lot of people who don't really get mechanics is looking at this as a weaker bonus for Ling Qi and allies versus a stronger one for just Ling Qi and that's not really true.

The other is the broader themeing. I'm looking at people trying to focus on elements and shaking my head. With her Arts I was always thinking of Ling Qi's domain as something that was going to be, broadly speaking, Hospitable for Friends, Hellish for Enemies. A home that is best left undisturbed by those who haven't been invited. If we assume Forgotten Vale is going to be included in the Domain, then Argent Mirror's AOE version definitely slots in thematically with that, as for Enemies it'd be a Misty Fog that one gets tricked and lost in and for Allies they find their way more easily.
 
Raising Kittens said:
I don't know what I want out of our Domain at this time.
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My set of questions was meant to direct you toward answering the main thrust of my argument: The Domain of a cultivator is supposed to be looked at holistically, as part of a set of tools expressing the cultivator's central dharma. How the Domain ability will affect how she fights, what she thinks is important, who she will be in the future; that is all what you should be thinking about when you vote for a Domain ability.

Of course, you admit you have no idea of how your Self-knowledge Domain affects any of that. So, you know, I'll give this up for a loss if you agree, too?
 
tricholysis said:
And as you yourself have noted, AM is almost directly opposed to the lessons of Ling Qi's usual elements and arts. Its bonus will almost certainly have nothing to do with the bonus of SCS ("darkness is absence, here's how you can avoid things"), FSS ("everything ends"), or FVM ("wandering sure is lonely, there's an awful lot of despair I need to express"). Taking AM will probably lock out one or more of the arts above.

Now, it's the first domain slot, so maybe it won't firm up Ling Qi's domain too much...but it's also the foundation, so maybe it will. Maybe the first art you slot into your domain is important because it's the first. And between "this early mistake wasn't too bad, we can fix it" and "improve your foundation, because it's the basis for everything" which of those has been more prominent in this quest?
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While I'm not thrilled about this decision at all, I don't think it'd be reasonable for one pick here to lock us out of any of our core Arts yet. My reasoning is basically this:

tricholysis said:
BTW I totally expect the thread to accept AM into the domain and Yrsillar should have too. "Do you want a mechanical bonus or nothing?" isn't a question that gets the broader implications considered.
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It's incredibly predictable that with so many open slots existing in our Domain that the thread was going to slot in the first thing that came, hell or high water. Arguing against this one in particular is incredibly difficult, especially for a theme as vague and general and seemingly unobjectionable as "Know thyself." Honestly, if locking AM locks us out of various other Art locks in the future, we were never going to get them anyway because this chain of events was entirely predictable and unavoidable.

Unrelated: @PrimalShadow , your Arts list has Argent Storm at level 2 instead of level 3, and Argent Current at level 3 instead of 4.
 
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tricholysis said:
BTW I totally expect the thread to accept AM into the domain and Yrsillar should have too. "Do you want a mechanical bonus or nothing?" isn't a question that gets the broader implications considered.
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That's...really reductive to the whole conversation that's been going on about whether to internalize or not.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions
 
I'd note that going forward, arts and Ling Qi's understanding of them - particularly arts that become part of her Way - are going to evolve.

Yes, Argent Mirror is Lake/Mountain... but is it going to stay that way? Especially if Ling Qi doesn't also pick up the rest of the Argent masteries (which honestly, I'm not expecting her to)? The Moon is classically associated with mirrors (and I believe this is the case in Chinese mythology as well), reflections and so forth. AM developing into a moon perceptive art is something I could well see happening.


On the "perception re-roll" bonus, I argue it better fits Ling Qi's developing Way (or, at least, the Way I want her to develop). She helps those around her to see things they'd otherwise miss - the moonlight illuminating overlooked details or however her Foundation develops. I see this as also impacting (narratively) their ability to - often with Ling Qi's prodding - come to some kind of self-realization; sort of like what happened with Xiulan in the last update.

The "perceive lies" path might help Ling Qi see self-deceptions in others as well (narratively speaking)... but I don't think it'll make it easy for her to convince them of them; whereas her presence/actions allowing them to see the issues themselves sidesteps the need to not flub the communication part.


Back to mechanics, Perception checks help with all kinds of sense-obscuring or -baffling techniques and their effects - not just illusions. Let's take some of Ling Qi's arts:
  • FVM: Target 6 Perception check (penalized, to boot) to leave the mist or approach user/ally (Diapson).
  • FVM: Target ? Perception check (also likely penalized) to perceive allies (Elegy).
  • SCS: Target ? Perception check (yup, penalized) to notice user in your shadow (One with Shadow).
  • PLR: Target 7 Perception check - this one is probably an illusion - to target user (Illustrious Phantasmal Festival).
Of the four, one is an illusion... the other three rely on a physical phenomenon to achieve the effect. So picture Ling Qi + Zhengui + human ally versus someone similar to herself - someone with an area of effect sensory control. The ideal situation is all three able to escape the effects of techniques like the above - without spending qi on dispels. Piercing illusions a bit better for Ling Qi herself isn't a bad thing... but if she's already got a good dice pool*, the priority is on the allies also succeeding (so they can act along with her).

Out of combat - discerning lies is handy in dealing with... well, people lying to her face (possibly applying to written lies, but I wouldn't rely on that; it's 'enhanced perception', not 'resonating with conceptual truth'). But so are Perception rolls in doing assorted missions or tests regarding tracking or evasions, or even in leading small expeditions to unruly wild parts of her future domain.


* And she kind of does. She's got some serious Perception boosts and some specialty boosts against illusions already.


EDIT: I'm not sure if this is a "internalize like a spirit beast" or "externalize like a spirit" option. If so, then that would firm up my preference for the one that's more like the latter - since with the music, environmental effects and such that seems more like the path Ling Qi will take.
 
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